In the Company of Crows and Ravens [IN THE COMPANY OF CROWS & RAVE]

by John M. Marzluff

From the cave walls at Lascaux to the last painting by Van Gogh, from the works of Shakespeare to those of Mark Twain, there is clear evidence that crows and ravens influence human culture. Yet this influence is not unidirectional, say the authors of this fascinating book: people profoundly influence crow culture, ecology and evolution as well. John Marzluff and Tony Angell examine the often surprising ways that crows and humans interact. The authors contend that those interactions reflect a process of 'cultural coevolution'. They offer a challenging new view of the human-crow dynamic, a view that may change our thinking not only about crows but also about ourselves. Featuring over 100 original drawings, the book takes a close look at the influences people have had on the lives of crows throughout history and at the significant ways crows have altered human lives.

Genres: Nonfiction, Nature, Science, Animals, Birds, Natural History, History

Paperback

First published January 1, 2005

About the author

John M. Marzluff is professor of environmental and forest sciences at the University of Washington and is the author or coauthor of several books, including In the Company of Crows and Ravens; Dog Days, Raven Nights; and Welcome to Subirdia.

Reviews

[Zorlon Zorlon · Rating 4 out of 5]

I know fuck-all about birds of any sort (save the rhea, subject of my forthcoming African travelogue, "Ghana, Rhea: Travels with a Flightless Bird") but, the dictates of being a fiction-writer often mean that you don't get to read whatever you want, you have to read what you need. Always striving for authenticity, I read this book to hopefully get an insight into the ways that crows, ravens, and all those other corvids (I can smugly toss this just-learned term about like a blow-up doll) have influenced human culture (yes, yes, Poe fans, I hear you but, look, I'll be frank, the guy shagged dead people) and, yes!, there's a whole chapter on these birds' roles in religion, superstition, and culture, a chapter that is, in fact, wanting. But what's great is the rest of the book!
Leaving aside the fuzzily elucidated ideas of coevolution and the obligatory save-the-birds-save-the-humans shtick, there is an immense value to this book in learning about another species that isn't us. Here you can learn how these birds evolved, how they're different, how they move, communicate, love, kill, and interact with people. For these reasons, I'd gladly recommend this book. Definitely written with the layman in mind.

[Jam · Rating 2 out of 5]

Basically, this book was not as interesting as it should have been, given the subject matter. Corbids are fascinating on a bad day. Some species use tools (some even make their own), they can recognise their own reflection as themself, they're sociable with weird rituals, many species adapt brilliantly. They talk in distinctive ways and have been known to name people. They survive in deserts and the Arctic and every where in between.

More than that, they're part of human culture and mythology around the world. Myths about them, positive and negative, abound. They make the world, they steal the sun, they ferry souls to the afterlife, they lie and cheat and save.

So a book about them should not be a struggle to read.

The book isn't anecdotal enough to be easy read, but it's not sharp enough to be interesting scientifically. There are interesting bits in it, but not enough and you wade through words to get to them. Stuff on the language is interesting, myths around the world, different types of corbids and different adaptations (crows in Japan using cars to crack nuts, for example), mating, behaviour-- it's all fascinating stuff.

The problem is, you're reading the authors when really, what you want to read is the birds.

[L (just L) Swartz · Rating 5 out of 5]

I have to laugh at the Goldilocks nature of previous reviews. Too much science! Not enough science! Too long, too short. Too dense, too light. And so forth.

For me (said Goldilocks), it is just right. The broad range of information about crows & ravens suits me just fine (altho in my perfect corvid world, jays would be included too).

The speculation about human & corvid coevolution is fascinating to me. It's pretty clearly presented as speculation & as the unifying narrative, which makes me SMH at readers who say there is no narrative. I have been reading this like I read novels. It's easy to.

It is very satisfying to me to learn other historical perspectives on such a familiar creature.

When I sit 7-day sesshins, the long days of silence are frequently decorated with corvid commotion. So far, I haven't levitated or achieved oneness with all there is, but there is always a point where the crows & I become one. It will be interesting to sit with the knowledge I've gained from "In the Company" at the next sesshin.

P.S. The paperback reproduction in the edition I'm reading does Angell's drawings no favors. This is sad.

[Cheryl · Rating 3 out of 5]

There are so many better, newer books out there, including Gifts of the Crow: How Perception, Emotion, and Thought Allow Smart Birds to Behave Like Humans by the same author, that this early look at co-evolution can be skipped. Still, it's fairly well-written, and there are more tidbits of interest than I can sample for you here, so if you're trying to read everything in the field, go for it.

"How did crows and ravens come to recognize fluorescent orange cheese puffs as food rather than bits of plastic?" Probably the same way they learned that a McDonald's bag, rather than a brown paper bag of similar size and shape and with identical contents of fries, is the target to attempt first when both are set out conveniently. A few learned from trial-and-error, and culture taught others. Crows have culture.

Earlier peoples probably mostly ignored crows. Earlier farmers harassed and hunted them. Now people seldom hunt them, and those in suburbs and towns often even feed them. "The more unpredictable people are, the smarter crows must become." Crows are adaptable.

"Psychologist Nicholas Thompson of Clark University recorded caws from wild crows, then remixed and replayed them to crows. Depending on how he arranged a sequence of cawing--as a structured versus an unstructured composition--Thompson could attract or repel crows with the same caws.. Obviously, syntax, not just the symbol, makes a difference to the meaning." By any but the most determinedly homo-centric definition of language, crows have language.

The book concludes with advice to those who want to serve science, and the birds, and has both a bibliography and a reading list for children. And an index and lots of great illustrations.

[Denny · Rating 4 out of 5]

A fascinating look at a very smart bird. There is a great You Tube video of a little girl that befriended a crow and all the presents that were Brought to her.

[Laura · Rating 4 out of 5]

Great and slightly unsettling book. Boy was I taught wrong about non humans.

[Keely Langford · Rating 3 out of 5]

Definitely for the lay-person (wasn’t the “tone” I expected from an established scientist in the field). Also more anthropomorphic leaning than I expected in places, but I suppose to better reach a specific audience. All this to say: as a naturalist I was expecting something a bit different. It is my first Marzluff, and am curious as to the approach his other titles take compared to this one.

I also found the central argument (crow/human co-evolution) not strongly supported, but perhaps because I felt this book would have really benefitted from better editing. Arguments weren’t structured particularly well, and supportive pieces were all over the place. They should not be lawyers, but they don’t have to be. An editor should’ve re-arranged better and had a stronger red pen (more repetition than needed! This could’ve been a more condensed book).

All this being said, I appreciated the closer look at our relationship with corvids. I learned new things. I learned more about how to talk about corvids to others, so that’s a bonus too.

[Cav · Rating 2 out of 5]

Animal intelligence is of great interest to me, so I put this one on my list as soon as I found it.
I ended up being disappointed with the writing here, however. Although I am interested in the study of crows and ravens, the writing here left much to be desired for me...
In the Company of Crows and Ravens is a somewhat tragically typical science book written by a scientist: Author John Marzluff's writing style is very dry, long-winded, and unengaging.
The book begins with talk of crows and other corvids across different cultures. Marzluff also talks about the social learning and culture of crow societies, among many other things "crow" related that follow.

The corvid family; clockwise from upper right, Common Raven, American Crow, Black-throated Magpie–Jay, Steller’s Jay, Clark’s Nutcracker, Henderson’s Ground-Jay, Black-billed Magpie, Piapiac, Collared Treepie, Western Jackdaw, Red-billed Chough, and Rook :

This is very interesting material, but the formatting and writing of this book did not resonate with me at all...
I kept hoping the pace and writing would liven up, but it never did.
I would have put this one down if it were any longer.
2.5 stars.

[Hilary "Fox" · Rating 3 out of 5]

In the Company of Crows and Ravens is a very solid book that seeks to explain the various ways corvids and humans have influenced one another over the hundreds of thousands years they have shared the earth. Ravens likely lead us, and the wolves they still aid and harass to this day, to our prey and were the recipients of some of our meat due to this. Crows likely followed our nomadic tribes, helping clean up after us, harassing us, giving us gifts such as language as much as they gave us more backhanded presents such as missing goods. Did we learn deceit from them, or did their caching occur to us prior to our interactions? Questions upon questions.

We've aided corvid species, and we've hurt them. We are responsible for the spread of the American Crow as well as for the elimination of the Common Raven from much of Europe... and now we're responsible for the Common Raven's slow comeback to those cities where before they were lost. Likewise, we were responsible for the three Hawaiian crows extinctions, and now are trying to save the last of them and repopulate the islands once more. Our cities have turned crows into pests - could we help them reach more natural levels once more?

Crows have a lot to teach us, and everything that they teach us can be further used to aid us in all animal relationships. They are an ambassador species of sorts, halfway between the domestic and wild and smart enough to know that line that they tread. Their intelligence, all too obvious emotions, social structure, and ecological impact are all things we can learn from if only we take the time to listen.

They're a wonderful, strange set of birds. I can't wait to learn more about them.

For all of you looking to read this book - be advised a more current book is available in John M. Marzluff's Gifts of the Crow.

[R.S. · Rating 5 out of 5]

This is a fantastic book and is highly recommended. I am currently feeding a pair of ravens from my rural back garden in West Wales and it is a fabulous opportunity to study them up close and personal. They are collecting food for their young and have learned that I am a very soft touch when it comes to Corvus corax!

In the Company of Crows and Ravens benefits from Tony Angell's wonderful artwork and deals with both the natural history, behaviour, and folklore associated with corvids, stretching back thousands of years. I particularly like the way the authors deal with the less common species, such as conservation strategies for the endangered Hawaiian crow.

In summary, the book is an impressive work of scholarship based on personal observation by both the authors and the artist - they should be congratulated.

[Nancy Lewis · Rating 4 out of 5]

Dr Marzloff has led several field seminars at the Yellowstone Institute, so he's a local celebrity among naturalists in Yellowstone. He studied under Bernd Heinrich, and mentored Kaley Swift. He is based at the University of Washington, and since I have spent much of this summer in the Seattle area, I am familiar with many of the places he talks about in this book. And I have seen the nightly roost of the Bothell Crows first-hand, an incredible sight!

[Jessie Spradling]

yayyy i love crows thanks john

[Paul · Rating 3 out of 5]

This book fits somewhere between a popular narrative and a research overview, and unfortunately I think it suffers some of the downsides of both genres. In books like The Genius of Birds , there is an entertaining narrative, though one that I think is likely exaggerated. In this book, there is a mixture of somewhat dry reports of research findings interspersed with exaggerated claims of the importance of the research and the importance of crows and ravens in general.

I suspect that Marzluff et al are probably pushing hard against a narrative of human exceptionalism with respect to language and social learning — if you think that humans are wholly unique in our ability to undertake vocal communication and to have memetic transmission, then this book is likely a revelation. If, on the other hand, you think that it is very plausible for other animals to communicate information and to learn from one another — and if you have been paying attention to the growing body of evidence for this over the past few decades — not nearly as much of what they are talking about seems revelatory or particularly amazing at all.

I think the bits of exaggeration and puffery that annoyed me the most in this book were when the authors would make some sort of claims about the uniqueness of crows and ravens in history that seem quite off-the-cuff and not well-researched or even intended to be well-researched. They claim something about how often crows show up in languages and idioms as evidence of our deep integration with crows going back into historical time, but don't seem to make any of the obvious comparisons to idioms and words derived from things like... domesticated animals? Dog day afternoon, three dog night, dog-tired, dog-eared, dogged determination, dogfight (crows actually fight in the air! this one should have been a slam dunk for them!). Crows and ravens are interesting on their own terms. The fact that they are fantastic mimics and some of them even say human words is amazing and not something I knew before this (despite having read multiple books about or heavily featuring crows and ravens) — exaggerating their importance just loses you credibility.

If you read other books like The Genius of Birds, The Bird way or some of Bernd Heinrich's books (e.g. I have read One Wild Bird at a Time and it got me very interested in crows and ravens, though I think Heinrich has other, better books more focused on corvids) and you find you want more, then I'd go for this book, but I don't think I'd start out with it — at least not if you tend to be turned off by authors exaggerating to make their subject seem more interesting.

2.5 of 5 stars

[Sher · Rating 4 out of 5]

Book 56 2012 Reading Challenge -- A social, cultural, and natural history of corvidae: crows, jays, and ravens. The thesis of this magnificently pen and ink illustrated volume is -- crows and ravens benefit people and we benefit them. In other words we have always had a close relationship with crows, and they are keyed into us in ways that other wilds animals are not. The authors argue crows have shaped the way people live, and we have shaped how crows lived. These terrifically smart birds have become experts at exploiting resources from us. Also, crows share "similar traits and social strategies" with humans. Crows, ravens, and jays use tools- they figure out how to get what they need. They are very social and can actually be devious! Hence the raven's name the trickster in folk tale. A wonderful book for the general reader who is interested in North America's smartest birds. You will see crows in a new way -- guaranteed. Lots of research and examples of work with crows cited. Entertaining and thought provoking.

[Maggie Schultz · Rating 2 out of 5]

This book has a lot of really interesting information and ideas, reported in a very dry way. The content is interesting and there is enough speculation and opinion included that this is not really a science text, but reading it feels like reading a scientific paper. It is tough to get through, and parts of it really seem like the author was stretching facts to the breaking point.

[Tami Dahlgren · Rating 5 out of 5]

Fascinating

[Becky Loader · Rating 4 out of 5]

Everything I ever wanted to know about Corvids...and more.

The drawings are very nice, and the use of black/white makes them very appropriate for the subject matter.

[Daunte Gaiter · Rating 3 out of 5]

As if I needed another reason to be scared of birds. Only to find out that these things are organized, have feelings AND HAVE FUNERALS?? See, I used to tell people that these birds were picking on me and they know I don't like them. "Nooo" they said "your paranoid" they said. But guess what, not only were they plotting against me, they were holding counsel meetings and uploading their war plans to a Google Share document to send to other birds. Like honestly bro for what..... why are these things so smart? Like my dog can't even remember to pee outside meanwhile these birds are sharing stories and folk tales with each other.

[Aneesa]

This book was published several years before Gifts of the Crow. I read the chapter on "Social Customs and Culture of Crows," although there is also a chapter on crow language which looks interesting. But it is just too heavy to properly hold. A list of "Children's Books That Involve Crows and Ravens" at the end.

ETA: j/k I read the chapter on communication too.

[Erika · Rating 4 out of 5]

Intersting stuff..Never knew crows hold executions of their own and gather around to watch.

[Correen · Rating 4 out of 5]

Targeted at the general public, this book provides a general description of corvids and their interaction with humans. The author starts with cultural considerations followed by a general identification of corvid species with emphasis on crows and ravens and our use of corvid images in art, language, literature, and legend. He then changes tone and in what I found his most interesting portion of the book, provides observations of crows and ravens that detail customs and communications of the species. Here he discusses some research about the meaning of various sounds -- caws, orks and others. He ends his book with a section on the co-evolution of crows and ravens with human and other hominids.

The book is easy to read and yet contains a significant amount of information. It also has beautiful black and white illustrations that greatly enhance the reading experience.

[Kirsten · Rating 5 out of 5]

This is a fascinating study of crows, ravens, and other corvids, and the way that they and humans have co-evolved. The authors make strong arguments for the ability of crows in particular to learn socially and even use tools. There's also a lot of fascinating stuff about the ways that humans have changed our environment in such a way that encourages crow population explosions, often at the expense of other wildlife. The book is liberally illustrated with beautiful pen and ink drawings, although Ehrlich is much better at drawing birds than he is at drawing human figures and backgrounds. It's a great book, and if you've read and enjoyed Bernd Heinrich's studies of ravens, I highly recommend this one.

[Katey · Rating 5 out of 5]

In my current, more hardcore obsession with crows and ravens, this book hit the spot. Marzluff is one of THE scientists that can write with accuracy and experience about corvids, and as this book was published in 2005, is a few years before his experiments that demonstrated facial recognition capability in American Crows (this concept is alluded to so I got geekily excited with knowing the "spoiler"). It's heavily noted and referenced, and the book itself is quite aesthetically pleasing- the black and white pen/ink drawings against the white of the pages was beautiful, and I also approve of the font choice.

[Kerfe · Rating 4 out of 5]

I was attracted to Tony Angell's illustrations. I also thought the chapter on myth and art would be interesting, and it was. But I actually ended up reading the entire book.

The authors emphasize the complex interactions and influences that crows and humans have had on each other throughout recorded history, and place them in the broader context of our connection to the ecology of the planet. Preaching to the converted, in my case, but their presentation is both clear and engaging. And crows prove to be quite entertaining as well.

[Jared Della Rocca · Rating 2 out of 5]

Marzluff and Angell give a very thorough treatment to the scientific and literary aspects of crows and ravens. For me, though, the scientific was a little more than I needed, and I found the writing to be a bit scattershot. For instance, each chapter didn't seem to have an organic tie to the one before or after it. And the literary aspects were either given brief touches in the chapter devoted to them, or intermingled into the scientific discussion. I felt the book could have been more focused and shortened without detracting from the overall effect.

[Linda · Rating 4 out of 5]

The authors, a scientist and an artist, explore hypotheses about cultural evolution between humans and crows throughout history. A wonderful, beautifully illustrated, amalgam of science, myth, and culture, both human and corvid. Definitely should be read by anyone who wants to know more about these beautiful, intelligent, and mysterious animals who have been by our side since we first showed up on earth.

[Kathryn · Rating 2 out of 5]

Somewhere in here, there was an excellent book in need of a ghostwriter. Unfortunately, this book was written by scientists, and reads like it was written by scientists. There were some interesting parts, but it was pretty unfocused, long on speculation, and light on data.

[For The Novel Lovers · Rating 4 out of 5]

Book Review

Title: In the Company of Crows and Ravens by John M. Marzluff

Genre: Science, Nature

Rating: 3.75 Stars

In the Company of Crows and Ravens was a particularly interesting book especially if you live somewhere in the world where these birds are a common sight as you will see them differently afterwards. The book primarily looks at crows and ravens in the biological and scientific sense, what sets them apart from other species of birds, why are corvid both vilified and revered around the world and many more aspects of them. The thing that drew me to this book was it focuses on one of the more intelligent species of birds next to parrots and they also rank high in intelligence when compared to primates and mammals like us.

Most of the book breaks down the crow into different components such as vocalizations, appearance, diet, breeding habits and much more. However, most of these sections are contrasted with the raven and how we influence crow behavior as much as they influence ours. Many people will be aware that crows and ravens are part of the corvid genus which includes far more species than many might be aware of. We know they typically tend to be black birds, although this isn’t the case with some as they have an iridescent coloring to their feathers which only appears black in certain lighting conditions. We know they are intelligent birds and crows are one of few species that have adapted to our modern, urban environments alongside pigeons, seagulls and foxes. However, our cultural relationship with crows and ravens has changed many times over the course of human evolution and researchers have even begun noting that our choices and behavior influence how the crows behave.

For example, crows only defend their immediate nest areas which is significantly smaller than that of the raven’s which means they can thrive and increase their population size even in densely crowed urban areas. This comes down to an abundance of shelter and food resources which are the only things crows need to breed effectively. Scientists and researchers have seen this firsthand where ravens have dominated a forested or wild area, but as it is torn down to make way for urban development, they are replaced with crows who seem to follow humans in terms of where they settle. It is theorized this is because crows have come to understand humans and how we throw away a cast amount of food that they can make use of. This co-existence has influenced the perception of crows, once when humans were hunter gatherers they might have been seen as a nuisance, fighting for the same food source but they were also a great help in maintaining environments as they would eat any waste. This is still seen today as crows will often feast on garbage and roadkill meaning they provide an essential cleaning service that would otherwise fall to people at great expense.

However, it is their eating habits that have altered the way they have been viewed. Many birds like crows are now seen as vermin because they often consume rubbish and the dead, but this accounts for a small portion of their diets as they still consume, eggs, other bird’s nestlings, seeds, nuts and everything in between. Much like the urban fox, crows are seen as a problem in certain areas of the world and efforts have been made to bring down their numbers through force, by shooting them but nothing has seemed to work. However, some scientists have proven the only reasons crows will leave an area is due to either declining food resources or an increase in predators such as hawks. In the UK, hawks are rather rare and in urban areas especially those near cities or landfills will have an abundance of these birds because there are no real predators for them as they outsmart most others and a huge amount of food.

The point has been made that to keep the crow from urban areas measures will have to put in place where they can’t access food, but most current methods are easy for crows to understand and circumvent. Looking into the history of the human relationship with crows and how it has changed over time was interesting as well as what we can do to limit their numbers without killing them. However, the point is also made that there are some rarer species of the corvid genus that have become critically endangered or even gone extinct in the wild because they are given the same public attention as other species like wolves or bears and this is partly due to their public perception.

This book would be great for those interested in learning more about corvid genus or those interested in birds in general as a lot of the information and themes here can apply to other species especially those that are hunted or become rarer in the wild due to human interference. Overall, I found the book to be extremely interesting and I loved listening with the audiobook and seeing the stunning artwork featured throughout.

[Cheryl Gatling]

I listened to this on audio, and there were times when I thought it was too dry, and I missed some stuff. I thought I might go back and listen to it again, but then I thought, nah, I got the gist of it.

The gist of it, the authors’ premise, is that crows and humans have a history together that is so entwined that each has influenced the other. Sometimes this is in genetic ways. Human pressure has caused certain varieties of corvids to flourish, while others have declined, and risk extinction. Crows haven’t really influenced the genetic makeup of humans, but both groups have affected each other culturally.

Corvids have entered human language, art, and mythology. We have sayings such as “as the crow flies,” we have crow’s feet, and crowbars. We have crows in cave paintings and Van Gogh paintings. We have Odin’s twin ravens, Huginn and Muninn, that sit on his shoulder and bring him news of happenings on earth. We have Poe’s poem “The Raven.” We have ravens and crows as trickster figures in folktales.

Some people admire crows for their cleverness. Some peoples viewed them as a link to the spiritual world. Some people hate them as scavengers, as harbingers of death, and just because they are messy and steal food.

The authors also say that humans have influenced crow culture. They very carefully go out of their way to define animal culture, as the idea of animals having culture can be controversial. But crows teach things to their children, who teach things to their children. Certain crow habits are acquired through learning, not by instinct. Crows in one location may have these habits, and others not, but these habits can spread as crows observe each other.

Probably the biggest way that humans have influenced crow culture is by creating an urban and suburban environment where crows can eat human garbage, and not get shot at. Beyond that, crows have learned many specific things from people. Crows have been seen apparently playing, rolling balls back and forth, or sliding down snowy roofs. Crows have been seen flying along roadways, looking for road kill on the shoulders. Crows have placed nuts on the road where they know cars will roll over them and crack them open. Then the crows wait till the light changes before flying down to eat the nuts.

By far my favorite parts of the book were descriptions of crow behavior. In one experiment, crows were offered fried potatoes, one in a McDonald’s bag and one in a plain brown bag. The food was the same, but the birds chose the McDonald’s bag first, showing they can “read” in a way, or recognize logos and colors.

Crows recognize the researchers who capture and band them, avoiding and harassing those people for years to come, so researchers sometimes work wearing masks.

Crows have been seen pulling up fish from the lines of ice fishermen. Pull up the line, step on it, to hold it, then pull some more, step on it again, until they get to the fish.

Crows have been given a treat in a bucket in a tube, and a piece of straight wire. The crows figured out how to bend the wire, and use it as a hook to pull up the bucket.

Crows are indeed pretty damn smart. Our authors, naturally, admire them. But they also realize that crows can become overabundant, threatening the biodiversity of less adaptive species. They offer ideas for controlling crow populations. Basically, the only thing that works is locking up the garbage.

Large gatherings of crows are also vulnerable to West Nile Virus, so perhaps over time shyer crows may live longer than more sociable crows. In the meantime they encourage readers to observe and not crow behavior, and maybe become of use as citizen scientists.

[gloam · Rating 4 out of 5]

Funny & very informative. The hypothesis that corvids culturally co-evolved with humankind is fascinating. The book itself is well-constructed - it spends a lot of time discussing the endearing, annoying, funny, and impressive qualities/behaviors of corvids, especially in relation to humans and human culture; so that when it gets to issues of conservation in later chapters, there’s a sense of urgency. The spectre of colonialism hangs over a lot of it (crows named “Jim Crow”; corvid populations impacted by settler agriculture/buffalo culling/etc; native bird species (including corvids) suffering or going extinct due to invasive species & disease which occupiers introduced to Hawai’i and Guam; war & mass death affecting humankind’s relationship with carrion eaters; conservation efforts on Hawai’i and US island territories receiving a fraction of the funding of mainland conservation). Truly all things are connected and conservation is an anti-colonialist issue. I might have liked to see it acknowledged a little more explicitly, even once. But overall, a great read, raised my awareness & appreciation of the natural world immediately around me, informed me of some serious issues I didn’t know about, and gave me lots of cool facts about crows. Recommend for any enjoyers of weird birds.