A deliciously witty and inspiring memoir by One Tree Hill star Bethany Joy Lenz about her decade in a cult and her quest to break free.
In the early 2000s, after years of hard work and determination to breakthrough as an actor, Bethany Joy Lenz was finally cast as one of the leads on the hit drama One Tree Hill. Her career was about to take off, but her personal life was slowly beginning to unravel. What none of the show’s millions of fans knew, hidden even from her costars, was her secret double life in a cult.
An only child who often had to fend for herself and always wanted a place to belong, Lenz found the safe haven she’d been searching for in a Bible study group with other Hollywood creatives. However, the group soon morphed into something more sinister—a slowly woven web of manipulation, abuse, and fear under the guise of a church covenant called The Big House Family. Piece by piece, Lenz began to give away her autonomy, ultimately relocating to the Family’s Pacific Northwest compound, overseen by a domineering minister who would convince Lenz to marry one of his sons and steadily drained millions of her TV income without her knowledge. Family “minders” assigned to her on set, “Maoist struggle session”–inspired meetings in the basement of a filthy house, and regular counseling with “Leadership” were just part of the tactics used to keep her loyal.
Only when she became a mother did Lenz find the courage to leave and spare her child from a similar fate. After nearly a decade (and with the unlikely help of a One Tree Hill superfan), she finally managed to escape the family’s grip and begin to heal from the deep trauma that forever altered her relationship with God and her understanding of faith. Written with powerful honesty and dark humor, Dinner for Vampires is an inspiring story about the importance of identity and understanding what you believe.
Looooved this! Of course listened to it on audio as I do with all memoirs and it was beyond fascinating! I truly didn't want it to end and could have listened to this story for hours
this is THE best memoir i have read. her story is so heartbreaking, real, raw, and so incredibly intriguing throughout. the way she narrates the book is SO well done that i could feel her vulnerability in every moment. we love you bethanyy💘
Dinner for Vampires is everything I expected and wanted from this memoir but don’t be fooled into thinking this is a good time or a new Lestat story.
Growing up with One Tree Hill, I was absolutely enamored with our big three (Brooke, Peyton, and Haley) and it shaped my ideal for female friendships before Sex and the City ever could. It was so disheartening to see how those relationships weren’t able to transcend into the real life (on set) of Bethany Joy Lenz and to experience her first hand account of living in a cult.
I identified with this story more than I ever hoped also living in a very distinct branch of Christianity and the wild similarities between this religion and cult like mentality. We get to see how anybody can be targeted, coerced, and then ruined by these vampires especially when that someone is a growing star on one of the most exciting shows on television.
This story focuses a lot more on Joy and her time in the cult, her experiences that were shaped by them, and her struggle to get free. Don’t go into this thinking it will be like The Drama Queens Podcast at all or even Hillarie Burton Morgan’s memoir because the topic and her life is vastly different than what we have gotten to hear from these beautiful and strong women. But don’t let the heavy topic dissuade you from reading either. Through an incredibly strong voice, Joy is able to convey her story without begging you to understand but is still able to elicit so much empathy and kindness for survivors of all types. And the insights to her and Paul Johansson’s (evil Dan Scott’s) dear friendship was one of my favourite things to come from this recounting.
Thank you so much for this ARC as this was one of my most anticipated books this year and I was THRILLED to get this months before I had to start my countdown. I can’t wait for everyone to hear her story and all collectively give her a giant hug.
‘I was just a 19-year-old kid enjoying a rainy day.’
Reading Dinner for Vampires felt like discovering whole new sides of someone I thought I knew. This memoir is raw, honest, and incredibly eye opening.just as she intended. Her main goal was to spread awareness, and she does so in a way that’s heartbreaking yet real. As a huge One Tree Hill fan, I devoured this book.
“I knew I had a thousand different characters inside me and a hundred ways to play them.”
The first 100 pages felt a bit slow for me, but once she delved into her OTH experiences, I was completely hooked. She opens up about the isolation she felt while keeping so much of her real life hidden, and her honesty about Hollywood’s double standards really struck a chord:
“Actors get older; actresses get old.”
I loved how she reflected on Haley and Nathan’s relationship and how it helped her realize what she wanted for herself in real life. “She didn’t want money; she just wanted someone who wants her company.” Her on-screen love story actually shaped her perspective on relationships.
‘Do you know how many arranged marriages there are where people fall madly in love years after they are married? The Bible is full of those stories! (It’s not, BTW.)’
It broke my heart to read that her own family hadn’t even bothered to watch OTH. This is the family she was part of for 10 years, and they showed no interest in something that was so meaningful to her. Her realness made me love her even more. One of the most moving moments came toward the end when she describes finally releasing years of pent-up anger. I broke down and cried reading those final pages. Watching her find that release was powerful and hit close to home.
Incredible book and an incredible story. Loved on audiobook except I realllyyyy didn't like the random bits of singing but I also listened on 1.8 speed so maybe that's on me
This one really sucked and not in the good, gothic, brooding way you might expect from a book with “vampires” in the title..
I wanted to love Dinner for Vampires. I really did. The premise is wild: A beloved actress from a cult TV show reveals she was, quite literally, in a cult while filming. That headline alone could carry a book. But somewhere between the first few chapters and the end, I realized I kept waiting for it to bite, for it to get sharper, deeper, bloodier... anything. Instead, it just slowly drained the energy out of me, one well-written but oddly underwhelming chapter at a time.
Let me be clear, Bethany Joy Lenz is a talented writer. Her voice is articulate, raw, even witty at times. There were moments, flashes, where I felt the ache of what she went through and admired her vulnerability. But the pacing felt flat. The cult experience, while obviously traumatizing and real, was strangely repetitive. No stakes (pun intended), no real plot momentum. The vampire metaphor? Just that this so-called church bled her dry financially and emotionally. No fangs, no horror, no juicy secrets about One Tree Hill, no deep exploration of faith recovery. I just kept hoping it would turn, but it didn’t.
I don’t want to dismiss her story or pain. Her experience matters. But as a memoir, it left me hungry for more, more context, more conflict, more depth. For something marketed as a tell-all, it barely whispered.
So yeah, this might be an unpopular opinion, I really tried to love it. But I had to sit with it, feel my feelings, and ultimately say.. This wasn’t for me. It’s not bad, it’s just... bloodless and a bit boring.
I gave it 2 out of 5 stars. I felt like I really had to push myself to finish it.
Many bestselling memoirs—like I'm Glad My Mom Died, Educated and The Woman in Me—taught us how family can be manipulative and downright evil. Dinner for Vampires teaches us how "found family" can be just as bad. Arm yourself against these wolves in sheep's clothing by reading them all.
There's so much to love about this book and, to be clear, I'm not a One Tree Hill fan. I've never seen an episode or heard of Bethany Joy Lenz prior to reading this book. If you are a fan, you'll get a few pages of inside gossip about the show, but that is a very minor point of focus. This is the story about a young woman who wanted to be a good Christian and ended up nearly losing everything.
I love that she describes her situation as being in a "cult." This is the appropriate term, even though the cult was pretty disorganized and only consisted of a few players. Most people tend to think of cults as grandiose organizations with especially freaky habits.
The religious group Lenz joined sounded a lot like most mainstream churches, big and small. They did to her what most churches do to most people—use the name of God to manipulate beliefs, control lives and steal money. Lenz opened my eyes to a new definition of what cult can mean. She also made me realize that a sizeable portion of the population are probably in one without knowing it.
It's easy to read memoirs like this and judge the writer. To say, if I was in that situation, I would have gotten out years earlier. I'm sure many readers actively in a "Christian" cult have read this book and thought, "Oh my! Thank goodness my church isn't like that."
But maybe other readers will read it and have their eyes opened. Wait, my church also keeps pressuring me to make higher donations. Wait, my church also says women were made to be quiet and serve their husbands... These are not radical, fringe beliefs in most organized religion. This is what's preached every Sunday.
My mouth dropped open a few years ago when my sister told me she believes only men are qualified to be pastors. She also reasoned that, because the Bible says God created the rainbow after the Noah's Ark episode, this must mean there had never been rain on Earth prior to the flood. My sister isn't uneducated or indoctrinated by a group of weirdos. She's just an ordinary Baptist. And I'm also 1,000% certain if she read this book, she'd feel bad for Joy and be completely oblivious to the absurdity of her own beliefs and religious investments.
The point is, being in a cult is scary. Particularly because you don't realize it until your life and money has vanished and you have nothing to show for it. That Joy was able to break the spell and write about her life in a distanced way is a miracle. When I read the Leah Remini memoir Troublemaker, it was clear she had not fully escaped Scientology beliefs even as she attempted to describe the church's actions as vile. Lenz's writing portrays herself as someone more cleanly separated from these old beliefs. But I'm sure she still struggles with differentiating between solid spiritual guidance and manipulation.
All in all, I think Dinner for Vampires deserves a place among other topshelf celebrity memoirs about the dark side of family, found-family, and religion. While I would like more bestselling memoirs written by ordinary folks, celebrities have a helpful voice in this genre because they have so much more to lose. They are also targeted by religious institutions because they have such fat bank accounts. Not that churches are afraid to bankrupt anyone suspectable to their pleas for cash, of course, and it's just as tragic to me when the poor lose a few thousand as it is when these celebrities lose their millions.
One way to hopefully avoid being in an abusive, manipulative, or dangerous situation, however, is to read these memoirs and be on the lookout for signs.
This is a pretty wild and infuriating read. I cannot handle how manipulated and controlled this woman was. As a Christian, it makes me so angry how God is weaponized for the sake of power, greed and control. I absolutely love reading books about cults. Women who are former members of cults. I have read the Duggar ones and Unfollow from a member of Westboro Baptist. These have the similarity of the women growing up in the cult, and never choosing it. Joy’s account in Dinner for Vampires is unique in that she was groomed, recruited and manipulated to be in this one. If you are a fan of One Tree Hill, know that this experience doesn’t have a big part in the memoir, it is more background information. After reading this, I will be in @msbethanyjoylenz corner forever, biltmore all the way.
This really does make you think and question your assumptions about cults and groupthink. Almost none of us think we are susceptible to propaganda and influence and yet we are all hugely influenced by it every day. Maybe it isn’t religion related, but the definition of a cult can be broadened to other groupthink behavior. How many times have you said, “I just can’t believe that X actually believes _________, knowing what I know about X, I cannot reconcile how X can possibly believe both _____ and _____.”
Who hasn’t thought that?
One thing I wish she had gone more into was how this has shaped her faith today. I also like to hear more of the ways that the cult improved her life. There are a lot of good things about being in cults. That seems strange to say, but if they didn’t have positive effects, they wouldn’t be able to take advantage of people. Someday I would like to read a memoir of someone who turned into a cult leader and how they rationalized it in their mind.
Thank you to @netgalley and @simonandschuster for the ARC. Book to be released October 21, 2024
RATING BREAKDOWN Characters: 4⭐️ Setting: 4⭐️ Plot: 5⭐️ Themes: 4⭐️ Emotional Impact: 4⭐️ Personal Enjoyment: 5⭐️ Total Rounded Average: 4.5⭐️
This is such a gripping and well-paced memoir. Lenz recalls so many seemingly small and insignificant details that end up being so relevant. It felt like a thriller, only it's all true. As someone with personal experience with the Evangelical Christian movements of the late 1990s and early 2000s, so many of Lenz's experiences, motivations, desires, and language were eerily familiar and all too relatable. It's so sinister that the cult leaders were able to manipulate her based on her naivete, loneliness, and admirable desire to bring more light and love to the world. They utterly exploited her longing for real and lasting relationships.
The book is ultimately a cautionary tale with clear guidelines on what defines a cult and how cults operate. Lenz takes immense personal responsibility and shares how convincing the people who took advantage of her were. There is a lot of subtle truth woven into this tapestry, and what stood out most to me, was the danger of needing to be right, wanting to be better than other people, and needing something "special" to set you apart. This kind of separatist elitism is fodder for charismatic leaders looking to take advantage.
This is one you can read in one sitting, and then feel you immediately need to watch One Tree Hill. Technically excellent, emotionally moving, smart, and entertaining. Highly recommend to memoir lovers and pop culture addicts!
I need a minute after this one. This was way too close to home and all throughout the story I would wince at certain parts because I understood it. Types of abuse cloaked in “Christianity” and so much trauma. My respect for Bethany Joy has shot through the stratosphere. Her realness, rawness and transparency deeply resonated with me, and the part that spoke about “spiritual authority over you” hit me like a ton of bricks full force. Jezebel spirit, submissive women whether single or married and so much more. I feel I need to immediately re-listen and take notes from this one because my mouth is still open. I feel so validated and seen due to my own experience with a religious cult. These wounds go deep, but God’s Grace and healing ❤️🩹 is very real and I’m so thankful for my relationship with Christ.
This was TEDIOUS for me. Please know going in to this book that at least 75% of it describes her spiritual journey and her struggles with God. I guess I was hoping for it to be more entertaining like other memoirs I’ve read / listened to. There was very little in this about her life in Hollywood or on One Tree Hill. It was exhausting to hear her describe situation after situation where it was so obvious those around her weren’t genuine. It would have been HELL to be her parents. I’m glad she is out now, but would she be if others hadn’t acted first? Makes you wonder…
Can I give a memoir infinity stars?! Because this one is more than deserving of it.
OTH has been my comfort show for almost 20 years now, so I knew that I would enjoy hearing Joy share her story with us. What I did not anticipate was that I would have such an emotional reaction to what she went through for so many years.
This book read so differently from other memoirs. You could tell that Joy took a lot of care in how she would share this story with her audience and it was done so beautifully. The writing, the storytelling, THE AUDIOBOOK. While I am sure that the physical copy is just as good, this memoir is meant to be experienced through your ears. Joy is an incredible narrator (she really should consider narrating more books in her future) and the cameos we got from some of our favorites were such a fun touch.
My heart broke for Joy over and over again while she recounted her experience in a cult and I applaud her for having the courage to share it with us. To me, there was just enough OTH content, but I really enjoyed that the focus was on her life outside of the show while she was filming over the years.
This book was incredible and it is well worth the read, whether you've watched OTH or not.
i’m not a huge fan of one tree hill, i actually watched it for the first time last year and i really enjoyed it. i loved nathan and haley so i decided i wanted to give this a read. especially because im very fascinated by cult memoirs. i read a lot of fictional books but for some reason they don’t capture cults very well in my opinion. obviously because this was based on someone lived experience i felt it was captured well. this book was quick and i liked the timeline it talked about the events because some memoirs go back and forth. anyway i definitely recommend!
I wanted to love this but I did not. It’s like she’s the vampire pretending to speak the way she thinks a human should sound like. The tone is so curated it feels fake. It reads like a fiction author’s debut novel, including inconsistencies. The author said she didn’t watch tv growing up, but references iconic shows like I Love Lucy and Bewitched. I’m sorry but this memoir reminds me of Casey Hammer’s memoir. I am a huge One Tree Hill fan so it pains me that I didn’t like it but I received an advanced copy in exchange for my honesty.
The author uses the terms “plus sized” and “crackhead” which are really bizarre for a book published in 2024. Especially for someone on the show that made the term “size is just a number” a common phrase. Gave me the ick.
It was exhausting to hear example after example of abuse spanning 10 years to get to such an unsatisfactory conclusion. I will admit that her story is interesting and should be told. If she reaches even one person in an abusive relationship and/or cult, then it was worth it. Im happy others found it impactful, I just didn’t. I found her voice and writing style throughout the book to be a barrier. I couldn’t relate to her at all. It was like there was a wall up between the writer and the reader, even with how intimidate the details were.
I’m so sorry but I did not like this at all. This is so much more about God and Jesus and “being a Christian” than I am comfortable with. It felt VERY preachy. FYI to anyone reading because the subtitle is “life on a cult tv show” One Tree Hill takes up at most 1% of the book.
Also kind of peeved because in the epilogue she talks about a friend who said that this would never happen to her and BJL comments that yes it can happen to anyone especially smart people! Ok, whatever you need to tell yourself to keep going. But like, this would never happen to me or a lot of people. So while not enjoying the book throughout, that last bit really made me feel like she was out of touch.
Another example of her being out of touch, she said she didn’t want to do Christian movies because they are lame but then rewrote the dialogue on OTH because what they gave her “didn’t align with her values.” Girl, what world are you living in?!??
She also seemed very intolerant and judgmental of other religions. There are quite a few jabs at Catholicism, for example.
She doesn’t even really seem to have any remorse for the “cult” situation except for that she didn’t want her husband to have custody of their daughter and the money that he “stole” from the account that she had his name on. l put stole in quotes because how is someone so out of touch with their life that they don’t know 2 million dollars had been spent out of their account?!?? And even that’s a stretch because she doesn’t seem too upset about the money either.
(Also I’m so sorry to say this but I don’t think she was in a cult! She just made a lot of bad choices and seemed ignorant and naive and this “Bible study” took advantage of that.)
As a reminder to all: No is a complete sentence. At any point in time she could have said, “no I think I’ll spend Christmas with my bio family this year. No, I don’t think I want to invest in your motel. No, I don’t want to marry you, etc.”
ˋ°•*⁀➷ guys, i'm not even exaggerating,,, this took me 61 DAYS!!! to get through. SIXTY-ONE!!! and not because it was bad — but because bethany joy lenz' experience was insane, batshit, psychopathic, crazy and SO mentally draining.
and bitch, i wasn't even the one in the cult??? yet there i sat with my jaw dropping more and more the longer i listened to her tell her story. like this was genuinely just tough to listen to, knowing what they were doing to her/her life in the background and still having to listen to her rationalise them into being innocent.
moving on from all that evil fuckery (which i rebuke, thank you v much), i need to comment on how beautifully and carefully lenz writes about her journey with religion. i personally am not religious, but hearing what she went through to find, lose, and then rediscover her faith was SOO interesting, genuinely. like despite all the corruption of 'the family', she still found her own way in life and was able to restore her beliefs — & raise her daughter!!!!!!! strong women never surprise me, but they ALWAYS amaze me, period. 🙂↕️
i have to speak on how well lenz narrated the audiobook; GORGEOUS!!! like she put the act in actress, she was doing voices and putting just the right emotion into the pivotal moments, it was perfect. as i said in my update, i felt like i was being indoctrinated by that freak every time he (SHE!!!) spoke. honestly.... masterful 🤌🏼
i do think lenz putting all this into a book is so important. as she mentions in the book, by most societal standards, the cult she was in isn't even considered 'that bad', however i don't think that's the point of learning and hearing about these things. i feel it's a reminder that there are always going to be destructive people out there. they can be smart, charismatic, and convincingly in control of all the chaos they create — what's essential is you digging yourself out of the fucking trenches of absolute freaks and weirdos, and remembering the person YOU are, not the person they expect you to present. your worth is not determined by someone who happens to be shouting the loudest, THANK YEWWW ✋���
anyways, wrapping it up with the usual big fuck you i have brewing in my soul after a memoir– to every big-headed, long-nosed, bad breath, beady-bug-eyed, EVIL CREATURE involved in the pain and suffering of a human being. you all look like bin weevils (iykyk) xx
my god. this just goes to show how you NEVER know what someone is going through and unveiling that curtain, for some, can be excruciating.
i recently started watching one tree hill. from the first episode, joy was a standout actress to me and quickly became my favorite part of the show. after discovering what she was dealing with every. single. day. while starring on a tv show is beyond me.
i only knew the bare minimum amount cults from my psychology classes, and delving into my first look at someone’s firsthand experience makes me so incredibly angry. for those who didn’t ask for it. for those who trusted their peers. for the ones seeking solace and refuge and instead receive emotional manipulation and a mistrust in others at the hands of OTHER HUMANS abuse.
listening to this narrated by herself truly left me in shambles. her heart is absolutely something that shone throughout the story and i’m still having trouble grappling with the idea that this was, at one point, her reality and not just a page i can close before moving on with my life.
(no rating, but not because I didn’t like it! just feels weird rating someone’s real life story)
I listened to the audiobook and bethany joy lenz’s narration is powerful. she is so calm and steady even while recounting the most devastating experience. this is a heavy, emotional memoir about religious manipulation and the slow, painful unraveling of self that can happen in a cult.
I didn’t grow up watching one tree hill, so I didn’t come into this with any extra nostalgia, but her story still hit hard. it’s not an easy listen, but, it’s an important and brave memoir that I’m glad exists!
This felt like a retelling of chronological repetitive events, most of which could have been summarized, with not much reflection. The narration was great obviously as she is an actress.
Bethany Joy seems to possibly still be evangelical which is arguably still a cult sooo. She also has some weird takes like just because her religious group owned a motel in disrepair doesn't mean (in her words) ALL motels are "only for s*x workers and Mountain Dew truck drivers". She also throws some shade on Catholicism several times but never elaborates on what her exact criticism is and I genuinely would like to know.
Felt like I ended this without having really learned anything about her or her life.
Title is a bit misleading—this is much more about her being in the cult than it is her time on One Tree Hill, and there is A LOT of talk about her religion, more than in most cult books I've read. But this was a good read, and Joy does a really good job portraying the process of being groomed and love-bombed into a cult. Most of the cult members and/or leaders are named after vampires or vampire adjacent notable figures (Lestat, Kurt Barlow, Lucy Westenra, Mina and Harker from Dracula, and Pam from True Blood, etc.), so that's fun. If you go to Reddit you can see who most of the real players actually are.
For fans of Educated by Tara Westover, the Cultish podcast, or One Tree Hill.
My Quick Takes: - 5/5 stars ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ - Language 🤐 strong - Spice ❤️🔥 none - Content Considerations 🤔 themes of manipulation, emotional abuse, toxic relationships
The narrative throughout this book is truly the slow boiling pot. Bethany Joy Lenz takes readers on a swim through the warm water as the heat is slowly turned up and up. She navigates Hollywood and her faith journey until readers are caught with her in the boil of life inside a small, tight-knit cult.
Personally, I love learning all I can about cults. I minored in religious studies and have always had a fascination with different religious beliefs and systems. Lenz gives a personal look at her struggles and feelings navigating the different ups and downs and facets of her experiences.
While I wish Lenz had given more insight into her current beliefs and view of Christianity, I think she successfully conveyed what she set out to do with this book. As a Christian, it’s always heavy to learn about someone twisting faith into something so distorted that it has devastating, lifelong effects. I hope that Lenz has found restoration in the wake of the wicked depravity to which she was subjected.
I listened to the audio, narrated by the author, and would recommend to anyone interested in these topics.
My jaw is on the floor over this memoir. I had no idea this is what Joy was navigating while filming One Tree Hill. I guess you don’t really think that someone as famous as Joy was at the time could be manipulated the way she was by her “family”.
Before you ask — YES, I was absolutely a One Tree Hill girly. Am I still a little in love with Chad Michael Murray? Also yes. Have you seen him lately? Aged like a fine wine... SHEW. 😮💨
Okay okay... back to the book.
Dinner for Vampires: Life on a Cult TV Show (While Also in an Actual Cult!) completely blew me away. I went into this thinking it might just be a celebrity memoir with some juicy behind-the-scenes drama — but what I got was so much more. Enlightening, sad, traumatic, and straight-up WILD, this book had me stunned at what Bethany Joy Lenz was enduring while filming one of the most iconic teen dramas of the early 2000s.
And I had no idea. Zero. That just proves how good she is at what she does.
📖 What It's About: This is Bethany’s real-life story about being in a literal cult called The Big House Family while simultaneously starring on One Tree Hill.
• Joining the Cult: As an only child looking for community, she found herself pulled into a Bible study group of Hollywood creatives. Over time, it morphed into something much darker — a high-control, manipulative group led by a very specific (and scary) type of leader.
• Life Inside: Bethany married the leader’s son, had a daughter, and basically had every part of her life monitored and controlled. We’re talking minders on set, struggle session-style “meetings,” isolation, and financial exploitation. It was emotionally and spiritually draining — hence the very fitting vampire metaphor.
• Breaking Free: Becoming a mother gave her the clarity and strength to get out. Her journey to healing, self-acceptance, and freedom was raw and incredibly moving.
💬 My Thoughts:
• I’m not usually a memoir reader, so color me surprised that I loved this as much as I did. • Her writing is thoughtful and honest — there’s no dramatic flair or overexaggeration. It’s just real, and that made it even more impactful. • I appreciated how she framed her trauma, never making it feel like a sob story but rather a survival one. • The behind-the-scenes peeks at One Tree Hill were subtle, not gossipy — but somehow made everything heavier, knowing what she was going through off-camera. • I docked one star only because it occasionally felt like certain sections skimmed over details I really wanted more of — but honestly? This story is hers to tell however she wants.
Final Thoughts: If you’re a fan of Bethany, One Tree Hill, or just appreciate stories of resilience, healing, and breaking free from emotional captivity — read this. It’s not just about fame or cults. It’s about identity, autonomy, faith, and finding your voice again.
10/10 no notes! Such a clear and concise story of exactly how she came to be in the cult/exact conversations that were had. She did not mince words, I love *how* she told the story, and I love that she didn’t harp on any one idea/opinion. Joy is clearly talented at many things and telling a great story is one of them!