Lois’s answer to “My apologies if this is too personal a question.. I have read a majority of your books and just fin…” > Likes and Comments
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I don't know about that; to her, he's exotic, wise, capable, respectful, faithful--very different to the courtiers hanging about. Young men that have the attributes she finds appealing are probably off actually doing things rather than being decorative and jockeying for favour. And that's aside of a god or goddess giving a bit of encouragement.
Rene: That's all fair comment. On the other hand, Cazaril is 16 years older than Betriz and looks older than he is. He has some permanent physical damage, and throughout most of the story he seems to be dying, in an unusual and disconcerting way. Until the last few pages his position and income are modest and rather precarious. Admittedly, he does look a better prospect by the end of the book, but she was already interested long before then. Such romances do happen, but the book didn't make the case very persuasively. In the end Cazaril gets his dream wife and Iselle gets her dream husband, this is very sweet and I like happy endings, so I suppose this is my preferred ending; but I do have a little trouble believing in it. (Given that Iselle needed a husband and had only one candidate, a complete stranger, her happy ending is harder to believe than Cazaril's.)
I don't think there is any 'case' to be made, to be honest. All of his flaws mattered less to her than what she found attractive. Also, he adored her; and as much as he thought he was hiding it, I'd bet she knew. It's hard to resist someone you like who also genuinely admires you. If things had not progressed as they did, she would probably have just had a warm spot in her heart for him; but they did go through a lot together, and that counts. Plus...the gods were involved, and they tend to stack the deck. I thought Iselle's good fortune in husbands to be directly as a result of godly meddling.
Rene: Well, personal reactions to fiction are necessarily subjective: it's hardly surprising that your reaction differs from mine.
Wikipedia: "Deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly and abruptly resolved by an unexpected and unlikely occurrence." It's a built-in characteristic of the World of the Five Gods that gods are available at any time without need of a machine. These Five Gods are an original concept and I quite like them, but I also like the idea that they have "no hands but ours". Their rare direct interventions in human affairs bother me somewhat. Demons seem to have useful but limited capabilities; it's not clear what if any limitations the gods have.
Let's also not forget that the setting was such that a slightly older man "in still in his prime" at least by age if not physical condition would not be a shocking match. Among the societies that the setting is based on, it would not have even caused real comment as women usually married very young in the upper castes and, in so doing, often married older men. Let's also not forget that we're prone to viewing Caz as he sees himself: just a man trying to be solid human being while the rest of his world might have a different view as hinted by the multiple,"Oh, you're THAT Cazaril" comments. He may not wear tights or have a big "S" on his chest but he's a hero nonetheless and I would definitely find myself drawn to his company given the opportunity. Being that I'm straight and male, not in the way he draws Betriz but, much like Miles, he's a bright beacon and I wouldn't find it strange at all that others would want to bask in such a glow.
Scott: Good point, we do tend to see him as he sees himself, and he's a modest man.
Just as an additional data point (or anecdata, if you will), the first time I read CoC, I was thoroughly in love with Caz before he even made it to the broken-down mill. So Betriz falling for him was not, in any way, shape, or form, surprising to me. :)
I thank the author for the answer. I guess I just fixated on those examples since they got bunched together in order of last read.
I really do think of Desdemona and Penrics relationship as developing into an old married couple with genuine love expressed between them. It isn't just a transactional or working relationship.. the genuine sacrifices they have made for each other reflect that. I don't know how you can read that scene where Penric interposed himself between Desdemona and a God..and not think love.
It might not be a typical romantic relationship..but it is pretty close.
Evan: Pen and Des have a close and affectionate relationship, but it differs in a number of ways from what we think of as a romance. It didn't start voluntarily: Pen had no idea what was happening, and got his demon whether he wanted it or not; while Des could only choose among the few people present at the time. They're permanently together but can never touch or even see each other.
Apart from these things, I wouldn't include them in a list of older/younger romances because the difference in age is one of the lesser differences between them, and its only effect is that Des has more experience of life. As she has no body of her own, the physical aging of her body is a non-issue. Pen does get physically older, but that hasn't yet become an issue. The main difference between them is that he's a human and she's a demon!
1: The circumstances that throw two people together are pretty irrelevant to the definition of romance. Both of them had chances to dump the other and didn't take it. The definition of love is knowing someone intimately ( and Desdemona and Penric are as intimate as you could get.) ..and really really knowing them, you still want to stay and make sacrifices for them and the relationship.
2: physical aging of the body is not the most relevant issue in an older younger romance. Life experience is precisely what separates and provides hurdles in that sort of relationship...almost anyone involved in such a relationship sites emotional connection and maturity as what binds them or causes problems depending. Desdemona is hundreds of years older.
I would argue that the difference between demon and human is very blurred. The demon gets its very identity from its human hosts. ..and Penric treats Desdemona like a woman..not a demon.
3: my definition of romance seems to differ greatly from yours. All of your commentary so far seems to only bring up the physical aspects of romance and none of the emotional and spiritual. There is a lot more to romance than just " ohh they are so good looking and I find them sexually attractive ..in love"
While it is certainly not a standard bodice ripping romance novel relationship.. The feelings shared and Desdemona's reaction to Penric's intercession with the god..and the repartee between them throughout, and the practically polyamory set up at the end..all are arguments that led to my personal interpretation of a romantic relationship that by the end resembles that of a long married couple than some sort of transactional Demon/human contract.
Evan: Yes, it does depend on what you regard as a romance. The relationship between Pen and Des seems to me most akin to a successful relationship between mother and adopted son. I wouldn't describe that as a romance, and I don't think most people would, but perhaps you would. If so, I don't really mind; but it clarifies things somewhat.
Illvin, ahh. I know everybody loved Arhys best, but I love me some Illvin.
Jonathan : Thank you for the clarification of your opinion. Your earlier positions made it sound as if you were denying all human feelings between the two.
I admit this is a hard relationship to pigeon hole in any category. The romance angle isn't immediately obvious and certainly non-traditional. The mother/adopted son works for a bit, until you consider that this is a son that never ever moves away from home and whose mom is permanently intertwined in any relationship he enters into with anyone else. This is a mother in law you can't talk about behind her back.
I encourage you next time you read " Penric's Demon" to pay special attention to the ending passages for they use descriptive language that screamed " romance" to me.
Best at the end..
" You looked a god in the eyes and bore witness for me, by which alone I am preserved' She took a deep breath, through his mouth ' you looked a GOD in the eyes. .And spoke for me. There is nothing in my power I will ever refuse you, after that.'
He took that in to his ears and to his HEART "....
That scene for me strongly evoked the princess being saved by the shining white knight scene just before they go off to happily ever after.
.. luckily the author had a lot more in store than that..but that is the moment in the story where I started looking closer at the emotional/romantic aspects of the relationship and admittedly cherry picking from there on in looking for hints throughout the book.
The ending of Prisoner of Limnos where Nikys isn't sure if she is falling in love with Des or Pen and the poly relationship they set up sealed the deal for me...but I can also see where if you took the mother/son relationship angle that could be equivalent of giving away the bride ( and then living with the MIL for the rest of your life )
Evan: Thanks for your comment. I've been away on holiday and offline for a couple of weeks. Yes, I've reread "Penric's Demon" repeatedly, and the passage you quoted always makes an emotional impression on me, but exactly how you interpret the emotion is subjective. I bear in mind, as I think Pen does too, that Des is a 200-year-old demon with an accumulation of different human personalities. Clearly she experiences emotions and sometimes strong emotions, but they're not the emotions of a young woman: all or most of her experiences of life have been as a middle-aged or old woman. She's never grown up from childhood as humans do. People can experience romance at any age, so you're entitled to your interpretation; I'm just saying that I don't imagine her as a young princess.
I guess my wording there was not exactly the image..young princess definitely is not Desdemona . but the romance part at any age.. sure.
But Desdemona as Desdemona, named by Penric and blessed by the Fifth god, is in many ways changed into a new person.
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I don't know about that; to her, he's exotic, wise, capable, respectful, faithful--very different to the courtiers hanging about. Young men that have the attributes she finds appealing are probably off actually doing things rather than being decorative and jockeying for favour. And that's aside of a god or goddess giving a bit of encouragement.
Rene: That's all fair comment. On the other hand, Cazaril is 16 years older than Betriz and looks older than he is. He has some permanent physical damage, and throughout most of the story he seems to be dying, in an unusual and disconcerting way. Until the last few pages his position and income are modest and rather precarious. Admittedly, he does look a better prospect by the end of the book, but she was already interested long before then. Such romances do happen, but the book didn't make the case very persuasively. In the end Cazaril gets his dream wife and Iselle gets her dream husband, this is very sweet and I like happy endings, so I suppose this is my preferred ending; but I do have a little trouble believing in it. (Given that Iselle needed a husband and had only one candidate, a complete stranger, her happy ending is harder to believe than Cazaril's.)
I don't think there is any 'case' to be made, to be honest. All of his flaws mattered less to her than what she found attractive. Also, he adored her; and as much as he thought he was hiding it, I'd bet she knew. It's hard to resist someone you like who also genuinely admires you. If things had not progressed as they did, she would probably have just had a warm spot in her heart for him; but they did go through a lot together, and that counts. Plus...the gods were involved, and they tend to stack the deck. I thought Iselle's good fortune in husbands to be directly as a result of godly meddling.
Rene: Well, personal reactions to fiction are necessarily subjective: it's hardly surprising that your reaction differs from mine.Wikipedia: "Deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem in a story is suddenly and abruptly resolved by an unexpected and unlikely occurrence." It's a built-in characteristic of the World of the Five Gods that gods are available at any time without need of a machine. These Five Gods are an original concept and I quite like them, but I also like the idea that they have "no hands but ours". Their rare direct interventions in human affairs bother me somewhat. Demons seem to have useful but limited capabilities; it's not clear what if any limitations the gods have.
Let's also not forget that the setting was such that a slightly older man "in still in his prime" at least by age if not physical condition would not be a shocking match. Among the societies that the setting is based on, it would not have even caused real comment as women usually married very young in the upper castes and, in so doing, often married older men. Let's also not forget that we're prone to viewing Caz as he sees himself: just a man trying to be solid human being while the rest of his world might have a different view as hinted by the multiple,"Oh, you're THAT Cazaril" comments. He may not wear tights or have a big "S" on his chest but he's a hero nonetheless and I would definitely find myself drawn to his company given the opportunity. Being that I'm straight and male, not in the way he draws Betriz but, much like Miles, he's a bright beacon and I wouldn't find it strange at all that others would want to bask in such a glow.
Scott: Good point, we do tend to see him as he sees himself, and he's a modest man.
Just as an additional data point (or anecdata, if you will), the first time I read CoC, I was thoroughly in love with Caz before he even made it to the broken-down mill. So Betriz falling for him was not, in any way, shape, or form, surprising to me. :)
I thank the author for the answer. I guess I just fixated on those examples since they got bunched together in order of last read.I really do think of Desdemona and Penrics relationship as developing into an old married couple with genuine love expressed between them. It isn't just a transactional or working relationship.. the genuine sacrifices they have made for each other reflect that. I don't know how you can read that scene where Penric interposed himself between Desdemona and a God..and not think love.
It might not be a typical romantic relationship..but it is pretty close.
Evan: Pen and Des have a close and affectionate relationship, but it differs in a number of ways from what we think of as a romance. It didn't start voluntarily: Pen had no idea what was happening, and got his demon whether he wanted it or not; while Des could only choose among the few people present at the time. They're permanently together but can never touch or even see each other.Apart from these things, I wouldn't include them in a list of older/younger romances because the difference in age is one of the lesser differences between them, and its only effect is that Des has more experience of life. As she has no body of her own, the physical aging of her body is a non-issue. Pen does get physically older, but that hasn't yet become an issue. The main difference between them is that he's a human and she's a demon!
1: The circumstances that throw two people together are pretty irrelevant to the definition of romance. Both of them had chances to dump the other and didn't take it. The definition of love is knowing someone intimately ( and Desdemona and Penric are as intimate as you could get.) ..and really really knowing them, you still want to stay and make sacrifices for them and the relationship.2: physical aging of the body is not the most relevant issue in an older younger romance. Life experience is precisely what separates and provides hurdles in that sort of relationship...almost anyone involved in such a relationship sites emotional connection and maturity as what binds them or causes problems depending. Desdemona is hundreds of years older.
I would argue that the difference between demon and human is very blurred. The demon gets its very identity from its human hosts. ..and Penric treats Desdemona like a woman..not a demon.
3: my definition of romance seems to differ greatly from yours. All of your commentary so far seems to only bring up the physical aspects of romance and none of the emotional and spiritual. There is a lot more to romance than just " ohh they are so good looking and I find them sexually attractive ..in love"
While it is certainly not a standard bodice ripping romance novel relationship.. The feelings shared and Desdemona's reaction to Penric's intercession with the god..and the repartee between them throughout, and the practically polyamory set up at the end..all are arguments that led to my personal interpretation of a romantic relationship that by the end resembles that of a long married couple than some sort of transactional Demon/human contract.
Evan: Yes, it does depend on what you regard as a romance. The relationship between Pen and Des seems to me most akin to a successful relationship between mother and adopted son. I wouldn't describe that as a romance, and I don't think most people would, but perhaps you would. If so, I don't really mind; but it clarifies things somewhat.
Illvin, ahh. I know everybody loved Arhys best, but I love me some Illvin.
Jonathan : Thank you for the clarification of your opinion. Your earlier positions made it sound as if you were denying all human feelings between the two.I admit this is a hard relationship to pigeon hole in any category. The romance angle isn't immediately obvious and certainly non-traditional. The mother/adopted son works for a bit, until you consider that this is a son that never ever moves away from home and whose mom is permanently intertwined in any relationship he enters into with anyone else. This is a mother in law you can't talk about behind her back.
I encourage you next time you read " Penric's Demon" to pay special attention to the ending passages for they use descriptive language that screamed " romance" to me.
Best at the end..
" You looked a god in the eyes and bore witness for me, by which alone I am preserved' She took a deep breath, through his mouth ' you looked a GOD in the eyes. .And spoke for me. There is nothing in my power I will ever refuse you, after that.'
He took that in to his ears and to his HEART "....
That scene for me strongly evoked the princess being saved by the shining white knight scene just before they go off to happily ever after.
.. luckily the author had a lot more in store than that..but that is the moment in the story where I started looking closer at the emotional/romantic aspects of the relationship and admittedly cherry picking from there on in looking for hints throughout the book.
The ending of Prisoner of Limnos where Nikys isn't sure if she is falling in love with Des or Pen and the poly relationship they set up sealed the deal for me...but I can also see where if you took the mother/son relationship angle that could be equivalent of giving away the bride ( and then living with the MIL for the rest of your life )
Evan: Thanks for your comment. I've been away on holiday and offline for a couple of weeks. Yes, I've reread "Penric's Demon" repeatedly, and the passage you quoted always makes an emotional impression on me, but exactly how you interpret the emotion is subjective. I bear in mind, as I think Pen does too, that Des is a 200-year-old demon with an accumulation of different human personalities. Clearly she experiences emotions and sometimes strong emotions, but they're not the emotions of a young woman: all or most of her experiences of life have been as a middle-aged or old woman. She's never grown up from childhood as humans do. People can experience romance at any age, so you're entitled to your interpretation; I'm just saying that I don't imagine her as a young princess.
I guess my wording there was not exactly the image..young princess definitely is not Desdemona . but the romance part at any age.. sure.
But Desdemona as Desdemona, named by Penric and blessed by the Fifth god, is in many ways changed into a new person.
It seems rather unlikely to me that Betriz would be attracted to Cazaril in the circumstances; but I'm sure stranger things have happened in reality. Unlikely doesn't mean impossible.