Lois’s answer to “I'm rereading the Penric stories yet again, enjoyment undiminished, and it seems to me that Nikys h…” > Likes and Comments

That's too bad. I would be thrilled with an entire novel of Penric, Nikys and child(ren) day to day. When I reread Orphans and Physicians I go over the snippets with Nikys several times. Sigh

Thanks for the extended reply! I agree that Nikys as a wife is not a problem for her or for Penric: she's happy, he's happy. However, her only function so far in terms of fiction has been to restrict Penric's mobility: he's less free to roam than he was before. From your point of view, it must be somewhat easier to write stories about Penric-single than about Penric-married. I wouldn't blame this on the genre: it's a problem anywhere in fiction, when a hero who has adventures gets married. For example, in Margery Allingham's novel "Sweet danger" (1933), Amanda is a delightful character, full of vitality. Later in the series she marries the hero, and he continues adventuring while she mostly stays at home, her character wasted from a fictional point of view. A solution sometimes adopted is to skip at least a few years in the series, until the children are old enough to participate in the story. For example, Elizabeth Peters allowed her heroine Amelia Peabody to get married and have a son early on, but after a short pause she continues adventuring and her son participates actively. However, it seems to me that Nikys does adventures only reluctantly.

You may want to rephrase: "her only function so far in terms of fiction has been to restrict Penric's mobility: he's less free to roam than he was before."
I think you meant "Penric chooses to be home with his loving family."

Staying home does make for less sword-fighting, which is why it mostly happens at the end of fantasy books, the "Happily Ever After" of fairy tales. I absolutely "blame this on the genre" - it's is NOT a "problem anywhere in fiction, when a hero who has adventures gets married." As you said, in the Amelia Peabody books we see a wife and husband adventuring and parenting together. However, that is a mystery series which publishers think is mostly read by women (note, I think publishers are usually wrong about assumptions!). Another great book with married adventurers is the Parasol Protectorate series by Gail Carriger - they are supernatural fantasy/Romance and so, not held to the arbitrary publisher rules of the Fantasy genre.

Marriage is the next adventure, but since publishers think fantasy fans aren't interested in domestic bliss, we hardly ever see our hero's "Happily Ever Afters". I wish publishing would embrace domestic fantasy - How cool would it have been to have a book of Sam Gamgee and Rose with their little hobbit kids in the Shire!

If we want more fantasy books with examples of happy couples and domesticity, we need to get publishing to see there is an audience ready and waiting! Go buy more fantasy that fits the bill :)

Hello Leah! You misunderstood my comment: I didn't mean that Penric is champing at the bit, keen to move to another country; he may be very happy to stay home with his loving family. What I meant was that the author is now less free to deploy him elsewhere, except for short trips; it's a constraint on the set of stories that can be written about him. And it's constraint because Nikys clearly wants to settle down and stay put for some time. If she were an Amelia Peabody, there would be no such constraint.

I agree it will be a change to write! Any a character's life changing is a new challenge to an author. Good thing Lois is so awesome ;)

In my comment, I was trying to point out the language you used, (and that is prevalent in fiction and many places), that seems to blame a women for limiting a man's actions. That the wife is the reason the man isn't "going out" anymore, that the man is "henpecked", " on a short leash", "has a ball and chain", etc.
I know you didn't use those, but please be aware of your language. They are both "less free to roam" if they have a kid, but that is an equal decision, and not the wife's fault.

Of course, in some books (or real life) bad relationships have less equality of choice, but lets Penric and Nikys credit.

But why does Nikys need to be an Amelia Peabody? Why can't she be an Evelyn? Evelyn & Walter's choices are just as valid. Sounds like Pen is a Walter if he's spending his time in his study translating.

Remember, Amelia left Ramses in England for several years when he was young. The story didn't simply time jump ahead to allow him to join in, though his precociousness was certainly used as an excuse to incorporate him at a younger age. And to Lois' point, once they do bring him along, all he does is cause additional chaos.

Additionally, as a note: Crocodile on the Sandbank was originally written as a standalone, which finished with Amelia married and pregnant. It wasn't a matter of "allowing" anything, Peters had to work around the story as written, and thus the constraints you reference. This is likely why Amelia isn't particularly motherly with young Ramses, a point that the character both notes and semi-regrets. Evelyn, who loves children, facilitates Amelia's freedom to travel by taking care of Ramses.

But those are the decisions that Peters made for her characters. Considering that Lois now writes what she wants, when she wants, I trust that she knew what she was setting up.

Um, I'm not assigning blame to anyone, and Nikys has no need to emulate Amelia Peabody. I'm just pointing out that Penric as a bachelor seemed willing to move from country to country as his career took him, and the author could therefore move him around to give readers a look at various different countries. Nikys seems less willing to move around, which seems to mean that Penric will be based in Orbas for the foreseeable future, which somewhat constrains the stories that can be written about him. I also note that we see much less of Nikys since she got married; but this may just be because we've had a couple of stories in which she didn't happen to fit.

It's true that, as one door closes, another opens: for example, it's now possible to write a story about the family life of a sorcerer. In the future, there may be one or more children, who have potential as characters in their own right. Going back to Amelia Peabody, her son Ramses was (as a child) the most entertaining character in several books of that series. Incidentally, looking back, it seems that I initially started reading the Peabody series because it was recommended by my mother…

Rereading "The physicians of Vilnoc" today, I saw that Penric and Nikys already have a baby daughter—I'd forgotten! Oops.

Personally, I love it when authors turn the expectations of a genera on it's head. Whether we're talking about something akin to GJ&TRQ, Aaronovich's Rivers, or Kingfisher's Clockwork/Paladin's/Sword world, it's fun to watch things go differently. I should also add in Carriger's stuff too for the flipping things on their ear. Anyway, I love getting a different take on what's "story worthy". I'm thrilled to see what Lois will choose to explore next partially because she doesn't make "the standard" choices about not only what happens but is worth narrating. PS. As a side note, I was very frustrated with Kingfisher's latest Paladin entry because it ended too quickly; no post denouement. Considering everything going on with logistical difficulties for Ishtvan and Clara, I wanted details, dammit! Romance is more fun with a bit of the domestic bliss included after all the tension, assuming the writer has the skill to make it work. Maybe I've just gotten spoiled.

Hello, Scott. I read various different genres, and I don't think this is a problem of genre, it's a problem of fiction in general. Most readers of fiction, I think, expect a story to have a plot. It's possible to write a story about someone making clothes and looking after a baby, but giving it something recognizable as a plot, that readers would find interesting, is a challenge. So far in the Penric series, the challenge has been avoided, and instead Nikys has been sidelined. It is, after all, a series primarily about Penric; although I suppose that could change. The conventional solutions would be (a) to leave Nikys permanently sidelined, or (b) to bring her back into the story when the child or children are old enough to participate. But unconventional solutions are possible, such as writing one or more stories about Nikys and her domestic life.

Or maybe it's a matter of perception, which is slightly different for different readers of different backgrounds. From my point of view Nikys is not sidelined at all, nor is she a problem for the plot/author. She may be an anchor for Penric, but this is how life is - someone has to tend to the basic needs of living things. Unless someone prefers neglect over life. My impression is that this is Nikys's choice, not her fate and not a dead end. I especially cherish this unique side of Lois's books - they don't shy away from the realities of life for the sake of the genre/tropes/readers' expectations. And genres change because of this unique, and I must say - unusual and highly intelligent - point of view. Lois does not kill off mothers for protagonists to start their journey, she makes mothers the role models they should be, given all the right circumstances. There are also female protagonists (very unexpected for some people). Or joint male/female protagonists, as is the case with Penric. I also love how Lois writes male characters. So far Lois has transformed, and for the better - the fantasy genre (no small feat), the sci-fi/space opera thing, the Regency romance, how you write explicit sexual encounters, and a few readers which are now spoilt forever and cannot read cheap productions any more. There are also those readers of Penric who actually miss Nikys, just acknowledge she's currently otherwise occupied. Also graciously not intruding on Penric's professional life.

Oh, examples - from the closest source: well Cordelia with both Miles's replicator and with Gregor as a .. seven-year-old? Also Cordelia with her natural birth plan... Alice with unborn Ivan. Elli with her cell donation. Fawn. And Ista who was very much trying to keep her children safe. All main characters, these. There are small children practicalities in The Flowers and in The Orphans. And Mile's brood... And Ekaterin's son (not a side characted but a real decision factor). The fact that Nikys does have a daughter results from very skilled magic too - not an easy thing. Someone would argue that Penric does whatever he is doing for Nikys, not despite Nikys.

Since we are all the heroes of our own stories, I wonder why do people decide to have families at all - it is not conducive to fame, fortune and adventures.

Brzk, thanks for your comments. After all this discussion, I've come to the conclusion that my opening question was wrong: Nikys is not a problem. From my point of view as a reader, she's been sidelined, because we no longer see much of her since she got married; but I never thought of that as a problem for her, and it's no more of a problem for me than various other characters who've appeared and then disappeared from the story.

It's a bit of a problem that Penric is now somewhat less free to roam than he was before. But this tends to happen as people get older: they settle down, for one reason or another. I shouldn't really be shocked that it happens to Penric. It happened to me, after all: I've lived in 12 different countries, but I got married in 1997, and since then my home has remained in one place.

Brzk: "Since we are all the heroes of our own stories, I wonder why do people decide to have families at all - it is not conducive to fame, fortune and adventures."

The answer is simple: because we conduct our lives for our own benefit, and not for the benefit of some hypothetical reader. I want to be safe, comfortable, and happy: I don't want to have the sort of dangerous and uncomfortable adventures that I read about in fiction. Fiction and real life are different: vive la différence!

I'd like to have dangerous and uncomfortable adventures. Also, love leaving, as a principle. But i'm living the safe life regardless... which takes as much effort as adventuring, if less recognition.

Brzk: "I'd like to have dangerous and uncomfortable adventures." You'd be a better fictional hero than me, then.

My life has had its points of interest, as non-fiction, but it would be dull if read as fiction: it doesn't seem to have any plot.

good stories have been made with less :), some of them play in a single room

Maybe consider that the books you want to read are not necessarily the books this author will want to write?

While Pen & Des is the closest to episodic of her series, it makes sense to me that it would begin to incorporate the same character development that she writes so well. I love the Vorkosigan books because of this: as characters age, their motivations, actions/reactions, lifestyles change. Which affects plot lines, making each book a different kind of joy to read.

But also, she has occasionally written these novellas out of chronological order. So, the "problem" of Penric living in one place... really isn't. It's her sandbox.

Laura: "Maybe consider that the books you want to read are not necessarily the books this author will want to write?"

There's no maybe about it: this happens with all authors. I usually like only a minority of any particular author's works. LMB hits the spot more often than most. Vernor Vinge is relatively reliable, but not very prolific.

As you say, normal everyday life is not really story material, whoever’s everyday life it is. It’s something out of the ordinary that makes a story, and I’m glad that Nikys became a full part of the story again in “Demon Daughter”.