Gilles’s Comments (group member since Jan 14, 2013)

Gilles’s comments from the Should have read classics group.

Are you suggesting that Cyprus is collapsing as America does in AS?

I look forward to your comments on Atlas Shrugged.

Dustin wrote: "Hey, everyone!

I good friend of mine recently sent me the link to the Mike Wallace interview. It's really quite eye-opening, to say the least. Since we're discussing the book, I thought I'd share..."

Dustin, I have seen many youtube videos of Ayn Rand and of both her supporters and critics. It's the reason why I find it difficult now to read Atlas Shrugged and assess it independently of what I know of Rand's philosophy.

If I was to read Catch-22 again, I think I would read the chapters in random order. As I recall, each chapter tells the same story from a different person's viewpoint with the same scenes repeated over and over. It seems the order in which you read the different chapters does not matter. Was I allucinating? I know of only one other novel structured this way: The Vigata's Opera by Andrea Camilleri.

Moron was a wrong generalization on my part. I should have said that practically all the characters have one or many major flaws, pushed to extreme, to which Dadny and Hank are confronted. Compared to these people, D&H obviously always appear smarter, wiser, virtuous, etc.

I`m about halfway through the book now. I feel that one way Rand is intellectually dishonnect is that she postrays so many of the bad guys as simply totally ignorant of basic economics. They`re not evil, they`re just plain stupid about economics. It`s not realictic to have so many people with influence in running the country who do not undertsnad that an organization (private or public) cannot continu to produce if the cost of production consistently exceeds its revenues. At Taggart InterContinenat, that means increasing wages, reduce tarif, reduce the profitability of each train by limiting its length, reduce the revenues by reducing the frequency of trains when demand woud support it and maintaining service when demand does not support it, and it goes on and on. There are too many characrters in the book who don`t understand these basic notions for it to be realistic and they go on insisting for production as a public service. 5th graders know better.

My favorite quotes:

(about sailors) Their minds are of the stay-at-home order, and their home is always with them - the ship; and so is their country - the sea. One ship is very much like another, and the sea is always the same. In the immutability of their surroundings the foreign shores, the foreign faces, the changing immensity of life, glide past, veiled not by a sense of mystery but by a slightly disdainful ignorance; for there is nothing mysterious to a seaman unless it be the sea itself, which is the mistress of his existence and as inscrutable as Destiny. For the rest, after his hours of work, a casual stroll or a casual spree on shore suffices to unfold for him the secret of a whole continent, and generally he finds the secret not worth knowing. The yarns of seamen have a direct simplicity, the whole meaning of which lies within the shell of a cracked nut. (chapter I)

(about Romans and imperialism)
They were conquerors, and for that you want only brute force - nothing to boast of, when you have it, since your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others. They grabbed what they could get for the sake of what was to be got. It was just robbery with violence, aggravated murder on a great scale, and men going at it blind - as is very proper for those who tackle a darkness. The conquest of the earth which mostly means the taking it away from those who have a different complexion or slightly flatter noses than ourselves, is not a pretty thing when you look into it too much. What redeems it is the idea only. An idea at the back of it; not a sentimental pretence but an idea; and an unselfish belief in the idea - something you can set up, and bow down before, and offer a sacrifice to...

(about hunfer)
No fear can stand up to hunger, no patience can wear it out, disgust simply does not exist where hunger is; and as to superstition, beliefs, and what you may call principles, they are less than chaff in a breeze. Don't you know the devilry of lingering starvation, its exasperating torment, its black thoughts, its sombre and brooding ferocity? Well, I do. It takes a man all is inborn strength to fight hunger properly. It's really easier to face bereavement, dishonour, and the perdition of one's soul - than this kind of prolonged hunger. Sad, but true. And these chaps, too, had no earthly reason for any kind of scruple. Restraint! I would just as soon have expected restraint from a hyena prowling amongst the corpses of a battlefield. (chapter 2)

Read it a long time ago. I'll watch Apocalypse Now instead.

I had a thought today. Did anyone notice or wonder that if Dagny and Hank look and sound so good, does it have anything to do with the fact that they are surrounded by complete morons?

Did Rand have to go this far? : make everyone else an idiot so her two heroes would stand out as saints.

If normal and average decent people were surrounding Dagny and Hank, I bet their characters would not seem as likeable.

Lisa wrote: "That is a great point Gilles! Cruelness and lack of empathy do not have to go together. In individuals, most of us can probably agree that lack of empathy is a big problem. In the larger context..."

I think, and this is debatable, that History has shown that it is never enough to rely on voluntary philantropy alone to ensure the under priviledged can have decent lives. The market consistenly fails to provide affordable housing to the under priviledged (most municipal governments have to step in).

I happen to live in a democracy where people accept to pay taxes so other people struck by fate can get some relief. Anyone, except maybe the ultra rich, may potentialy run into a series of unfortunate events that will throw them on the street. Our social safety net is there to safeguard us against such calamity. There are always abusers of the system but I believe they are a very small group and research supports my views. Of course, we all have heard anecdotal evidence to the contrary but it is anecdotal.

There are right wing political parties where I live. When people will consider that the government is too generous with the needy, we can always elect those who prone cutting back social programs.

One issue I have with philantropy is that it tends to be spotty and leaves gaps. I prefer a democratically elected government to make decisions about where relief should go. Philantropy can complement by filling gaps.

Anyway, I digress again from the book but you asked, so I indulged. I appreciate the oppotunity to exchange views on these important matters. ;-)

oops! message 55 by Camille is realy mine. Camille is my daughter and I did not realize her Facebook account was open when I initialy posted my reply..

Lisa wrote: "Gilles wrote: "Of course, another thing that bugs me in this book is the subtext: It`s alright not to care about the suffering of others. Live long and prosper (i.e. pursue your dream and f... the ..."

To be fair, I admit that I let my opinion of Rand's philosophy interfere with my judgement of the book. From this point I will try not to get the two mixed up. I`m only at the part where Dagny and Hank are getting ready for Jim`s wedding (2/3 left).

One does not have to be cruel to demonstrate absence of empathy for others. One only needs to stand aside and do nothing to help when others are suffereing. I`ll will try to find quotes in the book that support this view. More to come later.

Suzanne wrote: "I'm still only towards the first, and I do love the story, but it also surprises me how 'preachy' Victor Hugo is - in fact, I kind of feel like he wrote the story to illustrate the points he wanted..."

Hugo's is a treat for those who enjoy expansive writing. Wait till you get to the description of the battle of Waterloo at the beginning of the 2nd tome (if my memory is right). Most readers would like to tear it out unless they like military history.

A French Lit B.A. told me that Hugo was paid by the number of pages he published so the more he wrote the better for him, which may explain (partly) why his books are so long.

Dustin wrote: "Thank you for your insight and feedback, Gilles. It is appreciated. I'm not sure if I understood everything you said, but one that's crystal clear is the age-old debate: do we, as a society, want ..."

Absolutely right. Extremism is never a good thing either way. But I really digressed from talking about the book itself; I find Rand`s characters shallow and unidimentional, and either too good or evil, they just don`t seem real.

Of course, another thing that bugs me in this book is the subtext: It`s alright not to care about the suffering of others. Live long and prosper (i.e. pursue your dream and f... the rest). Amen

What a relief: we don`t have to feel any guilt anymore. For the wealthy, this is better than any revelation or atonement any religion may have provided.

Lisa wrote: "Gilles wrote: "Hi Dustin,

I'm also reading this and just started Part II. It's turning out to be what I expected and that's not a good thing. After reading about Rand and not agreeing with her ide..."

Lisa wrote: "Gilles wrote: "Hi Dustin,

I'm also reading this and just started Part II. It's turning out to be what I expected and that's not a good thing. After reading about Rand and not agreeing with her ide..."

Quote from Wikipedia:

According to a 1991 survey done for the Library of Congress and the Book of the Month Club, Atlas Shrugged was situated between the Bible and M. Scott Peck's The Road Less Traveled as the book that made the most difference in the lives of 5,000 Book-of-the-Month club members surveyed, with a "large gap existing between the #1 book and the rest of the list

Dustin wrote: "Aw, I'm sorry to hear that, Gilles.. What were you expecting that isn't good?"

Well, to start, I don't agree with Rand that the world would be a better place, as she implies, if business people would be totally free to pursue their goals unchecked by any public oversight.

Wall Street was allowed to go unchecked for a while and we know where it led us. Let me explain: Wall Street came up with the idea of Credit Default Swaps(CDS)which were not regulated. By 2007, the global credit default swaps market was valued at $62 trillion but in fact we don`t really know because most CDS are secret agreements between two parties and no one was recording them, not the financial industry, not the government (it was not regulated). In the end, too many players were so overexposed that when trouble started it just snowballed. This is what happened on this occasion where business was allowed to run free without public oversight. This case DID NOT prove that runaway business CAN wreck the system, it proved that it DID.

I`m not saying the system is perfect. It need fixing but we must not throw the baby with the bath water as Rand advocates as she is opposed to almost every kind of public constraint over business.

People have some levers to support or oppose what`s happening in society. They can vote with their feet (move to a different jurisdiction), they can vote with their wallet (buy fair trade goods) and they can vote at the ballot. In elections, every person has an equal vote. In the world of economics and business, when Bill Gates votes with his wallet, it`s not the same as you and I voting with our wallet. Yet, at the ballot, Bill Gates`vote has no more value than yours.
This is a long and vented argument leading to the following question : Do we want a society ran by unbridled big wallets over which citizens have no legal control or by responsible and democratically elected government accountable to voters? I believe evil and good is equally distributed in business and government. If you have some faith left in our democracy you know that, as people, we have some control over government than over business. I will never believe in corporations or in the un-elected ultra weathy as champions of human rights. They can only be champions of their own rights.

Apologies for a reply that may be too long.

Hi Dustin,

I'm also reading this and just started Part II. It's turning out to be what I expected and that's not a good thing. After reading about Rand and not agreeing with her ideas, I was still very curious to read Atlas Shrugged because it's the second most influential book in America after the bible.