Bill’s Comments (group member since Jan 24, 2011)

Bill’s comments from the CoS Forums group.

If there is to be a book club selection, it will have to be soon for me. Once my semester starts I'm out of commission (which is in about a month).

By way of suggestion: the books I have literally right in front of me are: Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon, Cormack McCarthy's The Road, John Steinbeck's Cannery Row, and John le Carré's The Tailor of Panama.

Hey, that hurt

Yoana wrote: "They can spend the rest of their lives preaching and nagging at each other, imagining themselves and each other superior to every other human being on earth. "

Hehehe, sounds like a typical married couple to me.

Well seriously, I am sorry you disliked it so. While I can't go nearly as far as you have, it was I suppose my least favorite Austen book so far. Even so, I guess it didn't bother me that the heroine was kind of a bitch. In fact, that may be precisely what I did like the most, although I hadn't really thought about it that way... after so many admirably wholesome damsels (endearing though they are), I guess I was pleased to see a more deeply flawed heroine. I think Emma is the first Austen heroine I've read who actually possessed and exercised control over her life in a substantial way, and perhaps that's why she doesn't seem to change to a dramatic extent.

While I think the author and all of us would agree Emma needs a bit of education, the reality seems to be that she's picking up lessons on her own rather than being entirely dependent upon the actions or influences of a man to guide her. Now, I also think Mr. Knightley is a rather too convenient influence, that she rather inexplicably ignores a little too often, but other readers evidently don't mind this. What I am sure of, which is to me the most important lesson in the book, is that Emma cultivates the ability to empathize with other people that she clearly did not begin with.

Anyway, yeah. I don't have the book anymore to re-review it, or I'd probably say more. Oh, but one more thing that you reminded me of.

Yoana wrote: "The only one I liked was Jane Fairfax, probably because I didn't get to see enough of her to get on my nerves."

I think this is also a central problem for Emma: jumping to conclusions about people she doesn't really know. It's funny you said that really, because I think the novel presents Emma's opinion about Jane in exactly the opposite light... she always disliked her, but probably, she eventually realizes, because she didn't get to know her well enough to like her. And Emma does arguably have a rather complete change of heart about Jane, doesn't she? I think that's evidence at least that Emma steps somewhat outside her self-absorption, since she realizes her unfounded presumptions are often wrong.

Ultimately I suspect Emma may change a great deal more than most Austen characters. But, the question seems to be, is what she changes into an improvement?

Good idea! I generally like that list, but I will throw out a few more suggestions, mainly since I have felt lately that I should pay a bit more attention to American literature--virtually everything I've read in the past five years has been British or ancient. (But I'm not looking to be exclusive.) Anyway, I've read some of these and some are ones I've always meant to.

Adventures of Huckleberry Finn - Mark Twain
The Great Gatsby - F. Scott Fitzgerald
The Color Purple - Alice Walker
Love in the Time of Cholera - Gabriel García Márquez
American Pastoral - Philip Roth

Hmm, good points all. I evidently wandered off in the middle of a thought in the first part of my response: yes, I agree that experience is the most influential teacher she has (that's what I was getting at about her expanded social circle before I forgot). I get the impression that before Mrs. Weston became Mrs. Weston, Emma rarely left her home and didn't socialize much, so spending time with Harriet, and at the Westons and the Bateses, and running around with Frank and Jane and Elton probably gave her a much more realistic idea (or at least a wider cross-section) of human nature than she'd previously been exposed to.

I like your analysis ultimately, that Knightly is just giving voice to things Emma is learning by herself. In that way this is less a coming-of-age novel than a... coming-of-sense one? That also helps me reconcile my original conclusion, that Emma changes step by step to become more suitable for Knightley (that is, more of a mature adult). If Emma is indeed the mistress of her own destiny, and ends up where she is by learning from mistakes and following her heart, then Knightley seems rather less predatory.

Edit: Although jeez, 13?

Yoana wrote: "As far as I've gone by now, I think I could (sort of) answer this question..."

I think your comments are really fascinating, but I wouldn't want to spoil anything or contaminate the rest of your reading, so I won't respond just yet.

Melaszka wrote: "Yes, and that's the other thing that makes the snobbery theme more palatable to me. Arguably, Emma is viewing Harriet as more of an equal at the end of the book when she leaves her to her own social circle than at the beginning, when she condescends to admit her to her social circle, under the impression that she is doing her a huge favour, and treats her as little more than a pet or a doll whom she can manipulate."

Right, I guess that's where my opinion was headed too. Harriet may be exactly the same at the end, but Emma's sensibilities have changed considerably. But why? I attribute a good portion of this to Mr. Knightley's influence, as I suggested before, but perhaps it's the expansion of Emma's own social circle.

Melaszka wrote: "I felt that a bit, but what I would say is that (a) age was a factor here, also. Mr Knightly's superior wisdom may not be a matter of gender, but of the experience which comes from being nearly twice Emma's age (b) it's not all one-way, IMO. While Emma has to acknowledge that she was wrong in trying to encourage Harriet to aspire to a lifestyle above her station, Knightley also has to acknowledge that he underestimated Harriet and that Emma chose a better wife for Elton than Elton chose himself. I think they both educate each other.

He is a tad paternalistic, though, and the bit about being in love with her since she was thirteen really creeped me out.

Well I can't argue, really, just nitpick. As to (a), after I read this I recalled a conversation that he and Emma had at some point, about (among other things) how his age gave him a greater understanding of things and their consequences:

"As to men and women our opinions are sometimes very different[...]"

"If you were as much guided by nature in your estimate of men and women, and as little under the power of fancy and whim in your dealings with them[...] we might always think alike."

"To be sure--our discordances must always arise from my being in the wrong."

"Yes," said he, smiling--"and reason good. I was sixteen years old when you were born."

"A material difference then," she replied--"and no doubt you were much my superior in judgment at that period of our lives; but does not the lapse of one-and-twenty years bring our understandings a good deal nearer?"

"Yes--a good deal nearer."

"But still, not near enough to give me a chance of being right, if we think differently."

"I still have the advantage of you by sixteen years' experience, and by not being a pretty young woman and a spoiled child."

It's hard to tell, since they're both being a bit saucy and diplomatic, but Emma is accusing him of thinking he's right by virtue of being a man. I think he rebuffs that assumption pretty well, but he doesn't go as far as suggesting they are equal in their capacity for understanding, only conceding that Emma lacks experience. And to me that doesn't really extinguish the impression of gender disparity.

I don't remember their ages offhand, but compare Mr. Knightley to someone like Miss Bates. He's distinguished, wise, and independent, and she's vapid, garrulous, and a bit dim. Neither of them is married, and yet he's able to cultivate a life for himself, and she's relegated to dependence and servility. Even someone intelligent and capable like Mrs. Weston had only a choice between employment by the Woodhouses and marriage. I think it's implied that this is largely because of her age, and so what may have been a reality in Austen's circumstances is expressed in the novel: men are perceived to gain wisdom and power as they get older, but women gain esteem from their relationships to men, and failing this they are discarded.

As far as (b), I agree that Emma's sincerity (misguided though it may have been at times) makes an impression on Mr. Knightley. But Mr. Knightley is often exactly right. He originally advocates for Harriet's marriage to Robert Martin because he knows the man ("I never hear better sense from any one than Robert Martin. He always speaks to the purpose; open, straight forward, and very well judging.") and she eventually marries him. He advises Emma that Elton was looking to acquire wealth and standing by marriage, and he does just that ("He knows the value of a good income as well as anybody. Elton may talk sentimentally, but he will act rationally."). I think Emma's opinions shift much more than Mr. Knightley's, and that these changes in opinion exist primarily to bring them closer together... so do they really reverse any of the norms and prejudices constructed throughout the rest of the novel?

Edit: Yeah, since she was 13? What the hell?

Aaaaaaah thank you for saving me from my homework! (Or you could look at it as saving my homework from me.) I didn't want it to seem like I was pouting, but I just glanced at my schedule for March and about had a heart attack.

Melaszka wrote: "I think she does begin to reassess her ideas of what makes a person valuable. She changes her opinion about Robert Martin's worth. This is, I think, partly under Mr Knightley's influence, but also because other people's conduct causes her to question her assumptions about the relationship between social status, wealth and personal worth: e.g. Mr Elton, whom she had assumed to be Martin's superior, because of his birth and education, proves by his heartless treatment of Harriet and poor choice of wife that birth and education are no guarantee of personal worth "

[...]

"Her snobbishness. My biggest problem with this novel is that she doesn't change enough in this regard and the ending almost seems to justify her snobbishness. e.g. although it seems that she learns not to be so dismissive of people of low social status, because she realises that Robert Martin is good enough for Harriet, after all, in many ways the narrative makes it seem more like she had an inflated view of Harriet's worth than she had an unduly low view of Martin. The narrative seems to imply that it would have been kinder and more appropriate of Emma to have befriended Jane Fairfax (an impoverished gentlewoman) than Harriet (the illegitimate daughter of a tradesman) and the discovery that Harriet's father was only a tradesman, not the gentleman Emma imagined seems to be sued as a justification for Emma cooling her friendship with Harriet!

The "happy" ending seems to do more to affirm class boundaries as the natural, proper order than it does to question this. "

I had a similar reading overall, and I think the Harriet issue is one of the big problems (that is, problems I had, not necessarily problems in the narrative itself). On the one hand I believe Emma does care for Harriet as much as she claims to, and she really has remorse for each instance of her misguided influence, but you may be right that class disparity implies a level of detachment. I.e., Emma seems to treat Harriet as a kind of pet she can dress up and train to behave like a lady, with the implicit understanding that she would never actually be one. I'm not sure if Emma ever actually expresses this notion, but at various points she demonstrates pride in her accomplishment in molding Harriet, and indignation that her efforts aren't being recognized in the proper light.

What I can say in Emma's defense--in re: using Harriet's origins as justification for discarding her, that is--is that in the final approach to the climax, Harriet had evolved somewhat (perhaps not literally, but in Emma's estimation). I mean I must consider that Emma's relationship with Harriet was first predicated on pity, and then on guilt. They had a close relationship but it never seemed like a very strong one, though Emma's disastrous machinations should have destroyed it and somehow didn't. So through Emma's efforts, I think, Harriet had been repeatedly enabled to believe she was entitled to do as she pleased and wish for things that might not be generally smiled upon. Now, as a modern American I think the set of restrictions is odious, but they are a fact of life in the world of the novel: Harriet really did not have much chance of elevation except by marriage, which I think she realized, whether or not she was eligible for financial enrichment. Because of this Harriet unwittingly became a rival to Emma. Whether she ever stood a chance of enticing Mr. Knightley away from Emma (an attachment not yet explicitly established) is beside the point, because she expressed the idea to Emma when Emma had never even realized how she herself felt. This seemed to me like the final nail in the coffin. (Admittedly, having only read this once, I may not have paid terribly close attention to their relationship.)

But yeah, the ending really does put everyone in their proper place: Emma marries the only available social equal (who also, creepily, is a sort of father figure), Harriet is relegated to happy obscurity, Jane and Frank eagerly fulfill their otherwise scandalous engagement, and Mr. Elton is blessed with a horrible shrew. I think you're quite right about the implications of all this in class terms, which is always a consideration in Austen novels, I suppose. But much of it also gives me a less-than-positive impression of the treatment of gender.

For example, throughout my reading, I kept thinking to myself that Emma should listen more closely to Mr. Knightley. It may be my male perspective on matters of social consequence, or just that Emma sort of irked me, but I think he was generally giving her prudent advice and she should have heeded him. Why though, should a male character be necessary in this capacity? Emma certainly understood that he was often right, and could have come to the same conclusions, but pride or caprice prevented her from considering things fully. I suppose Emma does live in a bubble of indulgence as a consequence of her wealth and her father's proclivities, but she repeatedly makes errors in judgment and foolish assumptions that she perhaps ought not to have.

Well, I must say I was really glad when Mr. Knightley strongly admonished Emma for her treatment of Miss Bates, because even I, who often skimmed unapologetically over Miss Bates' soliloquies, felt embarrassed when Emma insulted her so baldly. Anyway, as paternalistic as it may seem that Emma needed male guidance, which I think the ending also affirms to an extent (it felt like she went from "I'll never marry" to "I'll drive to the church" in about ten pages), at least Emma wasn't a total pushover. Especially when compared to other Austen heroines like Catherine Morland, who in my opinion rather pathetically ate out of Henry Tilney's hand. I realize I'm complaining about this and almost supporting it at the same time, hehe, but I think that's really a strength of the novel... for every "answer" a new question presents itself.

Alright, well... I know I said I wasn't in a hurry, but I have a lot of work to do for school coming up, and I have to return Emma to the library, so my window for discussing it is just about closed. I'm glad I read it in any case.

I have a few questions that might help get discussion started. They're hardly critical, but I'm curious about other people's opinions. (What I mean is they may not be especially illuminating questions, so forgive me and let me know if you think any of them is not worth the time.) I've just picked out some thematic concepts and come up with a few thoughts:

BEWARE OF SPOILERS

The possibility of class mobility; Emma's (and others') prejudices in re: class, wealth, reputation. How, if at all, do Emma's opinions change, and what people and events influence her most? In what ways might a modern reader consider Emma a bad person? In what ways is she admirable?


Marriage (rather than love) as considered by the characters: male, female, rich, poor, old, young. A wealth of opposing perspectives on the subject of marriage are presented; what do you think the author is asserting about marriage as a social institution?


Clearly there are many differences between male and female perspectives and opportunities throughout. So I have a few more questions about that in particular:

Emma seems to be constrained by her father's eccentricity, and to an extent by Mr. Knightly's avuncular influence, but she also has relative independence that many other female characters do not enjoy (cf. Harriet Smith, Jane Fairfax, Miss Bates). Do you think, given Emma's unique position, that her actions and opinions reject or embrace the female roles that these others are bound to?

There are also some parallels related to male behavior: for example in Frank Churchill's inability to overcome his aunt's wishes and the necessity of keeping his secret, in Emma's questionable opinions about Robert Martin (and the results of how they're realized), and in Mr. Elton's cynical pursuit of a wife. Do you think the male characters in the novel are equally constrained by external considerations?

And one particular case: Are Emma and Mr. Knightly suited for each other? Are they equals?

Yoana wrote: "I personally am not finished, but I'm a very slow reader, so I'm ok with going forward if everyone else is done."

Oh that's fine though, I'm not in any hurry, I just wanted to make sure everyone remembered in the first place.

Bill wrote: "Just a quick question--are we going to be following any sort of structure, or just waiting until everyone's finished?"

So uh...

Just a quick question--are we going to be following any sort of structure, or just waiting until everyone's finished?

I'm still trying to finish Sense and Sensibility in my spare time, but I can borrow a copy of Emma immediately.

The trouble I generally have with identifying such influences is that it often turns out that what I think is an allusion to a previous work (I read a lot of British and Irish stuff now) is actually just two allusions to a preexisting British thing.

As for Jane Austen, I've read Persuasion, Northanger Abbey, and I'm in the middle of Sense and Sensibility. I have no particular preference though.

ETA: I'm also reasonably well versed in the Brontës, Tolkien, Patrick O'Brian, and a variety of American authors.

ETAA: Just in case, I would like to veto any suggestion of Ayn Rand.

Well I have rather large public and university libraries at my disposal, so I'm game even if it ends up with books I haven't read yet. I've wanted to join a book club for some time, so I really like this idea (for want of a face-to-face club anyway).