John’s Comments (group member since Apr 19, 2008)

John’s comments from the Building a SciFi/Fantasy Library group.

I'd like to respectfully disagree with you, Marc. I think The Dresden Files is a bit more uneven, in that the first couple books are not as strong as the rest of the series, while Codex Alera is a more even work, but I think Dresden rises to greater heights. Maybe it's because I'm a bigger fan of epic fantasy, but I don't think Alera is all that noteworthy in the genre, while Dresden is a very good urban fantasy (that's said with the caveat that I'm not as immersed in urban fantasy).

I guess I just feel like Butcher is stylistically better equipped for urban fantasy than for epic.

This is in part a post about an idea I wanted to bring up anyway, and it's partially a response to Jackie's post (as such, first, thank you for the kind remarks about my review).

Oh, and by way of warning, this could be considered to have spoilers, though they're largely of a thematic nature.

I was thinking about the parallels to the Roman empire, especially perhaps the parallelism between Tay-Aien and Christianity, each a monotheistic religion moving into a polytheistic one.

What was most interesting to me, though, was not any parallels that it might be possible to draw between them, but a different connection between the Empire of the Sacred Union and "the real world."

In order to get into this, let me back out a little to discuss history, with full knowledge that "history" in not "what happened" but is something more like "interpretations of what might have happened." This is probably nowhere more true than in the period I want to look at: pre-history. In the time before history (which is to say, civilization) began, human being seem to have been organized into tribes. A tribe may be relatively large or relatively small, but at its heart a tribe is profoundly egalitarian, in part because there's very little to fight over: food is freely available to be hunted or gathered, possessions are at a minimum. Chiefs tend to be people who lead because they are respected, whether that's for their hunting prowess or fighting ability, their wisdom, or simply their personal charm and charisma. Even these leaders have virtually no coercive power: if a majority of the tribe disagrees, there's very little even the greatest warrior can do to force people to do something. These leaders tend to share in the work similarly to the other members of the tribe and to reap the benefits at a similar level.

Then came agriculture, the basis for civilization. In a simplification, the ability to make more food led to more people, but it also led to locking up the food and specializing. With civilization, you rapidly develop firm hierarchies: kings and priests on top, all sorts of middle managers following them, on down to the peasants. Now, there *is* a very real difference between leaders and the led. In these hierarchies, the people at the top have control of the food supplies and the military, and now have power to impose their will upon everyone else. They also have significant material benefits.

All of civilization is the heir to this sort of thing, and we see the image stamped on most of our social institutions, from businesses to schools to government. True, in the past few hundred years, we've created ideals of "freedom" and "equality," but we still perpetuate social structures that inhibit both in ways both big and small.

I bring all this up because it was the lens through which I read the conflict between the empire and Shehaios. Very early, when looking at Orlii's mind and those of other Caiivorians, Kierce notes the fundamental difference in the way they think compared to the way Shaihen people think, and relates it to an internalization of hierarchy at all levels. Shehaios, at least as an ideal, is egalitarian. "King" Rainur needs the approval of his Holders (sort of), and it's a culture where anyone can speak his or her mind. Of course, *some* hierarchy seems to have crept in before the story starts... the common people may be able to speak their minds, but only Holders have the right to issue a challenge. Even the challenge itself is interesting in this context, though, because the first thing it seems to lead to is discussion--often extended discussion. And with the coming of the Caiivorians, Shehaios seems to be moving more and more toward stratification. I believe there was a comment to the effect that the heir to a Holder or even the King did not necessarily need to be a family member, but that with the marriage to Cathva, Rainur pretty much *will* have to name his son his heir.

But of course that kind of thing was already going on, and even justifying it by saying that the children of people who rule tend to learn about how to rule and thus be the best choice doesn't change the fact that it's a de facto hereditary system. Even though the servants may have it better in Shehaios than in the Empire, there still seems to be a somewhat strict class system, or at least an emerging one.

Nonetheless, these are the ideals that compete in the novel, hierarchy vs. equality. As an interesting aside, it was interesting to see the emperor styling himself "Zelt the Fair, Champion of the Free, Emperor of the Whole World," but then he decides that doesn't sound quite right, so he changes it to "Zelt the Fair, Holy Emperor of the Free World." Now, in his own mind, it might be that it sounds too wordy or awkward, but we readers see clearly enough that he's nothing like "Champion of the Free," but "Free World" is--as in our own world--just words (on which Zelt himself has just been meditating), nice-sounding but essentially meaningless.

Anyway, it's interesting to me to see how Shehaios tries to negotiate this change, how it seeks to hold onto its essential character. How *can* a land of pacifists deal with violence--especially the organized violence of a disciplined army? How can Shehaios become part of the empire without becoming more hierarchical... especially as its young men go off to serve in the army for five years, internalizing Caiivorian values? We've only just begun to see this conflict play out, but I'd have to say at this point it isn't going so well for Shehaios....

I look forward to seeing what others thing. And if you made it this far, thanks for reading. And reading, and reading... :)

I just finished Cloak of Magic today (I did little else Saturday)--S.A., thank you so much for giving away copies (yeah, I know you had ulterior motives, but I'm still excited not only to get a book free, but to enjoy it). I've posted my review on my blog and here on Goodreads and now I'm looking forward to discussing it with any of you who are interested.

The Prince of Nothing series by R. Scott Baker, which starts with The Darkness That Comes Before. People often compare it to Martin's and Erikson's works.

I'm in the same boat Jim is, struggling to find the time, except that I'm over 100 pages behind him. I think I can find some time today though, and probably over the weekend, so I hope to finish and join in the discussion... but don't wait on me.

I received mine Monday--thank you!

Kernos, seeing how clearly you "get" Erikson's work, you've piqued my curiosity about Ysabel. And you should take a look at Scott Bakker's work--the writing at the beginning can be a bit difficult to get into, but it gets better and better, and it sounds like it would be right up your alley.

As an aside, I haven't gotten bored with Martin's series so much as I've lost momentum with it... he's taking so long to get the next book out that it's harder to get excited about it, especially knowing that the next book (whenever it finally comes out) isn't the last one, and who knows how long it will take for him to finish the series, or if he even will! I don't have the same worries with Erikson--he's been putting them out at a steady pace and I've found the quality to be pretty consistently high (I have the latest but haven't had time to read it yet, so I'm not including that in my judgment).

I second the Malazan Book of the Fallen series, as well as Martin's Song of Ice and Fire (though I have a lot more hope of the former ever getting finished than the latter). If you like dense, complex, dark, and gritty, you should pick up R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing series, which starts with The Darkness That Comes Before.

I can think of three good trilogies you might check out, by Robin Hobb. She writes good stories and she wraps up each story arc in three books. The first begins with Assassin's Apprentice (The Farseer Trilogy), the second begins with Ship of Magic (The Liveship Traders trilogy, which is set in the same world but with almost completely different characters), and the third which begins with Fool's Errand (The Tawny Man trilogy, which returns to the main character from the first series).

In the way of ongoing series, longer than three books, I don't feel like Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen series (which begins with The Gardens of the Moon has played itself out yet (the 8th book comes out in the States this September).

Listening to a Sci-Fi and Fantasy podcast (The Dragon Page) yesterday, they were talking about the publishing industry, and they were saying that it's pretty much impossible these days to get a stand-alone fantasy novel published, that publishers want at least three books in a series. It was either Michael Stackpole or Tracy Hickman (I *think* it was the latter) saying that he had a stand-alone that he wanted to publish and he was basically self-publishing it first as an audio book, which he was hoping would generate enough interest to show the viability of the book to get it published in print form. Whichever guy it was, we're talking about established authors--I would imagine it's even harder for authors who are just getting started. No wonder we're having a hard time finding things!

Steven Brust has a couple stand-alones. To Reign in Hell is a retelling of the story of The Fall from Satan's point of view, and it's quite good. Agyar is a vampire novel--they aren't usually my thing, but this is very well done. Brokedown Palace is technically set in and tied into Brust's Dragaera world, but its connection is so tenuous that it's in essence a complete stand-alone. He and Megan Lindholm co-wrote The Gypsy, which is a decent bit of urban fantasy.

Lori,

She writes under Robin Hobb to distinguish her epic fantasy from the urban fantasy she writes under Megan Lindholm.

And, incidentally, she and Steven Brust collaborated on a work, The Gypsy. It's an okay novel, but the really cool thing about it was that before they wrote the novel, Brust wrote a song cycle about this magical wandering gypsy an his two brothers (much of it recorded by the band Boiled in Lead). The song cycle itself grew out of another book he'd written, The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars, which I liked. There was just something cool to me about the interplay between the music and the novel.

In the other Sci-Fi /Fantasy group I'm in on Goodreads, something related came up in the past day, news (from wikipedia) about a new book (or two) in the Enderverse: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ender_in...

Even though there is a link in the article to Card's website, nothing of the sort is listed in his "Works in Progress" or "Completed, Awaiting Publication" list, so take it with a grain of salt, I suppose.

First thing that comes to mind looking at your list is Steven Brust's Agyar. It's a vampire book by a writer who isn't really known for vampire books. There's something in his style that bears a similarity to Neil Gaiman, I think.

I'm afraid I don't have any new authors to add, but as far as Octavia Butler suggestions go, my favorites were the duology Parable of the Sower & Parable of the Talents, and Wild Seed.

Jennifer mentioned Jacqueline Carey--I didn't know she wrote sci-fi, I only know her fantasy works, but they *are* very good.

On that note, there are some women doing great work over in fantasy as well: Sherwood Smith's Inda series and anything and everything by Robin Hobb are the first two that come to mind.

Though mentioned earlier, I would like to throw my support behind The Malazan Book of the Fallen series by Steven Erikson, which starts with Gardens of the Moon. It's epic fantasy largely centered--at least at first--around soldiers in the army of the Malazan Empire. Great characters, well-written stories, and all in all pretty substantive intellectually--which is to say, Erikson deals with important human concerns in his novels. The novels in the series do get progressively longer and the series isn't finished yet, though Erikson seems to be moving along at a reasonable pace.

Sean Russell's Swan's War trilogy, which starts with The One Kingdom was good. It's got your political and personal intrigue, rather like Martin, but I read this a few years before I read Martin and can't make a good comparison.

Robin Hobb has done some excellent stuff. I'd start with her Farseer Trilogy, which begins with Assassin's Apprentice.

On the massively epic side of things, you might also check out R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing series, which begins with The Darkness That Comes Before. It was a little hard to get into at first, and it shows that he was working on a PhD in Philosophy, but it's an incredibly rich world and well worth reading. Three massive tomes comprise the entire series... but there's a follow-up series on its way (though it's been "on its way" for a few years now). I should mention that it's a fairly dark, brutal world (though, for that matter, so is George R.R. Martin's).