Victorians! discussion

Discuss this portion of the story.

I read this section last night. The narrator and his friend back in England are obsessed with a deceased poet, Aspern. The narrator is in Venice, trying to meet the one living acquaintance of Aspern, a woman he apparently had an affair with. She is a recluse, living with her niece. He tries to rent a room from them, so that he can get into their good graces and hopefully eventually get posession of some love letters (which she has already denied having, when his friend wrote to her). He first meets the niece, and the next day, her aunt. They are strange women, living apart from the world.

I found the women to be very interesting. The aunt seems a bizarre character, hiding her face, and very eager for money. She obviously consents to renting him some rooms just to get money - she asks for an excessive amount, and wants it in gold. At first I thought that she didn't trust him, and the amount was a trick to see if he would agree. If he agreed, I figured she would see through him, but in the end, I guess she just wanted a lot of money! The niece is very socially awkward, since she never sees anybody. She apparently had a good education when she was young, but then her aunt took her away from the world. She is a little pathetic. The narrator's offer to fix up their garden and grow flowers seems to fill her with a longing for their beauty. You have to feel sorry for her. When she shows the narrator the rooms, she suddenly starts telling him more than she should be telling a stranger - another proof that she just doesn't know how to behave around people. In the introduction to the book of short works that I have, it says that most of James' stories have at their center an inexperienced innocent, and Miss Tita certainly fits that description! I suspect she will end up being the focus of whatever happens.

In a way, the aunt and Tita reminded me of Miss Havisham and Estella, in Dickens' Great Expectations. Except that Tita does not appear to be being groomed to hate and destroy men - she doesn't appear to be being prepared to interact with men at all.

I can see why you were reminded of Miss Havisham. I was trying to picture this green covering that Juliana Bordereau wore. I wonder if that was an unusual thing at the time?

The narrator and his conspirator Cumnor remind me of the characters in Byatt's novel Possession, who sought so far and wide any remnants of Randolph Ash.

The innocent in the story will be an interesting aspect. And also characters who are reclusive do always bring with them an eeriness of a sort. I feel they are hiding something or hiding themselves from something.

Denise wrote: "I read this section last night. The narrator and his friend back in England are obsessed with a deceased poet, Aspern."

If I read correctly, it's more than obsessed; they are, or at least the narrator is, the editor of some of Aspern's work. So they have a professional interest in his former lover, to and/or about whom a number of his poems were written.

This is an interesting approach, or at least I found it interesting. The key player in the book, it seems, will be someone who died about 35 years before the events of the story start. His memory, and work, seem to be what's really driving the story.

SarahC wrote: "The innocent in the story will be an interesting aspect. And also characters who are reclusive do always bring with them an eeriness of a sort. I feel they are hiding something or hiding themselves from something. "

Don't have the book in front of me and don't recall the names, but the aunt (great-aunt?) certainly seems to have lived a recluse for a long time. I hope (indeed, I expect, if the story is not to be a total dud!) that we will eventually find out what's going on with her and why she has lived so secretively for so long (and why she was totally unwilling to even acknowledge the communications about Aspern). And I suspect that the narrator and the niece will get to know a lot more of each other.

The neat thing would be if they re-enact the love affair between Aspern and the great aunt, with the narrator in a way standing in for Aspern and, of course, the niece standing in for her great aunt. I would make a neat parallel, wouldn't it?

I'm allowed to speculate, I assume, since I haven't read past Chapter 3, and have never read or even heard of the story before, so I can't be spoiling when I have no idea what really happens. Fair enough? And of course, I may be (probably am) totally off base. But I think it would be neat if the story turned out that way.

On to read more to see whether I do indeed have literary second sight, as the Scottish say!

I have to say that up to now the "main character", the narrator, is terrible: for his obsession with this Aspern poet he feels sheltered doing whatever he thinks will bring him these papers. Even pretending to be someone else, and to be in love with the niece ..
I also find interestig the role that "the Garden" seems to play up to here; and I have to admit that a garden in Venice can be the closest thing to paradise ever ....

Juliana Bordereau is the aunt, correct? And Nina the niece? The narrator as yet unnamed?

There may be a need to check what editions we are each reading. The introductory material for my ebook copy suggests the story was published and is available in at least three versions. If I recall correctly, in the last version, Miss Tita becomes Miss Tina.

Henry James wrote many of his stories for publication in periodicals. Sometimes they were modified when later collected into books. In my faulty recollection of some biographical information, the business of revising and of different versions sometimes seemed excessively messy for his works.

For at least his later works, he "wrote" by dictating, which were transcribed by his secretary. I don't know for The Aspern Papers.

Thanks for adding that, Lily. That will at least let us know we can do a little mental translating Tita=Tina, etc. And it seems there will be a limited set of characters in the story, so we should be able to have an easy conversation, do you all think?

SarahC wrote: "...at least...we can do a little mental translating Tita=Tina, etc. And it seems there will be a limited set of characters in the story, so we should be able to have an easy conversation, do you all think?"

I agree, I don't think the name change need dampen our conversation so long as we are aware that may be what is going on. Maybe some of us will even be able to post a bit on other editorial changes which may exist if/as we recognize them.

The Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Aspe...) -- which DOES have spoilers -- has this non-spoiler information about its publication history. Sharing this is a lot easier than transcribing from my ebook introductory notes!

"The Aspern Papers was first published in three parts in March-May 1888 editions of The Atlantic Monthly, and published in book form in London and New York later in the same year. It was subsequently revised, with the addition of a Preface and changes including 'Miss Tita' being renamed to 'Miss Tina', for the 1908 New York Edition."

I found the NN (nameless narrator) rather heartless already in his pursuit for the papers. In Chapter 1 we already see that he has the expectation of woo'ing the niece in order to get the papers, but doesnt think a second time about the fact that he is woo'ing her under a false name. She is so innocent, I can only imagine what such a deception would do to her, as she seems rather fragile.

When Tita said "that was so many years ago that we are nothing" I felt that it was important. I feel that somehow (I have never read this or anything about, so I'm speculating) she is going to be the sort of inner monologue of the story. She is wispy, like the world's memory of Aspern. I just wonder if that line will turn prophetic by the end.

I also find it interesting that NN has a hard time talking about Julia as separate from Aspern. She has no identity of her own to him. She is "Aspern's Juliana", the "subject of his most delightful lyrics", she is a reincarnation of Aspern to the Narrator.

One of the things that I was struck by in this section was the idea of the author as a celebrity.

Even as a child I always knew I didnt want to be a moviestar becuase I didnt want a bunch of people following me with cameras. If you can't handle the incoming fame, you don't be a celebrity. It seems simple.

But I feel with facebook, twitter, Goodreads, our expectations from modern authors is becoming greater. Many expect them to be more communicative with their fans, and quite a few authors accumulate a cult following that I feel they wouldnt have had in the 70s necessarily. People want their authors to be accessible. We look up to authors for the ability to create something that we genuinely enjoyed, but being authors, rather than rockstars or celebrities, we expect them to be more grounded and make honest-to-goodness time for the fans. I see this particularly with fantasy and scifi authors who spend a lot of their time going to conventions etc. JK Rowling even considered writing her second series under a pen name so that it would get a fair shake.

So here is my question: Do we hold authors in an unfair limelight?

Becky wrote: "I found the NN (nameless narrator) rather heartless already in his pursuit for the papers. In Chapter 1 we already see that he has the expectation of woo'ing the niece in order to get the papers, b..."

An interesting comment to bring forward, Becky, about the character of Juliana as a person -- as opposed to an association with Aspern himself.

How hard would it be for us under those circumstances to view Juliana differently than the narrator does? If we were strongly seeking a connection, for whatever reason, would we be able to separate that from who Juliana is as herself?

Becky, from your message 12, that is an interesting thing to bring up in Victorians group. Here we predominately discuss authors who have only their legacy left to connect with. So maybe it is the type of reader who will drive the feeling of contemporary authors public presence in society? In which case does the marketing of the publisher also drive this trend? The trend of needing to connect with them in person?

I also still tend to think of authors as the more private people in the world of the arts. They send their work out into the world, but not necessarily themselves. I wonder how many do feel differently about that.

This issue also reminds me of the recent press about the privacy issues of the royal family of England. The expectation by some that their privacy is never to be expected or protected. I heard a public comment locally here in the U.S. that the blame for the existence of the photos of the Duchess was on her. I disagree. She was at a private residence and her privacy was invaded and then she was exploited. Sometimes our expectations of humans, famous or otherwise, is too much.

I probably read as many modern works as I read Victorian, and so the inability to connect with my favorite Victorian authors made an interesting dichotomy for me. There is a limited amount of information about each of them, depending on what they left behind.

We could turn the discussion towards specific Victorian authors as well though. Wasn't it Charlotte Bronte that was so shy she hid behind the curtains at Gaskell's house? How "out" were Victorian authors? I know many of them retreated to country estates to write because they felt so bothered in London by keeping society.

In Henry James case they have volumized his letters, do you think that he was ever expecting all his personal correspondence to become such a large part of the scholarly work that focus' on him. I read somewhere that James used to ask that his letters be burned so no one could get their hands on them, and yet there are thousands in extent. I can only imagine his frusteration at his lack of privacy, but a hundred years later, do you think the public has a right to the legacy of these letters? Since James is arguably an important part of a literary movement that now, belongs to the reading world, do we have a right to his personal correspondence as well as a mean for fuller understanding of the man and his writings?

I have mixed feelings on that, as a historian, so I'm interested to see what others say.

I am loving this discussion -- my brain can't keep up with it! haha I hope you are writing an article or a blog on this, Becky -- you should!

I had read this also about James -- where did I read about his possible involvement with the woman -- and their story may be some basis for this story that we are reading? I will find it. That after her death, James destroyed the letters. He must have had a true sense of privacy -- to protect himself? or others? I don't know -- I am a Henry James light-weight!

For me this issue also includes one of privacy of the person still living vs. the examination of the person's life in subsequent years. Is the scholar's look at the private life of the subject after death more noble (although I know sometimes it is done for money)? If you remove the ability to emotionally damage the subject still living, is that better or different?

I hope there are comments on this, too, Becky.

For me this issue also includes one of privacy of the person still living vs. the examination of the person's life in subsequent years. Is the scholar's look at the private life of the subject after death more noble (although I know sometimes it is done for money)?

I would love to talk about this as we move into chapter 4 especially. (view spoiler)[ the NN talks about how Julia was painted by Aspern's poems with a certain amount of ignominy. She was free, kind of a partier, a wild spirit. When authors use real people as the basis for their narrative are they violating another person's privacy? It makes for an interesting layer to this question that James seem to be bring up in regards to privacy! (hide spoiler)]

Becky wrote: "One of the things that I was struck by in this section was the idea of the author as a celebrity.

Even as a child I always knew I didnt want to be a moviestar becuase I didnt want a bunch of peopl..."

I think, actually, biography was better established as a genre and more widely read during the (late) 19th century than it is now, biographies of literary figures by people like Thomas Carlyle, James Parton or Leslie Stephen (Virginia Woolf's father) were almost as popular as 'celebrity memoirs' are now. I've tried looking up an article on Victorian biographers that would support this view, but I can't find anything at the moment, so I'll look tomorrow in the library (I remember reading something about Victorian biographies when I was reading Virginia Woolf's Orlando, I just have to find it again). But, more generally, I think conflicts between private / public life (lives?) are a recurrent theme in HJ's books. He himself was a very reserved person and tried very hard to protect himself from the prying eyes of future biographers (I am 95% sure I remember reading in David Lodge's Author Author that he burnt almost all of his personal papers before he died because he didn't want them to be found).

Everyman wrote: "The neat thing would be if they re-enact the love affair between Aspern and the great aunt, with the narrator in a way standing in for Aspern and, of course, the niece standing in for her great aunt. I would make a neat parallel, wouldn't it?

I'm allowed to speculate, I assume, since I haven't read past Chapter 3, and have never read or even heard of the story before, so I can't be spoiling when I have no idea what really happens. Fair enough? And of course, I may be (probably am) totally off base. But I think it would be neat if the story turned out that way.

On to read more to see whether I do indeed have literary second sight, as the Scottish say!"

I think that part of reading any story is speculating about what is going to happen! Don't worry, now that I have read the next section, I am full of speculations myself!

It would be interesting to see if there will be an affair of sorts between the narrator and Tita, although I'm not sure it would be much of a parallel with Juliana and Aspern. The narrator is no poet (although, as you pointed out, he has published about Aspern), and I don't think that Juliana would have been as sheltered and naive as Tita. On the other hand, perhaps her own experience is her reason for having kept Tita as isolated as she has.

SarahC wrote: "Juliana Bordereau is the aunt, correct? And Nina the niece? The narrator as yet unnamed?"

That's it!

LauraT wrote: "I have to say that up to now the "main character", the narrator, is terrible: for his obsession with this Aspern poet he feels sheltered doing whatever he thinks will bring him these papers. Even p..."

He does seem to have an impersonal view of them, only as a means to an end - to get his hands on the papers, and is willing to do whatever he can to manipulate them.

Sidebar conversation: Andreea wrote: "(I remember reading something about Victorian biographies when I was reading Virginia Woolf's Orlando, I just have to find it again)...."

As I recall, Orlando was written at least somewhat as a take-up on her father's profession as a biographer. Such a commentary on biography as only her genius could give us -- at least as far as my knowledge of the subject takes me.

Lily wrote: "There may be a need to check what editions we are each reading. The introductory material for my ebook copy suggests the story was published and is available in at least three versions. If I reca..."

Well, I have one of the Tita versions! There are no indications that I can find in my book to indicate a specific edition. The book itself is titled Great Short Works of Henry James, with an introduction by Dean Flower, published by Harper & Row, from a collection apparently titled Perennial Classics. Oh, I just found this on the copyright page (copyrighted 1966, although I believe I bought it for college in the late 70s): "The Perennial Classic GREAT SHORT WORKS OF HENRY JAMES gives the text of the original editions."

Great Short Works of Henry James
The don't have a picture of my edition.

Becky wrote: "I found the NN (nameless narrator) rather heartless already in his pursuit for the papers. In Chapter 1 we already see that he has the expectation of woo'ing the niece in order to get the papers, but doesnt think a second time about the fact that he is woo'ing her under a false name. She is so innocent, I can only imagine what such a deception would do to her, as she seems rather fragile.

When Tita said "that was so many years ago that we are nothing" I felt that it was important. I feel that somehow (I have never read this or anything about, so I'm speculating) she is going to be the sort of inner monologue of the story. She is wispy, like the world's memory of Aspern. I just wonder if that line will turn prophetic by the end.

I also find it interesting that NN has a hard time talking about Julia as separate from Aspern. She has no identity of her own to him. She is "Aspern's Juliana", the "subject of his most delightful lyrics", she is a reincarnation of Aspern to the Narrator."

I agree that Tita seems so vulnerable and naive, that I'm worried about what will happen to her as a result of the narrator's manipulation. She already seems to be unaturally confiding, and yet aloof at the same time - an interesting combination.

It is also interesting that they seem to have lost their nationality. James writes so often of Americans in Europe, but I think that often they are very definitely Americans in an alien culture. In this case, although the women are American, they seem to have lost that fact; they are so removed from the world that perhaps nationality and location are meaningless for them.

From what we have seen so far of Juliana, she doesn't seem to have much of an identity, except that she wants money! The narrator's reaction to her is definitely that he senses the presence of Aspern because of her connection with him, even though she has said nothing about Aspern and is presumably unaware that he even knows about that connection.

SarahC wrote: "How hard would it be for us under those circumstances to view Juliana differently than the narrator does? If we were strongly seeking a connection, for whatever reason, would we be able to separate that from who Juliana is as herself?"

Personally, I think that the connection would make me want to know who Juliana is as a person, to get to know her, to understand what Aspern saw in her. Of course, that is still seeing her through the prism of her relationship with Aspern, but I think it is still more on a personal level than an objectification. If that makes any sense.

Part of what is fascinating me about TAP is the contrast with TOW by Gissing that we just finished! How delightful that we have read or are reading them back-to-back.

I am loving the sense of humor in TAP. If it weren't so low key, so biting, so satiric, sometimes so sad, I'd be sitting here laughing out loud as I read. How Henry James managed to embody his native America and his adopted England -- one rather broad, wide open, innocent, even, dare I say about James, crude or at least presumptuous, the other worldly, imbued with the crust of centuries, the satire of Swift and Punch, sophisticated, polite. (Yes, I realize "imbued with crust" is a very mixed figure of speech. :-) Somehow, it still was the closest I could get right now to what I wanted to convey.)

LauraT wrote: "I have to say that up to now the "main character", the narrator, is terrible: for his obsession with this Aspern poet he feels sheltered doing whatever he thinks will bring him these papers. "

Interesting! I didn't find him at all terrible, frankly, though I can see your point. But I found him passionate about wanting all the truth about his hero. He and his partner have been rebuffed in the past, so if he comes as himself he will have no chance of success. But if he comes as a stranger, I think he hopes that he might be able to win the good favor of the women and wind up getting information that will add knowledge to the work of a major literary figure.

Whether or not he succeeds we will see in due course. But I missed what you saw, the terribleness of his innocent deception.

A bit off topic:

Becky wrote: " I read somewhere that James used to ask that his letters be burned so no one could get their hands on them, and yet there are thousands in extent. I can only imagine his frusteration at his lack of privacy, but a hundred years later, do you think the public has a right to the legacy of these letters?"

I am reminded that Virgil asked on his deathbed that the Aeneid be destroyed because he hadn't finished it. Other authors have also asked that their work be burnt when it hasn't been.

Is it unfair of me to be grateful that the Aeneid wasn't burnt? Or that other works have survived their authors' instructions? Does it hurt the authors to have this material available to us even if they didn't want it to be?

Ah well. Back to the book.

Denise wrote: "The narrator is no poet (although, as you pointed out, he has published about Aspern), and I don't think that Juliana would have been as sheltered and naive as Tita. "

On the NN, I agree.

But realizing that Juliana was apparently quite young when she knew Aspern, and that she was raised early in the 19th century, if I estimate correctly about 1830, she may very have had a very sheltered life up until she met Aspern. I wonder whether we will find out more about her early years with him, and even her upbringing, as the book proceeds?

Everyman wrote: "...But I missed what you saw, the terribleness of his innocent deception. ..."

I might well not say "terrible", neither am I certain I'd go so far as declare "innocent", but James does have a knack for asking his reader to explore with him the dimensions of human propensities to deceive for their own ends. Now, let's see, we have narrator, Juliana,....

Denise wrote: "It is also interesting that they seem to have lost their nationality. James writes so often of Americans in Europe, but I think that often they are very definitely Americans in an alien culture. In this case, although the women are American, they seem to have lost that fact; they are so removed from the world that perhaps nationality and location are meaningless for them."

I have read very little James, but he does seem from that and from what I hear in my Teaching Company lectures, to have focused considerably on contrasting nationalities. Here we already have English, American, and Italian. If what I have heard about James is accurate, we should not overlook these nationalities in reading the story; he certainly made a point of the women being American, so presumably it was important enough to him to emphasize.

Maybe it was to accentuate their isolation that he pointed out their nationality? THey could have secluded themselves in America, but they've secluded themselves in this city: a labrynth of rivers, old buildings, and mystery. They're as far as they could convetionally go and, as Tita say, "they are nothing now." There is no substance to their lives but to haunt each room in their manor... that is, until our NN arrives.

Is it unfair of me to be grateful that the Aeneid wasn't burnt? Or that other works have survived their authors' instructions? Does it hurt the authors to have this material available to us even if they didn't want it to be?

I personally feel that there is a difference between personal correspondence and an unfinished work. A lot of James' letters have been used to discuss the possibility of his pansexuality or homosexuality, and then in that context, a new translation of his work. Whether he was or wasn't doesnt matter, do we have a right to know an authors deepest secrets after they've passed?

Frankly, I'm also very happy that none of these things were destroyed. Think of all the literature we would be missing, all the backstory, all the influences on our authors that have become influences on us. Perhaps its even important to know their secrets because it makes us more tolerant and accepting, because we can see their pain through their work?

I certainly dont have the answer, but I find it a fascinating question. I think by the end of this book we will definitively know what side James stands on.

Becky wrote: "I found the NN (nameless narrator) rather heartless already in his pursuit for the papers..."

Horrible, don't you think???

LauraT wrote: "Becky wrote: "I found the NN (nameless narrator) rather heartless already in his pursuit for the papers..."

Horrible, don't you think???"

Against what standards or mores, Laura?

Everyman wrote: "
Whether or not he succeeds we will see in due course. But I missed what you saw, the terribleness of his innocent deception."

I'm not so sure about innocence. I believe that even before he attempted to meet them, he had ideas about trying to romance the niece to further his cause. Since he had not even met her yet, I can't believe he is seriously interested in her, and that does not seem so innocent to me.

LauraT wrote: "Becky wrote: "I found the NN (nameless narrator) rather heartless already in his pursuit for the papers..."

Horrible, don't you think???"

Against what standards or mores, Laura?


I think that its generally considered bad taste to try and acquire an object by means of deceit, especially in this case, where in no uncertain terms the NN has been made aware that he is not welcome to the object.

I find his object in trying to woo the niece to his cause malicious. Now, its a modern trope "trick girl into falling for you, but fall for her yourself," and we dont know if that will happen here, but intentionally playing on someones emotions to get what you want- thats what conmen do.

Perhaps he will redeem himself later in the book?

Becky wrote: "Maybe it was to accentuate their isolation that he pointed out their nationality? THey could have secluded themselves in America, but they've secluded themselves in this city: a labrynth of rivers,..."

I agree that he seems to be trying to emphasize that even though they are American, they have virtually lost their nationality. In addition to the quote about their being nothing, early in the story he says that they were considered "scarcely respectable Americans (they were believed to have lost in their long exile all national quality...".

On the question of destroying personal correspondence, I find it interesting that James wrote this story in which the narrator is obsessed with obtaining private letters from Aspern that Juliana obviously does not want to share, in the light of the fact that James himself wanted his own destroyed. Do you think that he wants us to see the narrator in a negative light because of this?

Something that comes to my mind is the fact that, although much of Jane Austen's personal correspondence has been published, her sister Cassandra apparently destroyed Jane's letters to her after her death. Since the sisters were so close, surely those would have been the most interesting and revealing!

Denise wrote: "On the question of destroying personal correspondence, I find it interesting that James wrote this story in which the narrator is obsessed with obtaining private letters from Aspern that Juliana ob..."

Really nice point! James as novelist vs. James as person in conflict over value of personal letters to editors and scholars.

I'm a bit behind in these discussions due to some crazy family stuff, but will catch up quickly as I have been reading. First I need to make the disclosure that I've always disliked James and have had an exceptionally difficult time reading him. I've always wanted to read Turn of the Screw (in fact found I had 3 copies of the story), but had never heard of TAP.

What a wonderful surprise to find that not only did I almost immediately get swept away into the story, but I was actually enjoying James for the first time ever! It certainly helped that I just returned from several European countries/cities - one of which was Venice. How easily I could see the streets, etc.

For me the NN is obsessive in his search for the papers. It's gone beyond wanting them for a purely professional reason - he'll now do almost anything to get to them (travel/stay in Venice, pay an outlandish sum of money for rooms that contain nothing but decay, try to connect with the niece to name a few). It feels threatening to me to the lifestyle of the women on a level somewhat deeper than appears on the surface.

I'm intrigued by the covering of the Aunt's face, and also wonder what created the desire, or maybe it's need (?), to become so isolated. We don't know how they came to be in Venice or why they stayed there. I think James uses their loss of nationality to emphasize the disconnectedness of the women; but I also believe that living in a culture has an impact on you as an individual. Maybe the disconnectedness from being American is because they've lived in Venice for so long and have simply absorbed the culture/norms of the area.

Love the discussion on privacy, and like Becky, see it as a double-edged sword. They should have their privacy, yet we need or want the information to better understand the writing. Which is one that is "true" is beyond my capabilities as they do seem very mutual exclusive.

Funny, I didn't connect the story with any other story (i.e. Great Expectations or Possession). Maybe because I was so surprised to be enjoying what I was reading.

Re the garden. I can understand how a garden in a city of water and walls would be a wonderful thing; yet James depicts that even as something that is somewhat decrepit. Ah, romantic Venice - falling apart and yet somehow still beautiful it the process. I found the garden and flowers to be almost a foil to what the NN was doing. Here is something beautiful and pure, yet it is being used for motives that have the possibility of being very detrimental to the ladies.

Glad to have you back!

I wonder if the Aunt's need for isolation, and to cover her face, was somehow rooted in her own perceptions of her failing beauty. We already see that NN is annoyed that this muse of Aspern was, in his opinion, overly concerned with money, however, maybe we should see her as only concerned with worldly objects. Maybe she is, in actuality, the antithesis to Aspern's lyrics?

I wondered about the connection between the covered face and failing beauty too, but I also thought of the possibility of some tragic event that mars her face which would create the motivation for creating the isolation too.

Becky wrote: " LauraT wrote: "Becky wrote: "I found the NN (nameless narrator) rather heartless already in his pursuit for the papers..."

Horrible, don't you think???"

Against what standards or mores, Laura?
..."

As you was saying I think that the worst thing anyone can do is to exploit weaknesses in others to obtain something for oneself: be it money, power, fame, etc.
Only what I gain because I earn it is worth having - and keeping - in my opinion!
Will he redeem himself later on? I strongly doubt!

LauraT wrote: ""I found the NN (nameless narrator) rather heartless already in his pursuit for the papers..."

Horrible, don't you think???"

Becky: Against what standards or mores, Laura?

Laurel: As you was saying I think that the worst thing anyone can do is to exploit weaknesses in others to obtain something for oneself: be it money, power, fame, etc."

Are we sure we know in this case who is exploiting weakness in whom?

Everyman wrote: "Are we sure we know in this case who is exploiting weakness in whom?"

Interesting! I think that the narrator thinks that he is exploiting the women, but I think that Julian may actually be exploiting the narrator. Unfortunately, I think she may also be exploiting Tita.

Denise wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Are we sure we know in this case who is exploiting weakness in whom?"

Interesting! I think that the narrator thinks that he is exploiting the women, but I think that Julian may actually be exploiting the narrator. Unfortunately, I think she may also be exploiting Tita"

Or at least trying to exploit. I have a feeling no one wll reach hit/her goal - as usual with James!

This is very interesting already! Henry James is a new author for me, and I am liking his writing style and stories a lot. I keep thinking about this story when I'm not reading, and have to come back to it.
The possibilities are endless concerning what lengths the narrator may go to to get those papers! We shall see...