The Year of Reading Proust discussion

This thread is for the discussion that will take place through Sunday, 24 Feb. of Swann's Way, finish.

I'm just going to post this here before I forget it, and we can talk about it next week.

There is a line about Swann eating spice cake for health reasons as he is "suffering from ethnic eczema and the Prophets' constipation." ( LD 418) What does this mean?

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1....

Spice was used to treat constipation, as well.

Jonathan wrote: "Well, I guess types of eczema and constipation were linked to Jewishness at the time."

LMAO!

It used to be an old village tale that masturbation (and probably anything that wasn't missionary position between heterosexual consenting or otherwise adults) caused warts.

Not sure if that might have played into the eczema = corruption theme.

Odette's cruises with the Verdurins, which take almost a year, do not support the idea discussed in earlier posts that her putting on weight was due to her being pregnant.

The closing comment in Un amour de Swann is disconcerting.

Dire que j'ai gâché des anées de ma vie, que j'ai voulu mourir, que j'ai eu mon plus grand amour, pour une femme que ni me plaisait pas, qui n'était pas mon genre.

However we guess that the Mme Swann mentioned in the Combray section is this Odette that he realizes he does not like.

Kalliope wrote: "However we guess that the Mme Swann mentioned in the Combray section is this Odette that he realizes he does not like."

I actually would not have known this until her identity was revealed in the final section, except that I had seen people on this thread comment on Odette being the wife mentioned in the first section. So although it did not come as a surprise to me, I imaging it was intended to be one. (The same thing goes for the lady in pink, whose identity this book did not actually reveal.)

Kalliope wrote: "The closing comment in Un amour de Swann is disconcerting.

Dire que j'ai gâché des anées de ma vie, que j'ai voulu mourir, que j'ai eu mon plus grand amour, pour une femme que ni me plaisait pas, ..."

It's terribly poignant. Thank you for the French, Kalliope, it resonates in a way the English doesn't.

I tried this once before...but I don't see it on any of the threads: Swann's gingerbread & the comments thereof: I think it was a snarky reference to Swann's being a Jew. Proust kept up with his Jewish relatives all his life, but I don't know if he knew this Talmudic law: If your mother is a Jew, then you are a Jew. Proust was baptized a Catholic, but showed no interest in any religion once he was an adult...and his ambivalent feelings about his Jewish origins are sort of parallel to his same feelings about his sexuality. In fact, I think Bloch is kind of an alter ego...

That being said,on to the cruise, and Mme. Cottard's statements that seem to end Swann's love/obsession. Some critics say that it is merely the passage of time (isnt she gone nearly a year?), but think of this: during their conversation, Mme. Cottard reiterates Odette's admiration and respect for Swann. And that does it. Once he knows she seems to love him...he loses interest. I think this is a major ingredient in Proust's attitude to love.

I have been enjoying my reading so much! And I am coming here to scan comments less and less frequently.

I love Un Amour de Swann. Yes, those last lines are so poignant. After all the lacerating ups and downs of love and jealousy and suspicion -- we are left with that extraordinary dismissal. Wow!

And, yes, it does become doubly poignant when one reads later on that he married Odette. I am sorry for those who found their reading spoiled by folks mentioning that. We all need to be very careful. There are many such surprises in the course of the novel, due in part to Proust's understanding of personality.

I love Un Amour de Swann because it is the whole novel in miniature, with all the love and suspicion and jealousy and social commentary and art and memory and forgetting. The music episodes (especially the one at Mme de Saint-Euverte's) suggest the final discovery in the last sections of the novel.

I have been pondering music in Proust. Music has such a direct impact on us. There seems to be no mediation between the art and our emotional perception. I know of no other novel which has such evocative renderings of the experience of music.

I am going back to my reading.

Cassian wrote: "I have been enjoying my reading so much! And I am coming here to scan comments less and less frequently.

I love Un Amour de Swann. Yes, those last lines are so poignant. After all the lacerating ..."

Cassian, there is a thread on Music that you may want to check. Although there have been some posts on the Music aspect in previous weekly posts.

But yes, this week's readings has some magnificent passages on music. I have enjoyed the fact that in the final appearance of the Sonata in this volume, it is again in its original composition for violin and piano rather than the reduced piano version that he hears repeatedly at the Verdurins.

As auxiliary reading, because I finished Swann in Love quite early, I've been reading Ruskin. I happen to have inherited one of those antique multi-volume sets published long enough ago that it has no publishing data other than the name of the publishing house and of course is bound in the Victorian style with gold leaf lettering. Anyway, I was quite entranced with The Bible of Amiens which I read while waiting for my book order of Proust on Reading Ruskin to arrive. Now I'm reading Proust's preface and notes etc. to The Bible of... and finding it completely absorbing. Proust refers to several of Ruskin's books along the way so I feel lucky I already have them here.
Proust gets into Ruskin's aesthetic views on art and shows how and where he differs with him. He has a very clear, wonderful way of critiquing, I think. So I've been spending the sunny mornings sitting outdoors with my coffee, notebook and pen and Ruskin and Proust... and the birds! So happy for this Year of Reading Proust! Thanks everyone!

MMR. wrote: "As auxiliary reading, because I finished Swann in Love quite early, I've been reading Ruskin. I happen to have inherited one of those antique multi-volume sets published long enough ago that it ha..."

I love the image of reading with the Sun and the birds... very Proustian.

Yes, Ruskin, was read as Preliminary Reading by several of us.

Au contraire Mhoira, Francoise is the Narrator's family's servant (and formerly Tante Leonie's servant); Odette is not exactly a prostitute; she's a courtesan. That means sex with fewer, but richer, partners. And you're right about the religion; except, of course, for religious architecture. "Jewishness" is seen as a "race" not a religion (exactly the definition the Nazis applied to it, unfortunately); this is why Swann is regarded as a Jew, despite being a baptized Catholic, and the son of same. It's as if--in 1950s America--he had had a black grandparent.

Jason wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "However we guess that the Mme Swann mentioned in the Combray section is this Odette that he realizes he does not like."

I actually would not have known this until her identity was..."

I have reached this section, and yes, finally it is revealed that Odette is Mme Swann. So far it was intuited/gathered from loose info circulating..

What a way to reveal it.. ! together with the memories of someone who remembers he has slept with her on Mac-Mahon's resignation (January 30th, 1879)...

Now, is the Narrator going to become with Gilberte another Swann?

The last section, called "Place-Names" in the Moncrieff version, is just a huge prose poem. Really very startling to read after that last sentence of "Swann in Love", like suddenly finding yourself in a surreal dreamscape. I'm really enjoying reading it out loud in French. Spoken out loud, there's a strange clarity to the hypnotic passages.

J.A. wrote: "The last section, called "Place-Names" in the Moncrieff version, is just a huge prose poem. Really very startling to read after that last sentence of "Swann in Love", like suddenly finding yourself..."

Yes, I agree. It is a wonderful section, and the French is just so beautiful.

And I know just what he means about place names!

Kalliope wrote: "Jason wrote: Now, is the Narrator going to become with Gilberte another Swann?

I kept wondering this as I read the final pages. She is so much like her mother, isn't she? We shall see how this plays out...

Elizabeth wrote: "That being said,on to the cruise, and Mme. Cottard's statements that seem to end Swann's love/obsession. Some critics say that it is merely the passage of time (isnt she gone nearly a year?), but think of this: during their conversation, Mme. Cottard reiterates Odette's admiration and respect for Swann. And that does it. Once he knows she seems to love him...he loses interest. I think this is a major ingredient in Proust's attitude to love."

I disagree. I think that Swann's obsessive love began to diminish from the moment when he heard Vinteuil's sonata at the ball.

To me, the idea is that these pivot points in his emotion can't occur without some sort of help, some sort of cue. He fell in love when he heard the sonata and the sonata spoke to him of love.

But he fell out of love when he heard the sonata and it spoke to him of sorrow. We have the impression that he hadn't heard it for some time - maybe since he was cast away from the Verdurins - so he's had time to forget it. When he hears it again, he hears it differently, and once again, the music seals his emotions, defines them.

To me, the sonata was the point of closure. The moment when the fever broke. But the cause of the decline was that letter he got, which contained so much information about Odette's past indiscretions. The letter killed his last illusions, and made it possible for his feelings to truly change.

The last words of Swann in Love were, to my mind, really vicious. He'd come full circle. Back to where he'd started. And everything else in between was just gone.

Madame X wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "That being said,on to the cruise, and Mme. Cottard's statements that seem to end Swann's love/obsession. Some critics say that it is merely the passage of time (isnt she gone near..."

What is very interesting about this last time he hears the Sonata, which in itself is another very beautiful passage, is that this time the music is played in full score, that is with the piano and the violin. While at the Verdurin’s he always heard the mutilated version. The pianist played the piano reduced version and he also omitted a considerable section.

I wonder whether to go back to the full exhibition of the piece opened up his eyes, as you say.

Madame X wrote: "The last words of Swann in Love were, to my mind, really vicious. He'd come full circle. Back to where he'd started. And everything else in between was just gone."

... And so I sit here and ask myself why? Why did he marry her, then? So much strange imagery flashes through my head, so many possibilities, ideas, suggestions, terrible thoughts! And all of that was elicited by not a single word of Proust. It was all left in what was not put to paper (yet).

Martin wrote: "And so I sit here and ask myself why? Why did he marry her, then? So much strange imagery flashes through my head...and all of that was elicited by not a single word of Proust."

But is it really so hard to imagine, though? Here's what I love about this situation, and about Proust: this shit happens all the time. No wonder Proust's characters seem so real to us—they are! I love that Swann marries Odette even after saying to himself, "this woman is NOT my type." Mostly, I think people get married out of convenience. Odette enters Swann's life at the right time, ensnares him (whether she means to or not), and their codependency slash complacency leads them to the altar. Is what I imagine.

Jonathan wrote: "So are we assuming that Charlus wrote the anonymous letter since we know that at the time of the narrator's youth, Odette is living with the guy! I love how the narrator gave us bits of these chara..."

Jonathan, I agree with everything you say. I like the "anticipation of the half-known". But I do not think we can, at this point, know who wrote the anonymous letter.

I would love it if Odette wrote the letter!

Jason wrote: "I would love it if Odette wrote the letter!"

Yes ! that would be great...!!!...LOL..

Whether or not Swann was truly in love with Odette by any definition of love is a mute point to me. He was obsessed with her and his entire life was about her, even it was rather unhealthy at times.

What really struck me was how Swann came to the realization that he must move on from Odette. He then thought of going back to Combray and his thoughts turned to Mme Camberemer. My enquiring mind wants to know what future if any is in store in regards to her. And then, as was pointed out, we suddenly find that Swann is married to Odette and that Gilberte is their daughter - even though we sort of already knew they were going to get married. But what we don't know is what happened between the time that Swann decided to leave Paris for Combray (if he followed through) and how Swann and Odette came to be married. I am hoping that this is revealed to us in future novels (but please don't tell me if it is!! (same for Mme. Cambremer))

Cambremer is already married. What are we waiting to know about her?

Thoughts crossed my mind that the Gilberte/narrator relationship at the end of Swann's Way mirrored the Odette/Swann relationship to some degree. Gilberte shows some affection to him but then as he is obsessive about her friendship she then has a colder side toward him. I haven't seen much discussion in regards to this so I don't know if I am making a very obvious observation or a lame one!

Jeremy wrote: "Thoughts crossed my mind that the Gilberte/narrator relationship at the end of Swann's Way mirrored the Odette/Swann relationship to some degree. Gilberte shows some affection to him but then as h..."

Yes, I also wondered about it.. (comment 32 above).. which may explain why the Narrator has shown such an interest in analyzing Swann's obsession.

Jeremy wrote: "Thoughts crossed my mind that the Gilberte/narrator relationship at the end of Swann's Way mirrored the Odette/Swann relationship to some degree. Gilberte shows some affection to him but then as h..."

I thought the exact same thing. I said in my review that I was wondering whether the Odette–Swann relationship was dissected as a sort of flashforward analogy of Gilberte's relationship with the narrator. But if I'm wrong, then we're both wrong. Ha!

Jeremy - I thought the same about Gilberte/narrator and I found it quite disturbing. The phrasing is so similar - he had to see Gilberte every day, the letters came from her, etc.

Swann's Way layers three obsessive loves one on top of the other: the narrator for his mother, Swann for Odette, and now the narrator for Odette's daughter, Gilberte. And the narrator advances his obsession with Gilberte, in part, by lurking about where he can see Odette.

After reading about Swann, I was disturbed to see the same feelings repeated in the point of view of a young adult - I can't tell how old the narrator is, but he's clearly inexperienced. It gave me the creeps, to be honest.

Jason wrote: "Cambremer is already married. What are we waiting to know about her?"

What does that matter? hehe. I would have to go back and read that passage but Swann had some thoughts about her that gave me the impression he wanted to pursue her. But then, of course, we flash forward to Swann being married to Odette and also as you point out she is married and we will assume that she is no Madame Bovary.

Jeremy wrote: "Jason wrote: "What does that matter? hehe. I would have to go back and read that passage but Swann had some thoughts about h..."

Ditto. I wondered if he was going to Combray to pursue Cambremer.

Jeremy wrote: "Jason wrote: "Cambremer is already married. What are we waiting to know about her?"

What does that matter? hehe. I would have to go back and read that passage but Swann had some thoughts about h..."

I think it was not Swann but another character who paid particular attention to the young Mme Cambremer. I think it t was a General something -- I do not have the book with me now...

Re: message 43 & 44

I wonder if this speaks mostly to Proust's way of expounding on details whether physical or psychological but in the end we find the connection of why he was going on about this or that. Like the entire section of Swann in Love was a mere prelude of the Narrator's life in the way that any few pages are a prelude for some action on the part of the narrator or his family.

I know that writing in general tends to naturally have preludes in that one thing leads to another but in the case of Proust he is on one subject then diverges out and circles around and then I am like, Oh!, I never left this spot in the first place!

Kalliope - yes, that's right. I thought either Swann planned to play middleman or that the General had directed his attention & he planned to swoop if the General hadn't.

Madame X wrote: "It gave me the creeps, to be honest."

Really? I thought it was an incredibly astute observation of adolescence. I remember loving this classmate of mine when I was in the 6th grade, at which point I would have been 11 years old. I loved everything about her and over-analyzed anything she would ever say to me, which usually wasn't much. Reading part three, it was like I was 11 years old again. But then again, I give myself the creeps so in some ways, I totally see your point.

Madame X wrote: "Jeremy wrote: "Jason wrote: "What does that matter? hehe. I would have to go back and read that passage but Swann had some thoughts about h..."

Ditto. I wondered if he was going to Combray to pu..."

My impression is that it was his friendhship with the princesse that drew him to Combray.

But we know from the early sections that the Princesse doesn't go there very often. So many country houses to visit, so little time...

Kalliope wrote: "I think it was not Swann but another character who paid particular attention to the young Mme Cambremer. I think it t was a General something -- I do not have the book with me now..."

General Froberville.

Mhoira: the "Swann's wife" mentioned in Swann's Way is Swann's father's wife. Remember, the narrator's grandfather and Swann's father were friends, and the grandfather is telling a story about his friend (the elder Swann)'s grief at the loss of his wife.

Madame X wrote: "Kalliope - yes, that's right. I thought either Swann planned to play middleman or that the General had directed his attention & he planned to swoop if the General hadn't."

Ah, may be.. yes...

I have posted in the Thread Links on Proust a sort of chronology of the plot... it may not be entirely reliable, is in French, and it contains spoilers for the latter part of the story, but you may find it useful for the early period.

Jason wrote: "Really? I thought it was an incredibly astute observation of adolescence."

And I might have felt the same if it weren't for the juxtaposition with Swann. Because you're right, I have enough of the same memories to sympathize.

But there's something incestuous about the whole thing, especially the way that the narrator's obsession filtered from Gilberte to Odette.

Madame X: Swann was not going to Combray to pursue Mme Cambremer. This is that constant intermingling of Proust's timeline. In the first part of Swann's Way, the narrator is a child; and when Swann comes to visit them in Combray he is already married. He always visits alone because they "do not care to receive his wife."
Then, confusingly enough, we have the passage of Mme de Saint-Euverte's party, where we meet (but have already heard of, she being Legrandin'sister) the young Mme de Cambremer. This section takes place, the narrator tells us, before his birth.

Madame X wrote: "But there's something incestuous about the whole thing, especially the way that the narrator's obsession filtered from Gilberte to Odette."

Hmm...I'm trying to understand your point, but I cannot figure how this is in any way incestuous. The narrator is not related to any of these people, right? Am I missing something here?

Elizabeth wrote: "Madame X: Swann was not going to Combray to pursue Mme Cambremer. This is that constant intermingling of Proust's timeline. In the first part of Swann's Way, the narrator is a child; and when Sw..."

Well, he may or may not have. One of the things that I love most about the book are the gaps - we don't know everything that the characters do; in fact, we only see little slices of their lives, little pinholes into the darkness. Did you notice the spot where Proust dropped in something about Swann having engaged in duels? Duels! But instead of reading about that, we see him poring over railway timetables.

In any case, the precise moment we're talking about takes place after the Sainte-Euverte gala and before the marriage. Swann, who hasn't been able to leave Paris for so long because Odette may reappear there, finally feels free enough to leave the city. We don't know for how long & don't follow the visit.

He marries Odette later -- ironically, after his need for her as abated and he feels free again.

Jason wrote: "Hmm...I'm trying to understand your point, but I cannot figure how this is in any way incestuous. The narrator is not related to any of these people, right? Am I missing something here? "

No, they're not blood relations. Maybe it's just me.

Madame X wrote: "Kalliope - yes, that's right. I thought either Swann planned to play middleman or that the General had directed his attention & he planned to swoop if the General hadn't."

That's what I thought. The General was particularly interested in her (and not to concerned that she was married) and that planted a seed in Swann's mind. Not to mention much of this occured around the playing of Vinteuil's sonata. Swann then wrote a letter to the Narrator's grandfather that he was coming to Combray "having learned that Mme. Cambremer was spending a few days there." And then this passage (that I love because I was able to relate it to parts of my own life) I believe was in regards to her:

"As the different circumstances that bring us into contact with certain people do not coincide with the period in which we are in love with them, but, overlapping it, may occur before love has begun, and may be repeated after it has ended, the earliest appearances in our lives of a person who is destined to take our fancy later on assume retrospectively in our eyes a certain value as an indication, a warning, as presage." (ML edition approximately page 540)