The Year of Reading Proust discussion

This thread is for the discussion that will take place through Sunday, 10 Feb. of Swann's Way, to page 457 in ML / page 334 in LD (to the paragraph beginning “It was at the Marquise de Saint-Euverte’s...” / “It was at the home of the Marquise de Saint-Euverte...”)

Phillida wrote: "Can anyone pinpoint the passage in which one of the gossipy women says that Odette's mother, back in Nice, sold Odette to a rich Englishman when she was barely out of girlhood? That's the only clu..."

“By what trapdoor, suddenly opened, had he (who in the past had derived only refined pleasures from his love for Odette) been roughly dropped into this new circle of hell from which he could not see how he would ever get out? Poor Odette! He did not hold it against her. She was only half guilty. Didn’t people say it was her own mother who had handed her over to a rich Englishman in Nice when she was hardly more than a child” LD

Speaking of unification of the novel, there's an interesting repetition of "orange", which started in the Combray section with the description of the Guermantes family, and the "-antes" syllable from "Guermantes" that Kalliope pointed out. Remember the Narrator's illusion about the Duchess? I'm quoting from the LD translation since that is more faithful to the literal translation.

“...I knew this was where the castellans, the Duc and Duchesse de Guermantes, lived, I knew they were real and presently existing figures, but when I thought about them, I pictured them to myself sometimes made of tapestry...sometimes completely impalpable like the image of Geneviève de Brabant, ancestor of the Guermantes family, which our magic lantern sent wandering over the curtains of my room or up to the ceiling—but always wrapped in the mystery of Merovingian times and bathing as though in a sunset in the orange light emanating from that syllable antes...”

After the pianist finished with playing "la phrase" that affected Swann so much,

“...And while Mme. Verdurin was saying to her husband: “Come, give him some orangeade, he certainly deserves it,” Swann was describing to Odette how he had been in love with that little phrase....”

Here's more of the "orange." Also, note the repetition of "pink" as in the Pink Lady courtesan from the Combray passage, and "chrysanthemum" which Swann kept in his drawer as a reminder of his first glow of passion with Odette, when she appeared to be under his control, mesmerized by him. Another interesting symbolism of the chrysanthemum is how it went from being rare to being common. There's a repetition of light from the Combray section.

“...a row of those fat chrysanthemums which were still rare at that time, yet nothing like the ones that horticulturalists later succeeded in obtaining. Swann was irritated by the fashion that had favored them since the previous year, but he had taken pleasure, this time, in seeing the half-light of the room striped with pink, orange, and white by the fragrant rays of those ephemeral stars which light up on gray days. Odette had received him in a morning gown of pink silk, her neck and arms bare...”

In the part where Odette played him against Forcheville to inspire his possessiveness. Repetition of shadow, as in the Magic Lantern:

“And so at these moments, while she was making orangeade for them, suddenly, as when a poorly adjusted reflector at first casts on the wall around an object large fantastic shadows which then fold and disappear into it, all the terrible shifting ideas he had formed for himself about Odette would vanish, would rejoin the charming body that stood there in front of him. He would have the sudden suspicion that this hour spent at Odette’s house, in the lamplight, was perhaps not an artificial hour,... that the world inhabited by Odette was not that other frightful and supernatural world where he spent his time locating her and which perhaps existed only in his imagination, but rather the real world, radiating no special sadness,... for if by absorbing his dreams they had delivered him from them, they in return had been enriched by them, they showed him the palpable realization of his dreams, and they interested his mind, they assumed substance and shape before his eyes at the same time that they soothed his heart.”

I forgot to mention the references to "curtain", significant to the description of the entrance of "la phrase." Curtain connoting something which veils and unveils, throwing a shadow, shading/unshading light, fluid and moving. That is also contained in the first quote regarding the Guermantes family,..."I pictured them to myself sometimes made of tapestry..."

I love how Proust prepared us for the mating "dance" with the musical dance of "la phrase", the lifting of the curtain to the whole show. In one paragraph with the introduction of "la phrase", he managed to foreshadow, unify and set the mood for the whole dynamic between the ballet of Swann and Odette.

Phillida wrote: "Does anyone remember the film GIGI and Colette's novel GIGI?
Gigi is short for Gilberte. She's a schoolgirl at the turn of the twentieth century being trained by her aunt and mother, I think, in t..."

I love the movie "Gigi"! But I saw it as a child, hence I didn't know she was being trained to be a courtesan! I will have to watch the film again and read Colette's book. Thank you for reminding me. I think it was J.A. that mentioned "sugar daddy."

Odette is preparing to leave for the theatre and Swann attempts to convince to stay with him. "What I must know is whether you are indeed one of those creatures in the lowest grade of mentality and even of charm, one of those contemptible creatures who are incapable of foregoing a pleasure. And if you are such, how could anyone love you, for you are not even a person, a clearly defined entity, imperfect but at least perfectible. You are a formless water that will trickle down any slope that offers itself, a fish devoid of memory, incapable of thought, which all its life long in its aquarium will continue to dash itself against the glass wall, always mistaking it for water. Do you realize that your answer will have the effect- I won't say of making me cease loving you immediately, of course, but of making you less attractive in my eyes when I realize you are not a person, that you are beneath everything in the world and incapable of raising yourself one inch higher." pp.412

Fascinating! Two things are active in this passage. He is attempting to coerce Odette into staying with him (part of his need to know where she is, part need to possess her). His coercion takes a rather verbally abusive stream. However, again, if I step back and look at it from another angle, he might using a defense mechanism called projection. Wherein, he projects upon Odette his thoughts of himself or possibly what he believes she may think of him. I would support this with any of his actions where he adapts his behavior/thoughts/emotions to meet those of Odette's needs. His willingness to stop going to the Verdurins' and to avoid Pierrefonds. I think the following also shows how he flails himself "against the aquarium walls": "When the day dawned on which it was possible that she might return, he opened the time table again, calculated what train she might have taken, and should she postpone her departure, what trains were still left for her to take. he did not leave the house for fear of missing a telegram, did not go to bed in case, having by the last train, she decided to surprise him with a midnight visit". And we know that Odette had, in fact, returned early and had not given him a thought. He becomes the 'formless water" and takes whatever shape he perceives Odette desires.

Phillida wrote: Does anyone remember the film GIGI and Colette's novel GIGI?

I love Gigi and always wondered how accurate a portrayal it was of the lives of courtesans. You must be right about the Proust connection. It's a much lovelier version of the Swann/Odette story. A story about a man's desire to protect a girl's innocence, really. Ah...too late for Odette, even though Swann does initially feel she's innocent and guileless. He seems to mistake a lack of sophistication and education as innocence.

Denise wrote: "Fascinating! Two things are active in this passage. He is attempting to coerce Odette into staying with him (part of his need to know where she is, part need to possess her). His coercion takes a rather verbally abusive stream. However, again, if I step back and look at it from another angle, he might using a defense mechanism called projection... "

This ties it back to the beginning with the projection of the Magic Lantern, the illusion, the dream. All the characters in a dream are projections of ourselves. Interesting psychology there.

Another thing that is interesting from the beginning of the book is the idea of a void that started by how intense the Narrator child's emotion was when he was denied his mother's kiss of "peace." That idea was reiterated in the Odette/Swann section.

“Yet he actually suspected that what he thus longed for was a calm, a peace that would not have been a favorable atmosphere for his love. When Odette ceased to be for him a creature always absent, longed for, imaginary, when the feeling he had for her was no longer the same mysterious disturbance caused in him by the phrase from the sonata, but affection, gratitude, when normal relations were established between them that would put an end to his madness and his gloom, then no doubt the actions of Odette’s daily life would appear to him of little interest in themselves” LD

Proust does love the symbolism of flowers. Can it be just a coincidence that the narrator describes Swann placing a bouquet of 'ancolies' or columbines in his buttonhole and then tells us that Swann had been feeling sad for sometime?

Isn't it clever (well, I'm feeling clever, it must be the effects of the single malt) how we're only given Swann's point of view and yet can see through how Odette is manipulating him even though he is still giving her so much credit. That incident with the letters she gave him to post; surely she must have known that he would be so tantalised by a letter to Forcheville that he would try to decipher it?

Although now I'm no longer feeling so clever (Aberfeldy is causing the same kind of 'paresse d'esprit' as Swann suffered): Why does she say she was right to open, it was my uncle, when in fact she didn't open the door to Forcheville? He was the one who rang and then was dismissed when Swann was there wasn't he?

I'm not at that point yet but I'm just bowled over by the heart wrenching descriptions of the torture Swann is putting himself through over his doubts about Odette's real feelings for him.
And all of Swann's trauma hinges on our never being given Odette's point of view.

It's interesting that you talk about his doubts about Odette's real feelings for him. What struck me was how little he seems to question her actual feelings, how what appears crucial to him is whether his relationship with her is exclusive. Whether she has taken anything from him, learned from him. Whether he holds any sway over her. Not much about her feelings as such.

Doesn't his anxiety that her intimate smiles, etc are not also being offered to others equal a questioning on his part about her feelings for him?

Fionnuala wrote: "Proust does love the symbolism of flowers. Can it be just a coincidence that the narrator describes Swann placing a bouquet of 'ancolies' or columbines in his buttonhole and then tells us that Swan..."

Re flowers, I live in a warm climate and am not familiar with the hawthorn tree or shrub. Do its flowers really smell like almonds, as Proust suggests at one point?

Fionnuala wrote: "I'm not at that point yet but I'm just bowled over by the heart wrenching descriptions of the torture Swann is putting himself through over his doubts about Odette's real feelings for him.
And all..."

I'm in exactly the same position. I do have some sympathy for Odette though, which could be misplaced.

I think that hawthorn has quite an unpleasant smell, at least as I remember it from my childhood!
I've never come across hawthorn in France so perhaps the French variety does smell of almonds.

Karen wrote: "Isn't it clever (well, I'm feeling clever, it must be the effects of the single malt) how we're only given Swann's point of view and yet can see t"

I've just come to a section where we are given Odette's point of view, but in a very subtle way and I cant figure whether it is really her p.o.v. or not. It begins "Certes quand Odette venait de faire quelque chose qu'elle ne voulait pas révéler..." (When Odette had just done something she didn't want to reveal...)

Aloha wrote: "This ties it back to the beginning with the projection of the Magic Lantern, the illusion, the dream. All the characters in a dream are projections of ourselves....
...the idea of a void that started by how intense the Narrator child's emotion was when he was denied his mother's kiss of "peace." "

And I see a unifying theme coming through all this with the whole idea of the search for that special pleasure, that 'plaisir particulier', 'plaisir irraisonné' that the narrator mentioned back in the section where he despairs of his ability to ever become a writer. There's that scene where Dr Percepied picks them up from a long walk on the Guermantes way, and he has one of those moments when he sees the two bell towers of Martinville - one of those moments when objects are suddenly imbued with a magical power, when they seem to both hide and reveal something to him, there's something in, or beyond, or behind, those objects. Is he projecting onto those objects? He says the secret is in them:
"..ils avaient l'air de cacher au-delà de ce que je voyais, quelque chose qu'ils invitaient à venir prendre et que malgré mes efforts je n'arrivais pas à découvrir. Comme je sentais que cela se trouvait en eux, je restais là, immobile, à regarder, à respirer, à tacher d'aller avec ma pensée au-delà de l'image ou de l'odeur."
There's an ambiguity there, on the one hand he says this magical power is within the object or the smell, and yet at the same time he betrays that it's his thought, his imagination, it is him as a thinking subject that creates this depth of secret meaning.

I'm beginning to see a similarity here to Swann's love: Odette is like an object which he desires and onto which he projects all sorts of qualities, ideas, and ideals. None of which Odette would necessarily recognise as part of her furniture if she knew. But the process is similar: by observing and thinking of her so much, he turns her into a screen onto which he projects all his feelings.

Fionnuala wrote: "Doesn't his anxiety that her intimate smiles, etc are not also being offered to others equal a questioning on his part about her feelings for him?"

Oh, yes, of course that plays a role, but it doesn't feel like the main focus of his concern to me.

Karen wrote: "by observing and thinking of her so much, he turns her into a screen onto which he projects all his feelings. "

That is such a great way to put it.

Fionnuala wrote: "I've just come to a section where we are given Odette's point of view, but in a very subtle way and I cant figure whether it is really her p.o.v. or not. It begins "Certes quand Odette venait de faire quelque chose qu'elle ne voulait pas révéler..." (When Odette had just done something she didn't want to reveal...)
"

Oh, I know, it's hard to figure out if that is how Swann sees her or whether this is information from our narrator. And we will always privilege the information given by the narrator.

Karen wrote: "....I'm beginning to see a similarity here to Swann's love: Odette is like an object which he desires and onto which he projects all sorts of qualities, ideas, and ideas. None of which Odette would necessarily recognise as part of her furniture if she knew. But the process is similar: by observing and thinking of her so much, he turns her into a screen onto which he projects all his feelings."

Well put, Karen.This is just one of the places where there is a blurring between Swann, the narrator and Proust himself.
I get the impression that Proust created screens all the time and projected his feelings on to them. That this is his way of operating. That the entire A la recherche is like a giant screen..

Karen wrote: What struck me was how little he seems to question her actual feelings, how what appears crucial to him is whether his relationship with her is exclusive.

I was struck that Swann wasn't at all curious as to what Odette did outside their time together or even about her past. She doesn't exist outside of his existence, which is the kind of consciousness little children have.

Fionnuala wrote: Proust does love the symbolism of flowers.

Using flowers as coded language was very popular during Victorian times.

I'm reposting this here. My bookmarking in my eBook was messed up yesterday because I accidentally clicked one off. That's why some of my posts last night should have been in here: Also, constantly popping in and out of three versions of ISOLT is messing with my equilibrium. I have to make sure I'm not typing in Spanish. :o)

Denise wrote: "That said, she is not a character that draws warmth or compassion. Swann, on the other hand, is more real to us. We know his thoughts, actions and Narrator's perceptions of him. Odette's behaviors do not demonstrate a loving capacity. But would we feel differently about Odette if we knew more of her thoughts and feelings on a first hand basis? "

Good point. Which brings me to the Verdurins' viewpoint on Swann, which is sympathetic to Odette. Note the repetition of a scene from Combray, except that Swann is compared to a chicken that refused to die.

“Did you see the airs Swann is pleased to put on with us?” Mme Verdurin asked her husband when they had reached home. “I was afraid he was going to eat me, simply because we offered to take Odette back. It’s positively indecent! Why doesn’t he say straight out that we keep a bawdy-house? I can’t conceive how Odette can stand such manners. He literally seems to be saying, ‘You belong to me!’ I shall tell Odette exactly what I think about it all, and I hope she’ll have the sense to understand me.

A moment later she added, inarticulate with rage: “No, but, don’t you agree, the filthy creature …” unwittingly using, perhaps in obedience to the same obscure need to justify herself—like Françoise at Combray, when the chicken refused to die—the very words which the last convulsions of an inoffensive animal in its death throes wring from the peasant who is engaged in taking its life. ML

Aloha wrote: "I'm reposting this here. My bookmarking in my eBook was messed up yesterday because I accidentally clicked one off. That's why some of my posts last night should have been in here: Also, constan..."
I am glad you reposted this here. You will see why in a minute.

"Physically, she was going through a bad phase; she was putting on weight , and the expressive, sorrowful charm, the surprised, wistful expression of old seemed to have vanished with her first youth. So that she had become more precious to Swann as it were just at the moment when he found her distinctly less good-looking. .....And yet the knowledge that within this new chrysalis it was still Odette who lurked, still the same, fleeting, sly, elusive will, enough to keep Swann seeking as passionately as ever to capture her" ML pp.414

This is, that I recall, the longest mention of Odette's change in appearance. Granted, he has thoughts where he battles his own impressions of Odette's beauty but this section is different. My first thought (because of weight gain, change in expression and the use of the word chrysalis) is that she is pregnant. But he was "seeking as passionately as ever to capture her".

Could it be, that the Odette we have been seeking (her thoughts, feelings, understanding of her actions) can be found beginning here. Dealing with someone's obsession is exceedingly tiring. When the object of the obsession is an individual the constant explanation of where, what, how you are doing things is exhausting. I used the word smothering in relation to obsession in an earlier post. It is relevent her. Swann spends a tremendous amount of energy initially claiming that he had little knowledge of Odette's day but then he becomes bedeviled with alleviating his anxieties. He develops plans for being where she is, having her accompanied by M. de Charlus, living in the shop above her seamstress, etc.

Maybe the Verdurins are screening Odette from Swann. Maybe the change in her appearance, her lies, her evasions are a means of evading/avoiding his "harangues" which could (at least once) be abusive. He fails to acknowledge her borders when he attempts to capture her. Of course it is possible, that she is pregnant and harassed.

As to Forcheville being in the house when Swann makes his surprise visit, A woman in an abusive relationship does not disclose that male friends visit. I am not eliminating the possibility that she in acting the courtesan but maybe there is another explanation.

Replying to my own message 12: I suppose now in the clear light of morning that Forcheville was still in the house when Swann came back an hour later, having heard movement and steps the first time he was there. When he came back after an hour, Odette did let him in, so presumably the 'uncle' to whom she opened was Swann. And Forcheville was probably hiding in the boudoir.
I was a bit thrown by the strange logic in Swann's thoughts. When he makes out that sentence in Odette's letter, 'I was right to open the door, it was my uncle' the text says something like 'Open! So Forcheville must have been there just now when Swann had rung and she had had him sent away' There's a bit of a discrepancy between open and being sent away.
An example of how Proust brings you up short every now and again. And maybe how we are forced to mistrust Swann's view of things.

A propos the blending of Swann and the narrator: on page 292 of my folio classique edition, the pain that Swann feels when he has seen Odette out somewhere having a good time with others, and he returns home alone, is compared to the same kind of pain that the narrator felt when Swann came to the house in Combray for dinner.

And a confirmation of this theme of turning mundane life into something quasi-religious, of filling objects, smells, anything, with a supra-reality, with a quality of the spiritual. Swann dreams (ironically) of a very mundane, 'normal' life with Odette as her husband, going for a little walk and carrying her coat for her if she gets too warm, but it's by sharing the Nothingness with Odette, taking part in her life that the familiar takes on this 'douceur surabondante' and 'densité mystérieuse'.

Denise wrote: "Aloha wrote: "I'm reposting this here. My bookmarking in my eBook was messed up yesterday because I accidentally clicked one off. That's why some of my posts last night should have been in here: ..."

The fact that he found her most desirable at the point when he finds her least physically attractive, because he kept on gazing at her old photographs that he find exquisite, lays out the psychology of the intense attraction to the illusion, to what is not there, to a memory that can add a layer to itself to suit its purpose.

Swann's obsession is scary, even to the point of stalking her and hiring a private investigator on her. If he must hire a private investigator and finds she's not fooling around on him, he should leave it at that and start trusting her. Also, in those days, since women were generally reliant on men economically, women were considered chattels, since society has made it that men paid for their women. What Swann did may seem like crossing the boundary to us, but it could also be considered the norm. If a man paid for something, hence owning it, then he has a right to do what he will with it. It's the "smart" (Odette's term :o)) women who can play the game that was built into society.

In addition to the Verdurins' assessment of Swann, the Princesse des Laumes said:

"Really, if Swann were thirty years older and had bladder trouble, one would excuse him for running off like that. But the fact is he doesn't care what people think." LD

Karen wrote: "Replying to my own message 12: I suppose now in the clear light of morning that Forcheville was still in the house when Swann came back an hour later, having heard movement and steps the first time..."

This section on the dynamics between Swann and Odette is masterfully done. The narration has multiple layers. There's Proust telling the story of the Narrator telling the story of Swann telling his observation of Odette, with a few side observations of the Verdurins and other minor characters thrown in. We are never sure what the real story is.

Fionnuala wrote: "Karen wrote: "Isn't it clever (well, I'm feeling clever, it must be the effects of the single malt) how we're only given Swann's point of view and yet can see t"

I've just come to a section where ..."

This section is very interesting in the subtlety of the shifts which started with Swann spontaneously showing up at Odette's place (boy, he sure keeps track of her routine!), her not answering, then when he came back an hour later, she told him that she was napping, and he internally guessing her motives. To me, it is still strongly Swann's point of view, him guessing Odette's motives. It was never Odette's point of view. Or, to be specific, Proust's observation of the Narrator's observation of Swann's observation of Odette. My guess is that Swann's experience is tied to the Narrator's, so it's important to note why the Narrator is remembering Swann's intense jealousy, illusions, and guesswork of other's motives.

Un jour que Swann était sorti au milieu de l’après-midi pour faire une visite, n’ayant pas trouvé la personne qu’il voulait rencontrer, il eut l’idée d’entrer chez Odette à cette heure où il n’allait jamais chez elle, mais où il savait qu’elle était toujours à la maison à faire sa sieste ou à écrire des lettres avant l’heure du thé,...

One day when Swann had gone out in the middle of the afternoon to pay a call, not having found the person he wanted to see, it occurred to him to go to Odette's house at an hour when he never went there, but when he knew she was always at home having her nap or writing letters before teatime.... (LD)

One day when Swann had gone out early in the afternoon to pay a call, and had failed to find the person he wished to see, it occurred to him to go to see Odette instead, at an hour when, although he never called on her then as a rule, he knew that she was always at home resting or writing letters until tea-time,... (ML)

Phillida, J.A., Aloha: re "Gigi." Of course--was it you, Aloha?--didnt get it in the film. It was made in a rather puritanical (compatarively) era. The novella makes it quite clear in several places. One of the funniest is when Gigi (who is 15) says, "Yes, I know; we do not marry," and her Aunt Alicia replies, "Not quite; we do not marry at once...we marry (sometimes) at last." (This is all rudely paraphrased, I'm afraid). Colette was good friends with several of "Les Grandes Horizontales": Liane de Pougy, Otero, etc. So she probably knew whereof she spoke.

Aloha wrote: "Also, in those days, since women were generally reliant on men economically, women were considered chattels, since society has made it that men paid for their women."

And a chattel is a "possession". (And sometimes an obsession.)

Aloha, Ian: women as chattel. When the first Xtian missionaries entered China (I'm thinking 18th cent) the Chinese were horrified at these "barbarians" whose women had no legal rights whatsoever. Footbinding notwithstanding, Chinese women even then could own their own property, sue (and be sued) independently...and when the missionaries objected to the footbinding the Chinese said rather cogently, "At least we don't constrict and bind our women's vital organs," referring to corsets.

Paradoxically, both types of binding were in the name of beauty or aesthetics.

Elizabeth wrote: "Aloha, Ian: women as chattel. When the first Xtian missionaries entered China (I'm thinking 18th cent) the Chinese were horrified at these "barbarians" whose women had no legal rights whatsoever. ..."

Some things haven't changed. Look at those spike heels that adversely affect the feet. It's all about how we all fall into one illusion or another, even as a society. A male tranvestite friend loves the "illusion" of womanhood by wearing hosiery and heels. All this is highly influenced by our desires, of course. The higher libido of men (strong desire) is an influence on society. Studies have shown that men have a higher need for physical aesthetics in attraction than women. And women usually look at men in terms of economic/family survival.

Aloha wrote: "..... To me, it is still strongly Swann's point of view, him guessing Odette's motives. It was never Odette's point of view. Or, to be specific, Proust's observation of the Narrator's observation of Swann's observation of Odette. My guess is that Swann's experience is tied to the Narrator's, so it's important to note why the Narrator is remembering Swann's intense jealousy, illusions, and guesswork of other's motives.."

Yes, Aloha, I think you've summed it up. But it is quite a surprise to suddenly be given these insights (and there are several) into Odette's way of operating. Of course it only happens in relation to some preoccupation of Swann's, never a spontaneous insight into Odette's mindset regarding other people or things unrelated to him.

J.A. wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: Proust does love the symbolism of flowers.Can it be just a coincidence that the narrator describes Swann placing a bouquet of 'ancolies' or columbines in his buttonhole and then tells us that Swan had been feeling sad..."

Using flowers as coded language was very popular during Victorian times."

I was thinking of the similarity between the name of the flower, 'ancolie' and the word 'melancolie' meaning sadness. Proust must have thought long and hard about even such minor details.

Karen wrote: "And a confirmation of this theme of turning mundane life into something quasi-religious, of filling objects, smells, anything, with a supra-reality, with a quality of the spiritual...."

On the two occasions when he tries to peer through Odette's bedroom window, the light pouring through the crack in the shutter reminds him of the jewel encrusted cover of an illuminated manuscript, which when opened, he is certain will reveal mysteries...but of course mundane reality intervenes.

Karen wrote: "..it must be the effects of the single malt.... Why does she say she was right to open, it was my uncle, when in fact she didn't open the door to Forcheville? He was the one who rang and then was dismissed when Swann was there wasn't he? "

I'm struck more, and it could be the effect of the Chateau d'Arcins, by the passage just before this, when Swann feels pity for Odette caught in a duplicitous situation, rather than for himself, the victim of the duplicity. Swann has ALL my sympathy.....at the moment.

Two thoughts: It is interesting (at least to me) that, so far, except for Ian, only women are commenting on this part of the novel.

And re: Colette and MP, here is Colette on meeting Marcel: “When I was a very young woman, he was a very good-looking young man. Trust the portrait of him by Jacques-Emile Blanche. That narrow mouth, that mist around the eyes, that tired freshness, both the features and the expression really are those of the young Marcel Proust.”

I have more on their literary relationship here: http://marimann.wordpress.com/2007/12...

Mari wrote: "Two thoughts: It is interesting (at least to me) that, so far, except for Ian, only women are commenting on this part of the novel.

And re: Colette and MP, here is Colette on meeting Marcel: “When..."

The guys are afraid to say what they really think. They might get verbally skewered, especially with this crowd. Ian loves women. He knows how to get in with us. ;o)

I thought Marcel was a handsome man in his youth. He and his brother received their dark good looks from their mom.

Fionnuala wrote: "Karen wrote: "..it must be the effects of the single malt.... Why does she say she was right to open, it was my uncle, when in fact she didn't open the door to Forcheville? He was the one who rang ..."

I love books in which the author writes in such a way that the sympathy and interpretation can change according to the reader.

Fionnuala wrote: "Karen wrote: "And a confirmation of this theme of turning mundane life into something quasi-religious, of filling objects, smells, anything, with a supra-reality, with a quality of the spiritual......"

Proust's play with perception is amazing. Once you get into his descriptions, you weave from magic to reality and back.

Aloha wrote: "Mari wrote: "Two thoughts: It is interesting (at least to me) that, so far, except for Ian, only women are commenting on this part of the novel.

And re: Colette and MP, here is Colette on meeting ..."

Ha, Aloha, you are right. C'mon, guys, show us what you've got. We promise to be gentle. :)

Also, Ian is a poet. Gotta love a poet that reads Proust.

Aloha wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Karen wrote: "..it must be the effects of the single malt.... Why does she say she was right to open, it was my uncle, when in fact she didn't open the door to Forcheville? He was..."

I think that my sympathy and interpretation has changed multiple times as my reading progresses. Proust's writing has much to do with this. He weaves such a multiple level story. I am, maybe, inclined to do more of the psych interpretations because of my healthcare background. The prose, the imagery, the provoked emotion are all wonderful. That is not to mention the company while reading. Thank you.

Fionnuala wrote: "Karen wrote: "And a confirmation of this theme of turning mundane life into something quasi-religious, of filling objects, smells, anything, with a supra-reality, with a quality of the spiritual......"

Perhaps we haven't paid enough attention to light and illumination.

Of course, whenever I see that word, I think of Walter Benjamin (and his cousin, Hannah Arendt).

Mari wrote: "I have more on their literary relationship here: http://marimann.wordpress.com/2007/12... ."

You know what you are talking about.