The Year of Reading Proust discussion

This thread is for the discussion that will take place through Sunday, 3 Feb. of Swann's Way, to page 379 in ML / page 277 in LD (end of page in ML, to the paragraph beginning “One day, when reflections of this sort had brought him back...” / “One day when reflections of this kind were leading him back...”)

J.A.:
"The introduction of Odette's physical appearance is very complex. On the one hand, the Narrator explains why Swann didn't find her attractive. On the other hand, the Narrator seems compelled to add that Odette's appearance was not at its best advantage dressed in the fashion of the time even though Odette's fashion sense was impeccable. A clear case of "the dress wearing her". The Narrator's explanation read almost like an apology, a defense of Odette. And yet, it also underlines that Odette doesn't have the inherent taste for aesthetics the way Swann does: she understands and follows the latest fashions but doesn't understand her own beauty."

J.A., it started when he saw Odette as a Botticelli. I think this explains a lot the dynamics between Swann and Odette, ML translation. Although the seamstress is more of his physical type, he prefers to spend time with Odette and "la phrase" to reminisce when something inside him awakened.

"Besides, as he infinitely preferred to Odette’s style of beauty that of a young seamstress, as fresh and plump as a rose, with whom he was smitten, he preferred to spend the first part of the evening with her, knowing that he was sure to see Odette later on."

"He would enter the drawing-room...to the place kept for him beside Odette, the pianist would play to them—for their two selves—the little phrase by Vinteuil which was, so to speak, the national anthem of their love....but Swann thought that he could now discern in it some disenchantment. It seemed to be aware how vain, how hollow was the happiness to which it showed the way. In its airy grace there was the sense of something over and done with, like the mood of philosophic detachment which follows an outburst of vain regret. But all this mattered little to him; he contemplated the little phrase less in its own light—in what it might express to a musician who knew nothing of the existence of him and Odette when he had composed it, and to all those who would hear it in centuries to come—than as a pledge, a token of his love,...that while it was addressed to them it did not know them, he almost regretted that it had a meaning of its own, an intrinsic and unalterable beauty, extraneous to themselves,..."

Aloha wrote: "J.A., it started when he saw Odette as a Botticelli."

Hmm...I think this might be a bit oversimplified. Swann falling for Odette is initially described as being a more mature response to love's calling than what Swann would have been used to in his younger days. Instead of feelings being initiated on the basis of raw desire (on the part of Swann), it's more that love is being built on the tenderness of knowing a person is smitten with you. Kind of like that the 'raw desire' can be bypassed or filled in later (that desire deriving from love rather than vice versa). The part about Boticelli I think is actually describing a reconciliation of Swann's aesthetics, bridging the 'idea' with the 'reality.' I like the concept that, because certain features of Odette remind him of a Boticelli, what appeals to him about the one helps to strengthen his like for the other, almost as if the two are designed to complement one another.

That doesn't mean Swann isn't still a dirty dog, though, what with that (view spoiler)[seamstress on the side (hide spoiler)]. (He ain't a playa, he just crushes a lot.)

I think it's interesting that he's chosen a Boticelli figure as the parallel for Odette, rather than a Raphael or a Leonardo, for example. He has reservations about Boticelli's art, I think, just as he has doubts about Odette's character but he uses the one to shore up the other. It's all such complex motivation.

Jason wrote: The part about Boticelli I think is actually describing a reconciliation of Swann's aesthetics, bridging the 'idea' with the 'reality.'

I feel the same.

Fionnuala wrote: He has reservations about Boticelli's art, I think, just as he has doubts about Odette's character but he uses the one to shore up the other. It's all such complex motivation.

Great point.

From my reading thus far, I really see the seduction as being Odette's seduction of Swann. She's using all the arts of a courtesan to endear herself to Swann. And he's falling for it, even believing that she likes him. And it seems as if this is the first time that he's ever been chased so he might be a little inexperienced in this arena. Would he ever have fallen so hard for Odette if he hadn't gone that evening to the Verdurins' and heard the music?

Jason wrote: "Aloha wrote: "J.A., it started when he saw Odette as a Botticelli."

Hmm...I think this might be a bit oversimplified. Swann falling for Odette is initially described as being a more mature respons..."

It is complicated. Swann is someone who's seen the best of the best of beauty and grew bored. He prefers the vulgar kind of beauty and attention from women who is impressed with him for himself, without knowing too much about his world. He feels appreciated by them. But he admires beauty from fine art. Odette was a courtesan who knows how to lavish him with attention, yet pretends to be of the aesthetics that Swann loves. So, somehow Odette managed to straddle both worlds that attracts Swann such that, he convinced himself that she is like a Botticelli in order to live in the ideal of his love.

I don't think this is the first time Swann's been chased, but I think it's the first time someone managed to appear to reconcile both worlds for Swann. He probably would not have fallen hard for Odette if he was not inspired by "la phrase."

I think Proust did a masterful job in this section discussing all the compromises and justifications people make to ideals when they are in love, especially from Swann's perspective. The changes in his thoughts and approaches to aesthetics, the compromises he makes between his usual tastes and Odette's preferences, and the psychology of those shifts -- all beautifully presented, both in prose and in dialogue.

Swann's bringing Odette to mind as he looks at paintings and listens to music she enjoys, and makes other compromises, seems like another approach to thinking about memory -- in this case, using short-term memory to evoke a lover.

Compromises and justifications, oh my!

I couldn't agree with this more. It's like the musings of a man who feels the need to rationalize his choices because they so inherently contradict the life he's built for himself so far. I'm not sure if I'm getting ahead of myself but to me, reading this section (which I agree is wonderful, by the way), is like watching the beginnings of a train wreck. If Swann is really having to convince himself that being with Odette is worth all the shortcomings that go along with that, this is going to be one hell of a doomed relationship.

I like this line:

"And so," he went on, with the slight thrill of emotion which a man feels when, even without being fully aware of it, he says something not because it is true but because he enjoys saying it, and listens ot his own voice uttering the words as though they came from someone else, "the die is now cast."

Kris wrote: "I think Proust did a masterful job in this section discussing all the compromises and justifications people make to ideals when they are in love, especially from Swann's perspective. The changes in..."

Yes, Proust is just so good at tracing all the tricks we play with our minds when we want to reconcile opposing pulls. And I am not sure whether it is funny or sad.

I am very confused in this section about the times during which it is supposed to be happening. The narrator is telling us that all this (Swann's meeting Odette etc) happened before he was born. He also commented on the singular and old fashioned hairdo that Odette wore (qu'on portait alors). So, I was taking that all this was happening towards the end of the Second Empire. I realize that I am projecting Proust's birthdate onto the Narrator's, and it is a mistake to do this, but the comment on the hairdo reinforced this impression.

But then there is a reference to Gambetta's burial. That happened in 1882. And all the references to contemporary politics are in the context of a Republique.

This is then making the Narrator of a much younger age than Proust.

May be Marcelita with her amazing research techniques can find out about that peculiar hairstyle that Odette wore and when was it in fashion.

Fionnuala wrote: "I think it's interesting that he's chosen a Boticelli figure as the parallel for Odette, rather than a Raphael or a Leonardo, for example. He has reservations about Boticelli's art, I think, just a..."

Yes, the Narrator regrets that the art of Botticelli (Sandro di Mariano) has become too popular, and therefore somewhat vulgar. Very good point.

About the time this all takes place: I am reading a well-annotated French edition which informs me that the "jour de la fête de Paris-Murcie donnée poir les inondés de Mutcie" - the day he received one of the most loving tender missives from Odette, was the 18 th December 1879.

I started to feel that Odette was physically beautiful, notwithstanding that she didn't comply with Swann's ideal.

Swann's ideal seems to be based on the beauty of girls, not that of women.

Psychologically, Swann could control and dominate girls, but was shy with Odette.

So he sought out and projected his concept of beauty onto the females he met.

When I reread these sections, I started to feel that Proust sympathised with Odette against Swann.

Swann could have made his real life so much simpler if he wasn't dictated by his ridiculous ideals.

But there is another issue for me: does Odette contain some of Proust himself, in terms of appearance and health (e.g., thinness and ill health)?

Shouldn't Odette's personality be enough to appeal to Swann?

Remembering that, presumably after the period of Swann in Love, Swann did marry Odette and parent Gilberte.

Karen wrote: "About the time this all takes place: I am reading a well-annotated French edition which informs me that the "jour de la fête de Paris-Murcie donnée poir les inondés de Mutcie" - the day he received..."

What edition are you reading?

He seems to be jumping around with dates then. The Murcie episode from 79 and Gambetta's death in 82.

These discrepancies between events referred to and the dates they occurred only serve to remind us that this is fiction and that Proust is using vague memories of hearing about or seeing such events to decorate the scenes of this section.

In the first part, when the narrator has just heard of Mlle Swann, but hasn't yet seen her, he imagines her as being cut out sharply against the sky in a Gleyre painting. Gleyre (as indeed Raphael) paint a buxom beauty in contrast to Botticelli's willowy waifs. And in as much as we have already discussed how the narrator and Swann seem to have shared qualia, it seems to me that Swann is caught up between two aethetic ideals: Botticelli vs. Gleyre say. His preference is for the latter, but being an aesthete, so long as Odette conforms to any aeasthetic ideal, even Botticelli, then its as if though she's earned the right to be admired. Anyway, just a thought.

Kal, it's the folio classique by Gallimard. Edited by Antoine Compagnon.
Keeping it short 'cos I'm on that annoying little touchscreen thing.
Swann was introduced to Odette by a woman who described her as "difficile". Iwondered how that came over to the rest of you. Do you understand it to mean she's not an easy lay?

On the point of chronology: It struck me even in the Coombray part that the narrators reminiscences do not present chronologically, but I presumed this was part and parcel of the memory genre: e.g. reminiscences will layer and fold back onto themselves spiral like and nonlinearly.

Fionnuala wrote: "These discrepancies between events referred to and the dates they occurred only serve to remind us that this is fiction and that Proust is using vague memories of hearing about or seeing such event..."

Yes, and not even just fiction, but Proust's particular way of showing how minds and memories work. In the Combray section this kind of hazy writing for me was more in tune with the kind of scenes he was evoking, while in this Swann section, as he is tracing linearly how Swann develops his passion, I find this blurring of the specific moments more surprising. It ties in with the complex role of the Narrator (third person, omniscient, etc...) that we have discussed before.

Karen wrote: "Kal, it's the folio classique by Gallimard. Edited by Antoine Compagnon.
Keeping it short 'cos I'm on that annoying little touchscreen thing.
Swann was introduced to Odette by a woman who describe..."

Thank you. I have what would be the same edition (Folio- Gallimard) but which I bought years ago, and comes with no notes..!!.

And Prous't flowers continue...!!!, now the oriental catalog: orchidées, chrysanthèmes and the significant catleyas...

I found very amusing the description of Odette's place, so very full of japonisme and orientalisme... an artistic fad turned vulgar.

Karen, welcome back!
That friend who introduced him to Odette, and I think it as a male friend, was indeed implying that she wouldn't be an easy conquest and in so doing, he sought to let Swann know that he was doing him a great favor by introducing him to this challenging woman. So Swann, in fact was being duped from the very outset.

Kalliope, I think the detailed description of Odette's homa/world is fascinating, like a painting, built up layer by layer, full of surprising details which our eyes sometimes miss. We end up seeing her so clearlyl

Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope, I think the detailed description of Odette's homa/world is fascinating, like a painting, built up layer by layer, full of surprising details which our eyes sometimes miss. We end up seein..."

Yes, I like the idea of layers and layers. I also found a theatrical element in it, with the very carefully thought out lighting.

But I could not help finding it amusing with all the cushions, ribbons, fans... and the overuse of the chrystanthèmes which irritates Swann.. and then.. the Notre Dame de Laguet to top it all..!

Karen wrote: "Kal, it's the folio classique by Gallimard. Edited by Antoine Compagnon.
Keeping it short 'cos I'm on that annoying little touchscreen thing.
Swann was introduced to Odette by a woman who describe..."

Yes, I have not seen you around for a few days.. good to see you are back.

A delightful painting by Chase, but it helps in giving us a bit of Odette's flavor... but it should be in "rose"

Yes, Kalliope, that Reference to Nice is a teasing

My phone is so sensitive, that last comment flew off before it was finished. I meant P is teasing us with this little tiny reference to Odette's past as well as underlining a certain innocence in spite of the voguish decor she lives in.

Fionnuala wrote: "My phone is so sensitive, that last comment flew off before it was finished. I meant P is teasing us with this little tiny reference to Odette's past as well as underlining a certain innocence in s..."

I am still not clear in my mind vs both Odette and Swann. It is too early for me to tell, but I find them both elusive.

Odette is certainly elusive in that, while we hear of her preferences in theatre and entertainments in general, we rarely get her honest opinion about anything that really matters. Sometimes, we hear that she would prefer Swann to be this or that but otherwise, we aren't allowed inside her mind to view her motivations the way we are with Swann. He is certainly complex, and also elusive in his own way but we are being given a lot of info on how his mind works.

Fionnuala wrote: "Odette is certainly elusive in that, while we hear of her preferences in theatre and entertainments in general, we rarely get her honest opinion about anything that really matters. Sometimes, we he..."

Yes, she is the perfect seducer.

As for Swann he is just so full of contradictions, that his mind has to do a lot of work around them...!!!

On Swann, I've just read where one of his former classmates from the 'Ecole du Louvre is mentioned so Swann has studied Art History, is an art historian in fact.

Fionnuala wrote: "On Swann, I've just read where one of his former classmates from the 'Ecole du Louvre is mentioned so Swann has studied Art History, is an art historian in fact."

The novel mentions that he is working on, but has put it aside for a while (a certain dilettantisme here), the Vermeer study. I keep thinking of Charles Ephrussi, not on the personal side, but on his collecting and interest in art.

Interesting about his classmate from the Ecole du Louvre (which I have also attended...!). I have not reached that part yet (I think -- I am reading it two times and it really is in the second time that I notice things).

I love waking up to great observations and art!

Aloha wrote: "I love waking up to great observations and art!"

Aloha, do you ever go to sleep?

It's basically opposites attract. Swann is an intellectual with many layers while Odette is shallow and not that bright.

Kalliope wrote: "Aloha wrote: "I love waking up to great observations and art!"

Aloha, do you ever go to sleep?"

I don't sleep much, but I haven't been posting these last few hours of chatting, which is good. I like to read other's insights.

Wow Kalliope, the Ecole du Louvre is so hard to get in to! What an experience.

Yes,Fionnuala, you're right, it was a man who introduced Odette to Swann. I was reading that bit on the bus to Glasgow, obviously not concentrating. I'll be home on Wednesday,should be easier to read all the posts and join in then

I'm glad you reminded us of that introduction scene, Karen. It's like the foundation stone of this entire episode and it was crooked!
Safe journey home.

Jonathan wrote: "--page 226 of the LD: "The little working girl [can we know yet whether this says outright prostitute?] would wait for him near his house at a corner known to his coachman Remi, she would get in be..."

I would say the coachman takes her home then comes back for Swann. The coachman is Swann's servant, so he will do whatever Swann tells him, even if it means making a girl who displeases him walk home. But the girl pleased him, so I don't think she'll be walking. :o)

Proust gave a clear description of Odette as someone who wants taste but has no conception of it, so can only get it from secondary and banal sources.

I was catching up on the French reading and noticed something, which was helped by my reading of Proust and Signs: The Complete Text. BTW, do not read this book until you've finished all of ISOLT. It gives away spoilers and you won't appreciate Deleuze's analysis until you've known the characters.

In the section on Swann's penchant for finding features of people he know in art and vice versa, the French "à retrouver" in this instance repeats the idea of trying to find something, a reflection of the title "À la recherche du temps perdu", "In Search of Lost Time". All the characters in the book are searching for something that they've had or knew was within them, have lost it at some point, and are trying to find them again in their own ways, whether it's the Narrator, Odette or Swann.

“Swann avait toujours eu ce goût particulier d’aimer à retrouver dans la peinture des maîtres non pas seulement les caractères généraux de la réalité qui nous entoure, mais ce qui semble au contraire le moins susceptible de généralité, les traits individuels des visages que nous connaissons...”

LD:
“Swann had always had this peculiar penchant for amusing himself by rediscovering in the paintings of the masters not only the general characteristics of the real world that surrounds us, but what seems on the contrary the least susceptible to generalization, the individual features of the faces we know...”

ML:
"He had always found a peculiar fascination in tracing in the paintings of the old masters not merely the general characteristics of the people whom he encountered in his daily life, but rather what seems least susceptible of generalisation, the individual features of men and women whom he knew..."

Let me rephrase that. It's not something that was lost from the past as in a thing, but something that is eternal that they had, lost, had, etc. Something that they are always trying to recapture in their own ways.

In the passage following that passage about Swann's need to see art reflected in real people, here are some work in the description. I'm using the LD translation.

“she [Odette] struck Swann by her resemblance to the figure of Zipporah, Jethro’s daughter, in a fresco in the Sistine Chapel”




“for instance, in the material of a bust of the Doge Loredano by Antonio Rizzo, the jut of the cheekbones, the slant of the eyebrows, altogether the very evident resemblance to his coachman Rémi"




"under the colors of a Ghirlandaio, M. de Palancy’s nose"




"in a portrait by Tintoretto, the invasion of the cheek’s fat by the first implanted hairs of the side-whiskers, the break in the nose, the penetration of the gaze, the congestion of the eyelids of Dr. du Boulbon.”

Aloha wrote: "In the passage following that passage about Swann's need to see art reflected in real people, here are some work in the description. I'm using the LD translation.

“she [Odette] struck Swann by he..."

Thank you. My knowledge of art and music is woefully limited. Postings of this nature are particularly helpful.

You're welcome, Denise!

Aloha wrote: "In the passage following that passage about Swann's need to see art reflected in real people, here are some work in the description. I'm using the LD translation.

“she [Odette] struck Swann by he..."

Aloha,

You may want to post these in the Karpeles thread. Someone had been updating the paintings there but has discontinued.

Done. I put a copy in the Karpeles thread.

Laure Hayman who was mistress to the Duc d'Orleans and the king of Greece, as well as to Proust's granduncle, Louis Weill, is thought to have been one of the models for Odette but several sites which mention her career as a courtisane contain plot details we may not want to know at present. It is interesting however to note that she lived on the same street as Odette and that Proust first met her at his grand uncle's house. So is she also the model for the lady in pink?

Fionnuala wrote: "Laure Hayman who was mistress to the Duc d'Orleans and the king of Greece, as well as Proust's granduncle, Louis Weill, is thought to have been the model for Odette. Laure lived on rue Perouse. Pro..."

It would seem so, or at least inasmuch as any of Proust's characters can be said to have only one model. In a letter, Proust once mentioned a "cocotte named Clomesnil" (not sure how to spell that) as another model for Odette, but I don't know if anyone has ever identified this cocotte. Laure Hayman, years after the novel's publication, is said to have become incensed when she discovered that Proust was thought to have modeled Odette after her, and wrote scathingly about it to Proust, calling him a "monster". He wrote back and was able to placate her and allay her anger, saying how could she ever have thought such a thing? But Celeste, in Monsieur Proust, says he told her that to protect their friendship. I think she was probably the main model for the Lady in Pink, through the filter of Proust's remembrances and impressions of that earlier time.