The Year of Reading Proust discussion

This thread is for the discussion that will take place through Sunday, 7 Apr. of Within a Budding Grove, to page 502 (page break, next section starts: “That day, as for some days past...”)

Fionnuala wrote: "I've just come across a reference to someone called Beausergent. This is the second mention - the narrator's grandmother was reading Les Mémoires de Mme de Beausergent on the train earlier in this ..."

Thank you for this info. I searched also and found that Mme de Beausergent and her Memories were made up, but Proust couples them with the Letters by Mme de Sévigné. I found it odd this idea of coupling real with imagined.

Yes, it is odd that he didn't refer outright to the memoirs of the Comptesse de Boigne since they did exist. Was this because he didn't want to draw attention to her as the model for Mme de Villeparisis?
By the way, I'm just writing a review of Le Lys Rouge and, while looking up Anatole France's life I came across Léontine Lippman, who became Mme Arman de Caillavet, and was France's mistress for 22 years. She is said to have inspired the character of Thérèse and indeed the entire plot of Le Lys Rouge, but also to have been Proust's model for Mme Verdurin! She had a salon - where no boring people were allowed -and Proust used to attend it.

Fionnuala wrote: "Yes, it is odd that he didn't refer outright to the memoirs of the Comptesse de Boigne since they did exist. Was this because he didn't want to draw attention to her as the model for Mme de Villepa..."

Yes, I mentioned her in my review of Le Lys, and posted a picture... France eventually married her.

I must go back and reread your review or I'll end up repeating everything you've already worked out!

On another thing, now I am getting the sense that the Narrator is significantly older than when he first arrived in Balbec... no longer un "enfant" who sits on the sand... but clearly an "adolescent" very concerned with literature and with the world of adults.

Fionnuala wrote: "Yes, it is odd that he didn't refer outright to the memoirs of the Comptesse de Boigne since they did exist. Was this because he didn't want to draw attention to her as the model for Mme de Villepa..."

I have been looking at the Mémoires of the Comtesse de Boigne and they look very interesting... I think there are two volumes, one from Louis XVI to 1820 and the second from that date until1848. I may read the second volume first.

Published by Mercure de France, collection Le temps retrouvé...!!!

Now that Robert de Saint-Loup has appeared (in all that sunshine!), I suddenly feel as if the novel is really beginning. With Saint-Loup we are meeting the characters who will live at the center of the novel. Is all this we have been reading so far really introduction to the main segments? Or is it that we have been given a taste of the time that is to be lost?

Kalliope wrote: "On another thing, now I am getting the sense that the Narrator is significantly older than when he first arrived in Balbec... no longer un "enfant" who sits on the sand... but clearly an "adolescen..."

And yet he finishes this section in tears, offended because his gran is not at his beck and call!

Karen wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "On another thing, now I am getting the sense that the Narrator is significantly older than when he first arrived in Balbec... no longer un "enfant" who sits on the sand... but clea..."

Yes, very true, but I took this as a sign of a spoilt youth, precisely what neither the mother nor the grandma wanted to happen to him...

I just came across the word 'pince-monseigneur' -it's about fifteen pages on in this week's section and, never having heard of it, I looked it up.
I found what looks like a clever April fool:
http://www.tierslivre.net/spip/spip.p...

Fionnuala wrote: "I just came across the word 'pince-monseigneur' -it's about fifteen pages on in this week's section and, never having heard of it, I looked it up.
I found what looks like a clever April fool:
ht..."

Thank you Fionnuala... incredible...

The younger Avantgarde was prone to those Jokes that were bordering with vandalism. Earlier, in 1911, Apollinaire and Picasso stole the Mona Lisa from the Louvre...

But this other episode is of a different caliber...!

Fionnuala wrote: "I just came across the word 'pince-monseigneur' -it's about fifteen pages on in this week's section and, never having heard of it, I looked it up.
I found what looks like a clever April fool:
ht..."

That is some practical joke. I can almost feel for MP's sister-in-law.

Marcel Proust wrote: "My intelligence might have told me the opposite. But the characteristic feature of the ridiculous age I was going through—awkward indeed but by no means infertile—is that we do not consult our intelligence and that the most trivial attributes of other people seem to us to form an inseparable part of their personality. In a world thronged with monsters and with gods, we know little peace of mind. There is hardly a single action we perform in that phase which we would not give anything, in later life, to be able to annul. Whereas what we ought to regret is that we no longer possess the spontaneity which made us perform them. In later life we look at things in a more practical way, in full conformity with the rest of society, but adolescence is the only period in which we learn anything." ML p.423

Cassian wrote: "Now that Robert de Saint-Loup has appeared (in all that sunshine!), I suddenly feel as if the novel is really beginning. With Saint-Loup we are meeting the characters who will live at the center of..."

When Saint-Loup firs appears, images of the youth in Death in Venice (1912) came to my mind...

Blond young beauty but with no "monocle"

Speaking of men in Panama hats, I've just met the Baron de Charlus and I'm intrigued by the convolutions of the Guermantes extended family. If I understand correctly, Mme de Villeparisis has two nephews who are brothers, the Duc de Guermantes, who used to be the Prince des Laumes and the Baron de Charlus who is now the Prince des Laumes but prefers to keep his old title. She also has two nieces, Saint-Loup's mother and her sister who is married to their cousin, the Duc de Guermantes. So Saint-Loup's aunt is both the Princesse des Laumes whom we met in Un Amour de Swann and the Duchesse de Guermantes whom the narrator saw in the church in Combray. And of course, he also saw Charlus in the Tansonville garden in Combray with Odette and we heard of Charlus frequently in Un Amour de Swann. What a complex web...

Fionnuala wrote: "Speaking of men in Panama hats, I've just met the Baron de Charlus and I'm intrigued by the convolutions of the Guermantes extended family. If I understand correctly, Mme de Villeparisis has two ne..."

Yes, I know.. a bit confusing, but I had seen there was a genealogical tree in the web.

(view spoiler)[
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palam%C3...




(hide spoiler)]

Small but it is in the link above. I think you got it right.

Kalliope wrote: "Small but it is in the link above. I think you got it right.
."

Oh no! A spoiler!!!!

Karen wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Small but it is in the link above. I think you got it right.
."

Oh no! A spoiler!!!!"

Sorry, will edit..

"...our war cry...'Passavant,' was originally 'Combraysis,' " he (Saint-Loup) said..." ML p. 456

Enter Charlus

As common as I am I like to read of the French aristocracy: the Guermantes, Mme de Villeparisis, Saint-Loup, Charlus et al even though they are fictional creations of Marcel Proust.

Perhaps it's because my mother wrote that my grandmother's maiden name was 'Lewis' which was anglo saxonized from 'Louis' when my ancestors emigrated to Canada from Wales in ~1800; the Welsh originally called them "Louis' people" having fled by boat from the French Revolution.

True or not, I enjoy reading about the past, particularly La Belle Époque, the pre Great War days; books by James, Wharton, Proust, etc.

"M. de Charlus extolled the true "nobility" of mind and heart which characterized these women, playing upon the word in a double sense by which he himself was taken in, and in which lay the falsehood of this bastard conception, of this medley of aristocracy, generosity and art, but also its seductiveness, dangerous to people like my grandmother, to whom the less refined but more innocent prejudice of a nobleman who cared only about quarterings and took no thought for anything besides would have appeared too silly for words, whereas she was defenseless as soon as a thing presented itself under the externals of an intellectual superiority, so much so, indeed, that she regarded princes as enviable above ail other men because they were able to have a La Bruyère or a Fénelon as their tutors." ML p. 462

And since I was a very young boy I've always loved grandmothers.

Eugene wrote: ""...our war cry...'Passavant,' was originally 'Combraysis,' " he (Saint-Loup) said..." ML p. 456

Enter Charlus

As common as I am I like to read of the French aristocracy: the Guermantes, Mme de ..."

My father's family fled the religious persecution, landing in South Carolina.
http://www.huguenotsociety.org

Combraysis to you both, Marcelita and Eugene. your family links with France may explain your wonderful enthusiasm for the world of Proust.

I've just noticed another reference to La Bruyère in this week's reading, to his book, Les caractères de La Bruyère. Proust seems to like it particularly. Has anyone read it? I might pick it up the next time I'm in town. French bookshops are great for having lots of obscure classics in very cheap plain cover editions always available on the shelves but I've noticed recently that space is more and more taken up with tables full of the very colorfully covered translations of the worst of English and American best sellers...

Fionnuala wrote: "Combraysis to you both, Marcelita and Eugene. your family links with France may explain your wonderful enthusiasm for the world of Proust.

I've just noticed another reference to La Bruyère in th..."

Good catch, Fionnuala. I would be up for reading this. 17th century France is a fascinating period culturally.

M. de Saint-Loup:

“I scarcely knew my father,” he used to say. “He seems to have been a charming person. His tragedy was the deplorable age in which he lived. To have been born in the Faubourg Saint-Germain and to have to live in the days of La Belle Hélène would be enough to wreck any existence."

A scene from Jacques Offenbach's comic opera La Belle Hélène on YouTube with Dame Felicity Lott in the title role.

Can someone please explain to me what is meant by the word "literary" in this context:

"When Mme de Villeparisis asked him to describe to my grandmother some country house in which Mme de Sevigne had stayed, adding that she could not help feeling that there was something rather "literary" about that lady's distress at being parted from "that tireseome Mme de Grignan": (467)

dramatic?

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Can someone please explain to me what is meant by the word "literary" in this context:

"When Mme de Villeparisis asked him to describe to my grandmother some country house in which Mme de Sevigne ..."

The French:

"À Mme de Villeparisis qui le priait de décrire pour ma grand'mère un château où avait séjourné Mme de Sévigné, ajoutant qu'elle voyait un peu de littérature dans ce désespoir d'être de separée de cette ennuyeuse Mme de Grignan"

I understand it as "exaggerated, pretentious, overblown"... The context is the endless number of letters (hence the idea of an overdone amount of literature) exchanged between Mme de Sévigné and her daughter Mme de Grignan who after marrying went to live in Provence.

Kalliope wrote: "I understand it as "exaggerated, pretentious, overblown"... The context is the endless number of letters (hence the idea of an overdone amount of literature) exchanged between Mme de Sévigné and her daughter Mme de Grignan who after marrying went to live in Provence."

Thank you Kalliope. That is interesting when one holds the word literary in such high regard, and then see it being used to mean pretentious. Quite funny too in it used to describe an overdone amount of literature. Oh how literary, all they do is write letters! lol Obviously, something was lost in translation.

ReemK10 wrote: Can someone please explain to me what is meant by the word "literary" in this context:

"When Mme de Villeparisis asked him to describe to my grandmother some country house in which Mme de Sevigne had stayed, adding that she could not help feeling that there was something rather "literary" about that lady's distress at being parted from "that tireseome Mme de Grignan": (467)

Mme de Villeparisis is speaking; earlier she disparages, as Sainte-Beuve might do by criticizing the writers' lives rather than their work, Chateaubriand, Vigny, Hugo and Balzac, so Mme de Sévigné is in good company.

As far as "literary" goes, the ML translation is poor--there is little or no irony in the French as there is in the ML (no quotes either); what Mme de Villeparisis says in French is more directly pejorative. My translation of Proust (of what Kalliope furnished): "...adding that she saw little literature in the despair of being separated from that annoying Mme de Grignan."

Then M de Charlus sings some very beautiful thoughts of loving another, close and afar, (you love him for what he says) and for the dear relationship of Mme de Sévigné and her daughter.

This afternoon I was in the truck listening to this week's reading on Audible; I was so bored with the Bloch family dinner when the recording skipped from page 481 (maybe I did it accidentally) to page 502...I didn't even notice the abridgment so entranced was I by Proust's descriptions of the sea and twilight from the narrators window and his cubist view of the sea reflected in the glass book cases...oh well, next week. Back to the Blochs and dinner...

I am reading a bit ahead, with the idea of going back and rereading.. I found in a later part the use of "littérature" again in a detrimental way, meaning exaggerating. There is the verb "littératurer" which means precisely that.

le verbe « Littératurer » au sens de faire de la littérature, plutôt péjoratif ou moqueur (exemple du TLF : Flaubert afin que nous ayons nos aises pour littératurer à loisir » - Cendrars « Sartre et tous ces jeunes littérateurs littératurants »).

I will post in the appropriate Thread as we reach that section.

As readers did you already know that there really was a Mme de Sevigne who was known for her letter writing and literary salon? I certainly didn't.


"Women were the hostesses of these highly sought-after, cerebral get-togethers. These women were les Grandes Dames des Salons Parisiens, the Great Ladies of the Parisian Salons. The guest lists of these meetings were as infamous as they were celebrated including some of the greatest minds and personalities of the Enlightenment – Volatire, Molière, MADAME DE SEVIGNE, David Hume, Horace Walpole, Benjamin Franklin "http://becomingmadame.wordpress.com/2...

Mme de Sévigné corresponded with her daughter for nearly thirty years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_de...

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "As readers did you already know that there really was a Mme de Sevigne who was known for her letter writing and literary salon? I certainly didn't.


"Women were the hostesses of these highly sough..."

Yes, I have her Letters and have read a selection in the past. In Paris I lived in Rue de Sévigné, but she is a major figure in French culture.

Eugene wrote: "This afternoon I was in the truck listening to this week's reading on Audible; I was so bored with the Bloch family dinner when the recording skipped from page 481 (maybe I did it accidentally) to ..."

The best thing I got out of the Bloch dinner was:

He told us that it was a Rubens. Saint-Loup asked innocently if it was signed. M. Bloch replied, blushing, that he had had the signature cut off to make it fit the frame, but that it made no difference, as he had no intention of selling the picture.

M. Bloch is a real piece of work.

Martin wrote: "Eugene wrote: "This afternoon I was in the truck listening to this week's reading on Audible; I was so bored with the Bloch family dinner when the recording skipped from page 481 (maybe I did it ac..."

Yes, this was very funny. I agree. Proust can be cruel.

Kalliope wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "As readers did you already know that there really was a Mme de Sevigne who was known for her letter writing and literary salon? I certainly didn't.


"Women were the h..."

So Kalliope, maybe that is what was meant by being literary. Maybe Proust was poking fun at the fact that Mme de Sevigne being separated from her daughter wrote her so many letters which is why the word literary here has negative vibes. Or perhaps not poking fun but this letter writing resonated with him in some way.

How cool that you lived there!

Reem,

Yes, that is what I meant in my post #27. The translated "literary" corresponds to the "un peu de litterature", meaning that all that writing is overblowing and making too much out of her supposed despair.

And yes, it was a perfect place to live. Great memories.

Kalliope wrote: "Reem,

Yes, that is what I meant in my post #27. The translated "literary" corresponds to the "un peu de litterature", meaning that all that writing is overblowing and making too much out of her ..."

Thanks for explaining Kalliope. Since you've read her letters, don't you think they would make for a great play? Just two women taking turns reading the letters they wrote to one another, and then expressing their different reactions and emotions to the audience.

I too thought Proust's description of M. Bloch was very witty. But once again, this week, his depiction of Francoise was excellent!

ReemK10 wrote: So Kalliope, maybe that is what was meant by being literary. Maybe Proust was poking fun at the fact that Mme de Sevigne being separated from her daughter wrote her so many letters which is why the word literary here has negative vibes. Or perhaps not poking fun but this letter writing resonated with him in some way.

Proust liked the letter writing of Mme de Sévigné. What Proust does, writing in the character of Mme de Villparisis, is to disparage Mme de Sévigné and her "littérature"; this is Mme de Villparisis's point of view, not Proust's, even though he wrote it.

Proust lets Mme de Villparisis 'make a fool of herself' by stating her opinions (here on Mme de Sévigné), much like he'd let her old beau 'make a fool of himself' earlier in this volume--foolish yes--but only if you subscribe to Proust's view on Sainte-Beuve and his literary critiques.

Sainte-Beuve or not, personally I'd have loved to have been in the carriage when Mme de Villparisis spoke of Chateaubriand et al visiting her house when she was a girl, just hearing the details of their lives, as she knew it, would have been special.

Eugene wrote: "As far as "literary" goes, the ML translation is poor--there is little or no irony in the French as there is in the ML (no quotes either); what Mme de Villeparisis says in French is more directly pejorative. My translation of Proust (of what Kalliope furnished): "...adding that she saw little literature in the despair of being separated from that annoying Mme de Grignan.""

I would beg to differ with you here Eugene. The relationship between 'peu' and 'un peu' in French is precisely the same as the relationship between little and a little in English. Little is negative, barely any, and a little is positive, not much but there is some.

I speak a little French - modestly positive.

I speak little French - sorry, I can hardly make myself understood.

Same idea in French.

Eugene wrote:
"Proust liked the letter writing of Mme de Sévigné. What Proust does, writing in the character of Mme de Villparisis, is to disparage Mme de Sévigné and her "littérature"; this is Mme de Villparisis's point of view, not Proust's, even though he wrote it."

Yes, of course. It is interesting how people viewed the salonnière with her literary salons, especially in Paris! You would have liked to be in that carriage, I would have loved to be a fly on the wall of Mme de Sevigne's literary salon!!

Karen wrote after Eugene had written:My translation of Proust (of what Kalliope furnished): "...adding that she saw little literature in the despair of being separated from that annoying Mme de Grignan."

I would beg to differ with you here Eugene. The relationship between 'peu' and 'un peu' in French is precisely the same as the relationship between little and a little in English. Little is negative, barely any, and a little is positive, not much but there is some.

So how would you translate the Proust in question Karen?

Yes, one could say "a little literature" rather than "little literature" and perhaps it's better, but where does "literary" come in? Kalliope understands it as "exaggerated, pretentious, overblown", consequently ironical, but the French does not say or even suggest irony. Either way, the utterance indicates that Mme de Villeparisis does not think highly of the writing of Mme de Sévigné--that is directly stated in French and not said ironically as it is translated and possibly understood--and her corespondent is referred to as "cette ennuyeuse Mme de Grignan" as Mme de Villeparisis might say of Chateaubriand, Vigny, Musset, Balzac, etc. Sainte-Beuve, Sainte-Beuve, Sainte-Beuve...

My point is that the ML translation is inaccurate and misleading. Besides (with the exception of yours ;-) I prefer my 'attempt' at translation to Moncrieff's.

Note two weeks ago Reem complained that she had difficulty with the ML translation opposed to the translation by Lydia Davis of Vol 1.

I thought Mme de Villeparisis was saying that Mme de Sévigné was using her 'désespoir' over her daughter's absence as a pretext for 'un peu de littérature', i.e. a pretext to write a book. This cynicism fits with Mme de Villeparisis's previously stated views about other writers of the period.

Eugene wrote:
Note two weeks ago Reem complained that she had difficulty with the ML translation opposed to the translation by Lydia Davis of Vol 1.

It's true, this volume has me reading for content and totally missing out on the joy of reading Proust's sentences.Davis's translation was pure poetry!!

I have reread the extract and I still understand the "un peu de littérature" as that Mme Sévigné is exaggerating..., something like "much ado about nothing".

Later on in the book the Narrator has an expression in the context of Bloch pretending to talk like an intellectual and refers to what Bloch says as ce n'est que de la "littérature", which I interpret as "pretentious quatsch"

So he uses "littérature" in a pejorative way too...

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Eugene wrote:
Note two weeks ago Reem complained that she had difficulty with the ML translation opposed to the translation by Lydia Davis of Vol 1.

It's true, this volume has me reading for con..."

I cannot judge on the two English translators, but my feeling from the samples I have seen is that the ML is more fitting in the overall style, because it belongs to the same period, but that he has rushed through things. He translated all the volumes quite rapidly, so he has been a bit free in some of his interpretations.

Just found a volume of Mme de Sévigné's "Choix de Lettres" on one of my own bookshelves - bottom shelf, behind lots of more recent stuff.
I've had this blue hardback with a reprint date of 1970, for years, and forgotten I had it for years, but now I have found it again. It's been packed up and unpacked many times and probably never opened in all that time but now I have such a wonderful 'pretext' to break it open!

Fionnuala wrote: "Just found a volume of Mme de Sévigné's "Choix de Lettres" on one of my own bookshelves - bottom shelf, behind lots of more recent stuff.
I've had this blue hardback with a reprint date of 1970, f..."

Yes, I pulled my volume out of my shelf...but I cannot handle it right now.. so I have put it back..

I'm going to turn off my computer now and start reading some Mme de Sévigné.

Eugene wrote: "My point is that the ML translation is inaccurate and misleading. Besides (with the exception of yours ;-) I prefer my 'attempt' at translation to Moncrieff's.
"

I see your quibble as being with the word 'literary' is that it? I agree with Kal and Fionnuala: from the context of what follows, M. de Charlus protesting that he sees nothing but truth in Mme de Sévigné's outpourings, that Mme Villeparisis is disparaging Mme de Sévigné's work. However Mme V. is not criticising their literary merit, this is not a judgement of aesthetics, this is her saying that Mme de S. saw an opportunity to wax lyrical, to turn life into art, to make it into an artifice. And M. de Charlus protests that it seems truthful to him, an expression of genuine feeling.