The Year of Reading Proust discussion

This thread is for the discussion that will take place through Sunday, 10 Mar. of Within a Budding Grove, to page 167 (to the paragraph beginning: “Meanwhile we had taken our places at table...”)

To get in the mood for the return to the Champs-Élysées I've been flipping through the snapshots of the modern-day site at Panoramio. It helps, especially when my first association with the name tends to be that of the busy cobblestoned avenue itself, particularly when clogged with professional bicyclists. I didn't know that our author has his own "Allée" there now.

Great idea, Richard!

I'm part of the way through this section, and I love two ways that Proust describes the social dynamics of visiting, at homes, etc. One is the description of pollination re. someone visiting and then carrying to other houses positive reports to other friends of higher social status. The other is the image of a kaleidoscope turning as some groups fall into favor and others out of favor according to other events of the time -- for example, Jews falling out of favor during the Dreyfus affair.

I'm trying -- I've been reading it off and on since Friday.

And now we have social nosegays, too: "But Swann was not content with seeking in society, and fastening on the names which the past has inscribed on its roll and which are still to be read there, a simple artistic and literary pleasure; he indulged in the slightly vulgar diversion of arranging as it were social nosegays by grouping heterogeneous elements, by bringing together people taken at random here, there and everywhere."

This part is easier going, Proustitute. The attention focuses more closely on Narrator's obsession with Gilberte and a character from the Swann in Love section makes a reappearance.

Kris wrote: "Great idea, Richard!

I'm part of the way through this section, and I love two ways that Proust describes the social dynamics of visiting, at homes, etc. One is the description of pollination re. s..."

Yes, I also loved the kaleidoscope image.. always the same pieces but shifting in the way they relate to each other.

I enjoyed the passage with the princesse Mathilde.

The wiki is good.

English version:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathilde...

French version is longer:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathilde...

a caricature from the French page:



But the Winterhalter (the portraitist mentioned by the Narrator) portrait:

I'm intrigued by the narrator's reaction to the damp smell of the public toilets at the Champs-Élysée and his connecting it with his grand-uncle Adolphe's garden-level room at Combray. What is he telling us here? And in the same paragraph, he casually recounts how he enjoyed a little moment of pleasure while rough and tumbling with Gilberte. It's all so frank.

Fionnuala wrote: "I'm intrigued by the narrator's reaction to the damp smell of the public toilets at the Champs-Élysée and his connecting it with his grand-uncle Adolphe's garden-level room at Combray. What is he t..."

Yes, very true. I do not recall he mentioned the smell of dampness of uncle Adolphe's room in the Combray section.

I love the quote:

"...en leur ouvrant la porte hypogéenne de ces cubes de pierre où les hommes sont accroupis comme des sphinx."

Kalliope wrote: "'..I do not recall he mentioned the smell of dampness..."

He didn't exactly use the word dampness, he said the room "dégageait.... cette odeur obscure et fraîche, à la fois forestière et ancien régime..." I took it to mean a mustiness, which is a kind of damp, isn't it?

Yes, the hypogeenne doors and the sphinx-like crouching men..I wonder what that translated as...I

Kris wrote: "Great idea, Richard!

I'm part of the way through this section, and I love two ways that Proust describes the social dynamics of visiting, at homes, etc. One is the description of pollination re. s..."

I really liked the kaleidoscope analogy to describe the changing patterns in the social dynamics, too.

Proustitute wrote: "Wow, you guys are already up to next week's reading? I am so behind!"

I'm not even sure where I am in respect to the schedule. It seems that my pagination is different. I am reading the Montcieff version.

I like the use of the word "nosegay" also, and I enjoyed the expression "Go tell the Spartans", in reference to Mme Cottard's presence in Odette's salon. I was curious as to the origin of the phrase, and I found out that it stems from the epitaph engraved on a commemorative stone on top of the burial ground of the Spartans who fell at Thermopylae. I may start using the expression myself, like "I read the first hundred pages of Within a Buddig Grove. Go tell the Spartans."

Proust uses the word 'ninivite' to describe the chocolate cake at Gilberte's house. My book has no notes about it but I'm guessing the word comes from the ancient Assyrian city of Nineveh which was eventually sacked and completely destroyed by a hoard of ennemies just as the cake is by Gilberte and her guests. I love that every word Proust chooses has such interesting significance. I googled the word 'ninivite' too and it referred me to a wiki page on Proust and claimed the word meant 'shell'. I don't find that to be so apt although I have been thinking that the entire work is like one of those spiral shells into which we are being drawn little by little, and where we feel we are sometimes retracing the same steps as earlier. Gilberte sounds so like Odette with her ready-made phrases that I think I'm back in Un amour de Swann.

Fionnuala, I agree that it means inhabitant of Niniveh, but I couldn't find reference to shell, "Ninivite is a silica rich rock." How odd.

I think you have the right of it, though, the pillaging of the cake equalling the sacking of the city.

Scribble wrote: "Fionnuala, I agree that it means inhabitant of Niniveh, but I couldn't find reference to shell, "Ninivite is a silica rich rock." How odd.

I think you have the right of it, though, the pillaging ..."

I also agree that you got the right take... The section, apart from mentioning Darius, is full of terms such as: Temple oriental, remparts, pentes, bastions, monument, and also the very explicit "temple architectural".

Kalliope wrote: "Scribble wrote: "Fionnuala, I agree that it means inhabitant of Niniveh,
I think you have the right of it, thoug..."

To add a bit of extra color and drama to the already colorful and oriental aspect of the chocolate cake, here is Delacroix's version of one of the scenes of the assault on Nineveh:

That's a very...decadent-looking...version of assault, Kalliope!

Ah, yes, the 'pan verni et cloisonné de fruits écarlates, dans le goût oriental'.
Thanks, Kalliope. This is so fitting.

Scribble, this Nineveh theme is so apt though, isn't it? Eating cake with Gilberte was such a sensual experience for the narrator.

Fionnuala wrote: "Proust uses the word 'ninivite' to describe the chocolate cake at Gilberte's house. My book has no notes about it but I'm guessing the word comes from the ancient Assyrian city of Nineveh which was..."

But I like the image of spiral shells and going back and revisiting some periods on a slightly different level.

Fionnuala wrote: "Ah, yes, the 'pan verni et cloisonné de fruits écarlates, dans le goût oriental'.
Thanks, Kalliope. This is so fitting.

Scribble, this Nineveh theme is so apt though, isn't it? Eating cake with Gi..."

Oh yes, very! That painting captures that sense exquisitely - very evocative - as does your little snippet. Beautifully matched.

Great reading so far this week.

I enjoyed the narrative on the visit from Cottard... going through the full list of maladies, conditions, remedies, etc... ending so cleverly with:

"And we realised that this imbecile was a great physician."

Martin wrote: "Great reading so far this week.

"And we realise..."

Yes, that made me laugh... also the episode with the Mme Blatin and the Cynghalais..."Moi négro, mais toi chameau..!"

Proust is also very funny reading.

Scribble wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Ah, yes, the 'pan verni et cloisonné de fruits écarlates"
..That painting captures that sense exquisitely...."

Proust had to have had this Delacroix painting in mind when he wrote that.
I'm more and more amazed at the things we uncover together in this Proust Institute which Proustitute has founded. So glad I'm studying here...

Martin wrote: "Great reading so far this week.

I enjoyed the narrative on the visit from Cottard... going through the full list of maladies, conditions, remedies, etc... ending so cleverly with:

"And we realise..."

I also thought that was very funny. While I don't think this is a laugh a minute there are several lines that make me read them out loud and laugh. Like in the past section he compares an awkward moment he has with Marquis de Norpois to talking to a stranger who suddenly says "What a pity I haven't got my revolver with me; I could have picked off the lot of them."

If anyone is interested in the paintings of Gérôme, mentioned by Odette, --when she is sort of complaining that out of 45 visitors, 42 have been discussing Gérôme's painting...!--, there was this wonderful exhibit at the Thyssen-Bornemisza, on his works.

http://www.museothyssen.org/microsite...

Many people dislike his paintings, but I love them and Hollywood did too.. His paintings dealing with ancient Rome were a great source of inspiration for some major movie productions (chapter 4 in this microsite).

Her first letter to the Narrator:

So far as concerns this letter, at the foot of which Françoise declined to recognise Gilberte’s name, because the elaborate capital ‘G’ leaning against the undotted ‘i’ looked more like an ‘A,’ -- (ML translation)

So then "Alberte?" This has to be foreshadowing for Albertine, right?

Richard wrote: "Her first letter to the Narrator:

So far as concerns this letter, at the foot of which Françoise declined to recognise Gilberte’s name, because the elaborate capital ‘G’ leaning against the undott..."

Very good point, Richard!

Wow, Richard!

Phillida wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Proust uses the word 'ninivite' to describe the chocolate cake at Gilberte's house. My book has no notes about it but I'm guessing the word comes from the ancient..."

Yes, that is what Fionnuala was suggesting in post 16 above, it would refer to an architectural shape as would have been found in the old Assyrian city of Nineveh. There are other references to the oriental aspect of the cake in the extract. Whether it looked as a ziggurat or any other alternative shape I should think that is up to each person's imagination.

Ziggurat, of course! A stepped construction with a tower on top. But the act of attacking its walls, that 'pan vernis' which Gilberte cut out for the narrator, must also refer to the sacking of Nineveh. How far Proust went with his allusions and metaphors...

Fionnuala wrote,
"I'm more and more amazed at the things we uncover together in this Proust Institute which Proustitute has founded. So glad I'm studying here... "
Thank you for expressing my thoughts also! My sabbatical year from current politics.

And Richard...I always think about another passage, but now I have your idea to reflect upon. Bravo!

I feel I am on a scavenger/treasure hunt when reading Proust, as the comments above prove. Marcel was right, I would rather be reading great literature than.....

I am also escaping my poor country´s politics through this wonderful novel.

Watch out there may be [spoilers]

This is what I have discovered so far in the "budding grove"and its recurring themes:

This is a story of young love in all its kinds both straight and gay,always passionate,romantic and very Tchaicovskeana(!).

It is also a magnificent chronicle of the haute bourgeoisie at the end of the XIX cent,and the beginning of the XX cent.-i´ve always had trouble spelling bourgeoisie-

Time, in itself the philosophical subject of those years (Bergson´s durée) whether chronological or otherwise,mostly otherwise, is ever present

It is also a handbook of etiquette that I feel the author might be taking quite seriously.Any of us could be dropped any moment in Combray and never make a faux pas

In the "budding grove" we find Proust´s ars poetica developed across several pages where he describes why an artist is not understood in his present time,how art should be new i,e, not using *commonplaces*etc.

Proust has a very sharp tongue in his description of people and at times he is truly funny, something I never expected.

O.K.this is what I have found out on which I could comment and discuss.

I´ve just read what I wrote and it feels likethe Monty Python´s link I read in this group :) .
Well, I was putting some order in my thoughts.ISOLT is so rich!

Patricia wrote: "...we find Proust´s ars poetica developed across several pages where he describes why an artist is not understood in his present time,how art should be new i,e, not using *commonplaces*etc.
:..."

The notes in my edition say that the passages about Vinteuil's Sonata and Beethoven's more difficult quartets was not in the original manuscript but added later. It looks like Proust began to realise that his own work, if not being misunderstood completely by his contemporaries, was at least being perceived as difficult.
I was intrigued by the Narrator's and Swann's very different reactions to the Sonata. We were told in 'Un Amour de Swann', that when he heard it for the first time, Swann was very struck by it, and particularly by the 'petite phrase' whereas the Narrator has the opposite reaction and it is only after hearing it many times, and having grown tired of the parts which dominated at first, that he finally hears the beauty of the 'petite phrase'.

Another thought: if we found Swann's motivations during his original affair with Odette to be complicated, what are we to make of the present convoluted workings of his heart?

Patricia wrote: "I´ve just read what I wrote and it feels likethe Monty Python´s link I read in this group :) .
Well, I was putting some order in my thoughts.ISOLT is so rich!"

"Proust in his first book, he wrote about/ Proust in his first book wrote about/ wrote about/ Proust in his first book..."

Python nailed it through their irreverent humor. This is impossible to summarize in a short time. Best to dive in and let the swirling wonders of Proust's narrative pull you in.

I find myself not wanting to stop at the designated place this week!

I agree with Patricia that the most surprising element is the sense of humor with which Proust describes the characters. Like Martin, I keep diving in and started the second part of Withing a Budding Grove. I am fascinated by the way Proust describes time and memories, their formation and distortion.

Now, we're at the tea party! And again I ask: does anyone have any thoughts on the sudden 180 of Swann and Odette? When the Narrator is playing with Gilberte on the Champs-Élysées, it is totally clear that Swann knows who he is...and Gilberte tells the Narrator (who is as smitten with M. & Mme. Swann as he is with Gilberte), "You know, they can't bear you!" But the next thing we know, he's going to tea at her house, and her parents seem to like him a lot. I can find nothing in the text to account for this; which is why I'm asking: any thoughts/imaginings/fantasies re this?
Also: Proust's humor. The tea parties have one of his funniest lines ever; "She even asked me at what o'clock my parents dined, as if I still remembered."

I have been a bit puzzled also. I was wondering if it was not just Gilberte's opinion while the Swanns on the contrary thought he would be a good influence on their daughter, which seems corroborated later on. I am not sure though, and I too kept thinking I had missed something.

The "good influence" was actually a pattern in Proust's own life; he was so obviously brilliant that people wanted him to hang out with their children.
And you might have something...Gilberte is nothing if not a tease!

Richard wrote: "Her first letter to the Narrator:

So far as concerns this letter, at the foot of which Françoise declined to recognise Gilberte’s name, because the elaborate capital ‘G’ leaning against the undott..."

fascinating this and if you add the next phrase "while the final syllable was indefinitely prolonged by a waving flourish" you get even closer to Albertine

there is so much to be fascinated by in this week's reading, I don't know where to focus my contribution - the Swann's "benevolent Eunemid" concierge and the significance so far of wasps and bees (weren't bees "botanising" in Swann's Way?) OR Gilberte's hair OR the musty smell that gave the Narrator a pleasure that he "could lean on for support" etc etc. For the sheer beauty of the imagery I choose Gilberte's plaits whose "grain" was "at once natural and supernatural", a work of art composed of "the very grass of Paradise". Then the killer finale: "To a section of them, however infinitesimal, what celestial herbarium would I not have given as a reliquary". Knockout. A huge heavenly glass atrium as home solely to a tiny lock of her fine grained grass-of-Paradise hair.

Marcus wrote: "For the sheer beauty of the imagery I choose Gilberte's plaits"

Thank you for reminding me - this passage is well worth adding as a Goodreads quote.

FINONNULA, I think that the *present convoluted workings of his heart" are exactly those of a young lover. Nowadays instead of waiting anxiously and running to the door to see if the mailman was bringing a letter from Gilberte Marcel would be checking his cell phone every two minutes.
I don´t doubt Proust must have known -even before he published it- that his novel was misunderstood. He is not understood even to this day.You should listen to some of
the comments some people make when I tell then I´m reading P!
MARTIN,I have to stop and clear my head because Iam swept away by P and I need to use my Reason as I am almost 3/4 into the "budding grove"-such a delightful image-
ELIZABETH,I´m sure Gilberte says her parents can´t stan Marcel because she is jealous and of cours she is a tease but she won´t share him.
JOCELYNE,P´s metaphors are very funny,like when he describes his reaction to being introduced to Bergotte like a magician emerging from the dust from a shot, all dressed up and holding a dove and I imagine him saying with flourish and splendid smile,"Voilá!"

.

I wonder what the English translation does with Odette's rather precious use of Anglicisms? Her 'at homes' coincide with Gilberte's teas, and she pops in to find them demolishing the palace of Darius:
"Tiens, ca a l'air bon ce que vous mangez là, cela me donne du faim de vous voir manger du cake."

And then Odette eulogizes "notre vieille 'nurse'";the narrator knows no English, but it begins to dawn on him that she means Francoise.

And Francoise is the key to Odette and Swann's change of heart towards the narrator. In a double remove, it's what Gilberte has told them about what the narrator has told her about Francoise's devotion to him that makes them feel 'sympathie' with him, the narrator(!)
How much of this is only hearsay of hearsay of hearsay!

By George, I think you've got it!!! And to think he'd been ashamed of Fran&cdediloise, and longed for a governess with a blue feather in her hat!

Well, shoot; I tried to put in the cedilla, to no avail. Oh, well....

Elizabeth wrote: "Well, shoot; I tried to put in the cedilla, to no avail. Oh, well...."

You wrote cdedil instead of ccedil

Also, please be sure to finish it off with a semicolon.

Oh and 'Christmas' instead of Noel.