The Year of Reading Proust discussion

This thread is for the discussion that will take place through Sunday, Mar. 3 of Within a Budding Grove, to page 83 (to the paragraph beginning: “I continued to go along the Champs-Elysées on fine days...”)

Wow, you're even doing the book cover associations. You are a remarkable woman, Ms. Rabberman.

I used the ISBN bc the correct edition was not coming up, and it was annoying me. :)

We are two peas in a pod.

Jason wrote: "We are two peas in a pod."

I always suspected that. :)

So I have a question. I have an older CK Scott Moncrieff & Kilmartin translation of Within a Budding Grove but I also picked up the new Viking James Grieve translation a while back.

Did I hear that the Grieve translation is no good? The group is shifting over to the Moncrieff?

I posted this in the previous weeks thread, but my Editions Thélème audio version has the same reader who did the Noms de pays section in Du côté continue this second volume, and gives a strange continuity.

Well, I am glad I reread and written my review on Phèdre recently Phèdre, and it seems that my opinion on how it should be acted is more in agreement with La Berma's and M. de Norpois's than to the Narrator's (... ce fut seulement quand elle fut arrivée au dernier vers que mon esprit prit conscience de la monotonie voulue qu'elle avait imposé aux premiers..)

and earlier "..elle passa au rabot d'une mélopée uniforme toute la tirade où se trouvent confondues ...."

And Barthes also writes about this two ways of interpreting, lyrical or dramatic, in his Sur Racine. Barthes prefers the lyrical too.

And on Vatel, the cook to whom Françoise is compared, and who committed suicide after the visit by Louis XIV at the Vaux-le-Vicomte castle...

There is this wonderful wonderful movie on Vatel by Roland Joffé:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190861/?...

Jonathan wrote: "Could you expand on the lyrical v dramatic a bit? I ask because it seems like you are drawing from a well much deeper than mine, and I didn't have as clear a picture in my mind of what the narrator..."

Jonathan, I discuss this a bit in the review I wrote of Phèdre my review of Phèdre

Racine's plays do not have a lot of action, and it usually takes place outside the stage. What we see is the main characters reacting to tragic events that are reported to them.

Some people think (I am included -- the way I was brought up on Racine) that it should be declaimed and others that it should be acted.

Barthes short essay on this is very good. The title already indicates his opinion: "Dire Racine".

Phèdre is famous for her three long speeches. She avows her love for her stepson (Hyppolite) first to her servant, then to Hyppolite himself (the one mentioned in this section of the novel) and finally to her husband Thesée. These speeches are meant to be declaimed without moving much and with the monotonous and uniform voice that Norpois mentions, and that is one of the reasons why they are so difficult. They are supposed to get the audience into a trance.

We will see whether the Narrator changes his opinion. Phèdre was Proust's favorite Racine play.

So disappointed by the change in Swann. :(

Kalliope wrote: there is this wonderful wonderful movie by Roland Joffé:

What an interesting cast.

J.A. wrote: "So disappointed by the change in Swann. :(

Kalliope wrote: there is this wonderful wonderful movie by Roland Joffé:

What an interesting cast."

Oh, it is a wonderful movie...

Yes, the change in Swann is very strange.. but now we know why he married her, and that he did so after the daughter was born, and that yes, may be she had been pregnant when the Narrator notices that she has put on a bit of weight.. Was Gilberte already there when she set off on her cruises then?

I laughed when I opened Volume II and the first thing I saw, after weeks of trying to decipher the blank page of Odette, "Part 1 Madame Swann at Home". It speaks to me of a woman quite ensconced and in charge. Now we do know why Swann married her...and also that Odette was quite intent on orchestrating the marriage...in fact frustrated that it took Swann so long to come around. Even as we were reading of his insane obsessive "love".

Kalliope, thank you for the info on "Phedre"...and your suggestion of the film "Vatel"

I am reading the visit by M. de Norpois and trying to make sense of the long paragraph about politics, King Theodosius II and Bismarck and the "King" (which king?). Is this something that is supposed to be intelligible to a reader of the time, or is Proust writing gobbledegook deliberately? My ebook does not come with notes, so I'm at a loss.

I'm just getting to the gossip about Mme. Swann where I expect to be on firmer footing.

Rich

Cheryl wrote: "I laughed when I opened Volume II and the first thing I saw, after week's of trying to decipher the blank page of Odette, "Part 1 Madame Swann at Home". It speaks to me of a woman quite ensconced a..."

Excellent comment Cheryl. I was surprised by turn where Odette started pushing the idea of marriage and your comment makes me wonder at what point that happened in relation to Volume I and we had no idea what was going through her mind the entire time other than a couple sentences that implied she thought Swann was a bit foolish looking. And to Kalliope's point of when she had the child though I feel if she had it during the time frame of Volume I that it would have been mentioned.

This goes against my ability to read critically that I read the title of part 1 for some reason I was thinking of the Narrator's mother rather than Odette.

Marquis de Nupois....that man can talk!

The opening dinner sequence in "Within a Budding Grove" is writing at its most masterly...picking up where "Swann's Way" left off and capturing Marcel in a new epoch of adolescence: dreamy, unsure, still hosting the same old obsessions and trying to act on them.

The main idea of this segment, I feel, is the difference between appearances and reality, the name and its associations contrasted to the complexity of the place.

Marcel has an entire world of certainty and conception built up in his mind, symbolized by the entire imbroglio about the Phedre performance (and the line about the women's seating is one of the funniest I've ever read) but is beginning to learn that he both cannot take things at face value and that so often the reality will undercut his expectations. In contrast, there is the Marquis de Nupois, a man who seems to create reality around him in his calm certainty, and Swann and Odette, who have learned to manage their expectations and thus become much happier in the process.

Paris street life at 1900...

http://bit.ly/15MTAHw

The Great Inversion, Alan Ehrenhalt 2012

Because I got to have pictures...

Cabourg, France, the model for Proust's Balbec.

@Richard: the (French) version I'm reading has some more or less helpful notes - sometimes the problem is that they naturally assume a French reader, so maybe I miss some cultural references - but anyway, I can maybe at least give you what they say.

When the marquis de Norpois is introduced at the beginning, after all that astonishing information about Swann and Cottard, the note tells you a bit about the constitutional crisis of the 16 May - Wiki is pretty good there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_May_1...
and then points out that the fact that Norpois enjoyed an important position both before and after the crisis is a measure either of his talent, or his opportunism.

(Personally, I find Norpois a bit of a stuffed shirt, so I know which I think)

Then here's my translation of the note about Théodose:

The visit of Nicholas II to France, which inspires Proust to the account of the imaginary Théodose, and which took place in the autumn of 1896, confirmed the Franco-Russian alliance that was settled in 1891 Then there's a bit about the source of info about toasts and speeches made.

I have to admit that I'm quite stymied by the reference to the king who whispers to Vaugoubert while His Majesty is having a bit of an audience, because I'm not sure if the king and His Majesty are two different people, or one and the same. Logically, they must be the same person. They must be.

Bismarck resigned in 1890, at the insistence of Wilhelm II. According to the notes, the telegram that the narrator's father asks Norpois about is ('no doubt') the one that the Emperor sent to his ex-Chancellor in 1895 on the occasion of Bismarck's 80th birthday, in which he expressed his outrage at the disgrace into which ole Bismarck had fallen.

This all strikes me as macabre, considering that this is the 'diplomacy' and the alliances and the jockeying for position that led to WW1, and we see this pompous stuffed shirt is one of the power-brokers. It reminds me of The Remains of the Day where you see the butler's unstinting loyalty to his aristocratic, amateurish, bumbling master who was busy making a fool of himself with Ribbentrop.

Karen wrote: "@Richard: the (French) version I'm reading has some more or less helpful notes - sometimes the problem is that they naturally assume a French reader, so maybe I miss some cultural references - but ..."

Karen, thank you very much for all these comments on the historical context.. My Folio-Gallimard has no notes.. They help a lot.

I take it that the King and His Majesty, are the same person, Théodose.

As for the financial advice that Norpois gives to the Narrator's father, to invest the inheritance from tante Léonie in 4% Russia...in the late 90s...!!!.... ouf... that looks a bit shaky... his "vous êtes du moins assuré de ne jamais voir fléchir le capital"... ominous...

Thanks for the notes. For a while, I was imagining that Theodosius was talking to Napoleon III somehow but then the timing with Bismarck's chancellorship didn't seem right.

At least I was able to figure the Berma ~ Sarah Bernhardt connection.

It's fascinating to read European novels set in the years before WWI (and the Russian Revolution) to see how much that changed everyone's perceptions around the continent. While that is not the main focus here, you get these little glimpses about the way things used to be.

Berma
Although Sarah Bernhardt had many posters created for her performances, there wasn't a specific one made for "Phèdre."
This is the only print I was able to discover.
"A la Renaissance: Sarah Bernhardt dans 'Phèdre'" by Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec.

It shows, " Sarah Bernhardt as Phaedra, staring to left in horror and grasping the arm of the figure beside her; 1893.
Crayon, brush and spatter lithograph, printed on imitation japan paper."

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research...

From a 2009 blog by Earl, "In Search of Time Tasted."
"The cold beef with carrots now made its appearance, laid out by the Michelangelo of our kitchen on great crystals of aspic that looked like blocks of transparent quartz." MP
Source: insearchoftimetasted.blogspot.com Earl's 2009 blog, "In Search of Time Tasted"
Dinner with Norpois (V): Beef Stroganoff
"'I would be interested to see how your Vatel would acquit himself of quite a different dish—beef Stroganoff, for example.'" MP
http://insearchoftimetasted.blogspot....

Richard wrote: "Thanks for the notes. For a while, I was imagining that Theodosius was talking to Napoleon III somehow but then the timing with Bismarck's chancellorship didn't seem right.

At least I was able to ..."

I would agree with this Richard. I think it is just as fun to catch the historical perspective of it all. And while Proust just seems to throw in some tidbits there is something real of a puzzle piece to be able to fit in with other works of the era.

There are several photographs of her as Phèdre. I posted one in my review. There is another one:

Lovely photo! Thanks, Kalliope.

Richard wrote: "It's fascinating to read European novels set in the years before WWI (and the Russian Revolution) to see how much that changed everyone's perceptions around the continent. ..."


Richard, if you are interested in this, I recommend Miklos Banffy's trilogy (They Were Counted, They Were Divided... )

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/co...

Thank you for the recommendation, Kalliope! Though I do think if I finish this heptalogy it will be a while before I want to plunge back into this period.

Richard wrote: "Thank you for the recommendation, Kalliope! Though I do think if I finish this heptalogy it will be a while before I want to plunge back into this period."

Yes.. I am putting so much reading material in the freezer for the same reason...!!!

I love the notion that every phrase we utter, every move or even a subtle near movement can impact our lives. How many times I uttered a phrase and then realized that didn't really represent my thoughts and to see the look of response in our interlocutor. And it never seems right to try to take back what we said based on only a look because we are not quite sure if that look means what we think it did. Just one of Proust's clever observations of human nature. Though it has been said numerous times that Proust has this ability, it just reminded me that it is one of my favorite qualities of an author, one which I have Steinbeck on the highest pedestal.

The Kindle app on my iPhone tells me that "23 other people highlighted this part of the book" on page 58 of this week's reading of Within A Budding Grove, ML.

"The laborious process of causation which sooner or later will bring about every possible effect, including, consequently, those which one had believed to be least possible, naturally slow at times, is rendered slower still by our desire (which in seeking to accelerate only obstructs it), by our very existence, and comes to fruition only when we have ceased to desire, and sometimes ceased to live."

Here, a 3rd person narrator (Proust or someone who knows Swann's outcome) takes the narration from M. de Norpois, who was talking of Swann's marriage to Odette at the Narrator's family dinner, to elaborate on Swann, Odette, etc.

Eugene wrote: "The Kindle app on my iPhone tells me that "23 other people highlighted this part of the book" on page 58 of this week's reading of Within A Budding Grove, ML.

"The laborious process of causation ..."

Eugene, I think many people highlighted these lines because the words speak to them on a personal level, and here again you have the beauty of Proust's words as a soothing balm on our wounds.

Kalliope wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Could you expand on the lyrical v dramatic a bit? I ask because it seems like you are drawing from a well much deeper than mine, and I didn't have as clear a picture in my mind of ..."

your review was very helpful, Kalliope, when my reading schedule isn't so chock-a-block you have inspired me to read some French drama.

I found the theatre scene very powerful, the way Proust describes expectation and that strong desire to be pleased and not to know disappointment.
And personally I could relate to that sense of not wanting to leave the theatre at the end of the play, the wish to hold onto the moment and how strange it can be to step back into normal life after experiencing something that touches the soul.

Karen wrote: "@Richard: the (French) version I'm reading has some more or less helpful notes - sometimes the problem is that they naturally assume a French reader, so maybe I miss some cultural references - but ..."
Thank You!
I was having the same problem as Richard and for the same reason (no notes).

Eugene wrote: "The Kindle app on my iPhone tells me that "23 other people highlighted this part..."

ReemK10 wrote: "...many people highlighted these lines because the words speak to them on a personal level..."

Yes they do Reem but I was shocked that Amazon knew what "23 other people" knew who perhaps had "words speak to them on a personal level". It's a new day.

One thing that interests me about Proust's sentence on desire,

"The laborious process of causation which sooner or later will bring about every possible effect, including, consequently, those which one had believed to be least possible, naturally slow at times, is rendered slower still by our desire (which in seeking to accelerate only obstructs it), by our very existence, and comes to fruition only when we have ceased to desire, and sometimes ceased to live." ML

is how Zen Buddhist it is. Even though Proust read Emerson and probably read about American Transcendentalism (which is a meld of German
Idealism [which he knew], Buddhism/'Hindooism' and other mysticisms of the time) that ran through Massachusetts in the 1850's never has he mentioned Buddhism, as far as I know.

I like Buddhist conundrums and one that parallels the Proust quote is to become enlightened the last thing you must give up is the desire for enlightenment.

The primary reason the ""The laborious process of causation..." interests me is Proust's style.

The sentence is a compound structure--writing this I can feel the eyes of my high school English teachers on me. Oh well, the 1st verb is "is rendered" while most of what comes before it is the subject or pertains to it; what follows is the object/complement until the conjunction links the 2nd predicate, "comes".

Why I wish I could better read Proust's hand writing is I would like to know how he constructed the sentence (or any number of them), what versions and what words came before, what did he cross out and what did he add. I'll try reading his script again at the Morgan tomorrow.

The sentence that follows this one interests me more; maybe on Sunday if I have time, maybe after I go to the French, as there is an ambiguity in a relative pronoun that may exist only in the translation, I can talk about what it means or might mean to me.

What I suspect, being an amature, is that the complex psychological portraits that Proust is championed for are due to his style, his syntax, particularly his parentheticals.

Eugene wrote: "The primary reason the ""The laborious process of causation..." interests me is Proust's style.

The sentence is a compound structure--writing this I can feel the eyes of my high school English te..."

At the Morgan, please look again at what he might have written in the first sentence, and also what the Exhibit says about Swanns's last sentence in the Amour de Swann section.

Thank you. You are our eyes.

Kalliope wrote: "At the Morgan, please look again at what he might have written in the first sentence, and also what the Exhibit says about Swanns's last sentence in the Amour de Swann section."

I plan to.

Thanks for sharing that Proustitute... my TBR pile (and active reading pile) just keeps getting higher.... and I love it!

Great reading this week. I have some stuff marked, but don't have the text with me at the moment... more to come

Eugene wrote: "Eugene wrote: "to become enlightened the last thing you must give up is the desire for enlightenment."


Eugene, I just want to say I enjoy your insights and to thank you for bringing up and introducing the I-Ching to me ( you had mentioned it in an earlier posting). An hour or so ago, I came across the I-Ching in another book that I'm reading, looked it up, tossed some virtual coins and am currently trying to decipher and make sense of a rather uncanny reading. Actually it is the photo that has caught me off hook. I will play around with it in my head until I move on to another idea. Ty :)

ReemK10 wrote: "An hour or so ago, I came across the I-Ching in another book that I'm reading, looked it up, tossed some virtual coins..."

Cool, they say the I Ching is the oldest book in the world.

Just finished this week's reading. I like that we now have a more reliable chronology (although you never know with Proust), via the visit of the Russian tsar to Paris (Proust's Théodose) in late 1895, and the telegram which Wilhelm II sent to Kruger, on the 1st of January 1896 and which the narrator's father mentions and Norpois castigates as being a terrible mistake (it nearly caused a war between Germany and England). I get the feeling too that Proust is much more comfortable recreating the events of this period, a time when he himself was an adult of 25, (even though the narrator is only 15 or so) than he was with the historical events of the Swann section in the first book, a time when he himself was only a child. The many real life literary figures he mentions in this section, with marvellous insight, were current around 1895/6 and this adds to our sense that the chronology is now less elastic. The literary references are particularly interesting because of the way he sets Norpois up as an expert on everything, literature included, and then little by little dismantles his reputation in our eyes. The clichés he has him spout are hilarious and his remarks about Bergotte are amusing too - Norpois criticises Bergotte for more or less the same 'faults' as Proust himself was critised for, the style versus content argument, and he also attacks the morality of Bergotte's private life, a criticism Proust also suffered from.
I enjoyed how the narrator found esthetic value even in the brochures from the bank and echoes of an orchestra in the way Norpois remains so still while listening and then jumps into action when it is his turn to speak.
The description of Swann's married life and his apparent 'new mode of behaviour' was very moving. We see how he is determined to launch his wife and daughter into society, how keen, how desperate he is to prove that they are invited frequently and by whom, even if the people concerned are professional people rather than aristocrats, men rather than women. Swann reminded me of Leopoldo Bloom in the first book. This new version of him is even more like Bloom; loyal and loving and proud of a wife who he knows, and everyone else knows too, is unfaithful..

So glad to see you back on the discussion threads Fionnuala....!!!!

I agree with you in that a great deal of the criticism of Bergotte could have been made on Proust himself but I kept seeing in him Anatole France, who is again mentioned with no real reason.

Proust grew up admiring Frances's writing but eventually got tired of him. I would have to check dates but I think that by 1918-19 that was already the case.

Kalliope wrote: ".but I kept seeing in him Anatole France, who is again mentioned with no real reason. ."

I agree, Kalliope that Bergotte is mostly modeled on Anatole France.

The Théodose section reminded me of André Makine's book, the part when the grandmother was a young girl in Paris and saw the Tsar. It has the same atmosphere.

Kalliope, when the narrator mentions A F as an example of an exceptional individual, the notes in the Milly edition say Proust hesitated here between A F and Bergotte. Milly goes on to say:
"Certes A F n'est pas le seul modèle du personnage de Bergotte mais celui-ci a hérité de la douce musicalité de son style comme en témoigne une note de Proust dans un des Cahiers: 'Penser à dire de France ...que ses discours étaient alors plus fondus dans la trame du style; s'en détachaient moins, étaient moins apparents comme discours... c'était d'une douceur à nous faire comprendre ce que les anciens voulaient dire quand ils parlaient de la douceur de tel écrivain... Alors chez France par moments le language devenait musical, on entendait un accompagnement...de harpes' "

By the way, your explanations re Phèdre earlier in the thread are really useful. I must go back and reread your review.

Milly's footnotes have some really interesting little titbits: on the subject of Tantle Léonie's bequest, he mentions an original paragraph by Proust, removed from the final version, which said that Tante Léonie left Françoise some shares in the Panama canal. The shares subsequently lost their value completely, and it was at that point that the narrator's mother invited Françoise to work for them in Paris.

Fionnuala wrote: "Milly's footnotes have some really interesting little titbits: on the subject of Tantle Léonie's bequest, he mentions an original paragraph by Proust, removed from the final version, which said tha..."

Fascinating on the Panama shares. There is a wonderful book on the Panama fiasco in France: The Path Between the Seas: The Creation of the Panama Canal, 1870-1914.

I am waiting to read more to what happens to the 4% Russian bonds that Norpois has recommended to the Narrator's father...!!!

Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope, when the narrator mentions A F as an example of an exceptional individual, the notes in the Milly edition say Proust hesitated here between A F and Bergotte. Milly goes on to say:
"Certe..."

When I was growing up my father used to tell us how Anatole France had translated into French some works by the Spanish writer Vicente Blasco Ibañez, and how these translations were the perfect combination of a very stylized language, from someone whose novels were a bit weak on plot, with the plot from a writer who was good as story teller but a bit weak on language. I have searched but have not found these translations.

He would also tells us that Russian books had to be read in French, because of the connection between the two countries and which comes up so beautifully in Makine's book (which I want to reread).

On the Parisian restaurants mentioned:

Henri - place Gaillon

http://books.google.es/books?id=TDAd1...

Taverne Weber - rue Royale

http://books.google.es/books?id=hEA0B...

And wiki is very good on Café Anglais

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Café_Ang...