The Year of Reading Proust discussion

This thread is for the discussion that will take place through Sunday, 23 June of The Guermantes Way, to page 728 (to the paragraph beginning: “There was at Combray a Rue de Saintrailles...”)

Most of the paintings in mentioned in this section are in the Karpeles book, but when the conversation is about the "monde féerique" of Isabella d'Este, the narrator says:

...en étudiant Isabella d'Este, en la transplantant patiemment de ce monde féerique dans celui de l'histoire, constaté que sa vie, sa pensée, ne contenaient rien de cette étrangeté mystérieuse que nous avait suggérée son nom, ... nous savons un gré infini à cette princesse d'avoir eu, de la peinture de Mantegna, des connaissances presque égales à celles, jusque-l'à méprisées par nous et mises..."plus bas que terre" de M. Lafenestre

Here is on the exhibition (ironically from the Louvre) of Isabella's patronage of Mantegna:

http://mini-site.louvre.fr/mantegna/a...

A portrait of Isabella by Leonardo:



A bust by Romano



And information on who George Lafenestre was, a Curator of the Louvre.

http://www.dictionaryofarthistorians....

On Balzac:

...(On voit , pour d'autres raisons, dans un dictionnaire de l'oeuvre de Balzac où les personnages les plus illustres ne figurent que selon leurs rapports avec La Comédie Humaine

and in Gautier-Vignal's Memoir (a direct friend of Proust) one can read the parallel:

Comme Balzac, il avait l'intention de faire évoluer ses personnages selon les circonstances. Dans son "Contre Sainte-Beuve", Proust a souligné "l'admirable invention de Balzac d'avoir gardé les mêmes personnages dans tous ses romans".

That is why I found Monsieur Proust's Library such a disappointing book.

Marcel Proust wrote: The Duchess's vagaries of judgment spared no one, except her husband. He alone had never loved her; in him she had always felt an iron character, indifferent to her whims, contemptuous of her beauty, violent, one of those unbreakable wills under whose rule alone highly-strung people can find tranquillity. ML p. 646

Phillida wrote: "The narrator is describing Oriane's wit (so-called) and on p. 641 (ML) her ability to turn a little social mishap into a funny story.
One has to envy that ability just
"...as one is obliged to..."

And for all of Oriane's wit, the one who truly takes the cake is the narrator. What an astute observer and chronicler of the sometimes vapid and coarse conversations at those salons where not everything was glitter and splash. As we say in French, ça vole bas!

Kalliope wrote: "On Balzac:

...(On voit , pour d'autres raisons, dans un dictionnaire de l'oeuvre de Balzac où les personnages les plus illustres ne figurent que selon leurs rapports avec La Comédie Humaine

and i..."

Reading Proust has made me want to read more of Balzac. I downloaded a whole bunch of his books on my Kindle. I just hope I live long enough to read all I want to read or that I can take my Kindle in the afterlife.

Oriane, Oriane, Oriane

Certainly not the most likable character that Proust has created but one of the most interesting and complex. Among many citations...

Now, whenever Mme de Guermantes had just thought up, with reference to the merits and defects, suddenly transposed, of one of their friends, a new and succulent paradox, she longed to try it out on people capable of appreciating it, to bring out the full savor of its psychological originality and the brilliance of its epigrammatic malice. ML p. 647

Proust often links the aristocracy with the geography of France; it's Departments, regions, the land that they own or control and were raised on as were their ancestors.

Then, as I looked at and listened to Mme de Guermantes, I could see, imprisoned in the perpetual afternoon of her eyes, a sky of the Ile-de-France or of Champagne spread itself, grey-blue, oblique, with the same angle of inclination as in the eyes of Saint-Loup. ML p. 678

Human, all too human...

It's a ghastly thing... speaking of the Elstir portrait of her.

But at other times her appreciation of the picture was different: "I don't care for his painting, but he did once do a good portrait of me." The first of these judgments was addressed as a rule to people who spoke to the Duchess of her portrait, the other to those who did not refer to it and whom therefore she was anxious to inform of its existence. The first was inspired in her by coquetry, the second by vanity. ML p. 687

M. de Bréauté (Babal)

His hatred of snobs derived from his snobbishness, but made the simple-minded (in other words, everyone) believe that he was immune from snobbishness. ML p. 691

Jocelyne wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "On Balzac:

...(On voit , pour d'autres raisons, dans un dictionnaire de l'oeuvre de Balzac où les personnages les plus illustres ne figurent que selon leurs rapports avec La Coméd..."

Start reading...as you will be rewarded, when Balzac returns with the Baron de Charlus in "Sodom and Gomorrah." Maybe...'Illusions perdues' and
'Splendeurs et misères des courtisanes?'

Jocelyne wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "On Balzac:

...(On voit , pour d'autres raisons, dans un dictionnaire de l'oeuvre de Balzac où les personnages les plus illustres ne figurent que selon leurs rapports avec La Coméd..."

I read a great deal of Balzac years ago, but may be the time to revisit is approaching...!!

The Narrator, here the older one, reflects on his younger self, "a young dreamer", and the "inevitable disappointments" about his impressions of Mme de Guermantes and likens them to other realities he will find in life, all told in several very neat sentences: ML p. 688-690

Here again, Mme de Guermantes's mind attracted me just because of what it excluded (which was precisely the substance of my own thoughts) and everything which, by virtue of that exclusion, it had been able to preserve, that seductive vigor of supple bodies which no exhausting reflexion, no moral anxiety or nervous disorder has deformed. Her mind, of a formation so anterior to my own, was for me the equivalent of what had been offered me by the gait and the bearing of the girls of the little band along the seashore.

But she was incapable of understanding what I had looked for in her—the charm of her historic name—...

Eugene wrote:
But she was incapable of understanding what I had looked for in her—the charm of her historic name—...

Eugene, what page is this?

Eugene wrote: Then, as I looked at and listened to Mme de Guermantes, I could see, imprisoned in the perpetual afternoon of her eyes, a sky of the Ile-de-France or of Champagne spread itself, grey-blue, oblique, with the same angle of inclination as in the eyes of Saint-Loup. ML p. 678

Human, all too human.."

I left off about ten pages after this phrase, but I marked it last night, noting yet another of Proust's wonderful descriptions. So accurate, and so gorgeous.

Marcelita wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "On Balzac:

...(On voit , pour d'autres raisons, dans un dictionnaire de l'oeuvre de Balzac où les personnages les plus illustres ne figurent que selon leurs rappo..."

I am sure that I will enjoy Balzac even more now that I will be able to see these parallels.

Martin wrote: "Eugene wrote: Then, as I looked at and listened to Mme de Guermantes, I could see, imprisoned in the perpetual afternoon of her eyes, a sky of the Ile-de-France or of Champagne spread itself, grey-..."

I underlined this too. Gorgeous!

@ReemK10

I corrected the page #'s, ML p. 688-690

Not much has been said about the divorce that the Duchess seeks from the Duke other than its announcement to the reader in the early pages of this week's reading. Beside her reasons for the divorce, the question that I read with is why is Mme de Guermantes's salon considered the foremost in the Faubourg Saint-Germain.

My 'working' answer is the Duke. The Duchess was penniless and she married the noblest and the wealthiest bachelor in the Faubourg Saint-Germain. And no dummy he, the Duke skillfully gets the Princess de Parme to withdraw a request for the invitation of Mme de Souvré and flatters the Princess because she is among the invited to Oriane's home.

The Duke likes to show off her viper-like wit (she likes to be shown off) they exchange knowing glances in the midst of her "phrasing" and he sets her up for stories that demonstrate his wife's verbal 'dexterity'.

She personally knows the polyamorist Duke's lovers, tolerates them and even permits them in her home for dinner.

"Mme d'Arpajon is very fond of poetry," said the Princesse de Parme to her hostess...

"No, she doesn't understand the first thing about it,' replied Mme de Guermantes in an undertone, taking advantage of the fact that Mme d'Arpajon, who was dealing with an objection raised by General de Beautreilis, was too intent upon what she herself was saying to hear what was being murmured by the Duchess. "She has become literary since she's been forsaken. I may tell your Highness that it's I who have to bear the brunt of it because it's to me that she comes to complain whenever Basin hasn't been to see her, which is practically every day. But it isn't my fault, after all, if she bores him, and I can't force him to go to her, although I'd rather he were a little more faithful, because then I shouldn't see quite so much of her myself. But she drives him mad and I'm not surprised. She isn't a bad sort, but she's boring to a degree you can't imagine...And all this because Basin took it into his head for a year or so to go to bed with her." ML p. 675

Moreover at Mme de Guermantes there is a selectivity; one should 'not be boring' and that is not at Mme de Villeparisis's "at home" where 'talent' is a first priority.

What will the Duchess get with a divorce?

Eugene wrote: "Not much has been said about the divorce that the Duchess seeks from the Duke other than its announcement to the reader in the early pages of this week's reading. Beside her reasons for the divorce..."

"The Duke likes to show off her viper-like wit..."

Thinking that the Duke married "mind-candy" and a noble lineage...

And, I'm wary of "gossip' about the divorce, as it reminds me of Saint Loup's
supposed engagement to Mlle. d'Ambresac.
"He made it quite clear that, not only was it not settled, but there had never been any question of such a thing, that he had never set eyes on her, that he did not know who she was."

Does the Duchess love the Duke? We're told that he doesn't love her but in social interactions he seems proud of her in the way a parent would present a child to perform for the world to see.

The Duchess is disturbed by the complaints made to her by the Duke's lover and not that he has her. She wishes that he would be more "faithful" to his lover to lessen her burden.

They have an 'arrangement' that is comfortable to both of them as many long time married couples have, an evolved love, As lacking as it maybe in passion, it is refreshing to not have jealousy as the driving force that we see in the love affairs of Swann & the Narrator.

When one looks at Proust's first work Les plaisirs et les jours published in 1896 one sees a more liberal use of the figurative language that he uses here: "the perpetual afternoon of her eyes" but this use of figuration seems to be more restrained in ISOLT. Writing, like people, evolves with time but that passage is quite eloquent because so simple, 'a darling, too good to kill' and Proust didn't.

...I could see, imprisoned in the perpetual afternoon of her eyes, a sky of the Ile-de-France or of Champagne... ML p. 678

In ISOLT Proust moves to a different kind of figuration, a semantic sound of images where the structure of his syntax, his 'fugue' of phrases in juxtaposition (antithesis and near-antithesis), becomes musical.

Our relations were based on a misunderstanding which could not fail to become manifest as soon as my homage, instead of being addressed to the relatively superior woman she believed herself to be, was diverted to some other woman of equal mediocrity and exuding the same unconscious charm. ML p. 689

Eugene wrote: "@ReemK10

I corrected the page #'s, ML p. 688-690"

Sorry Eugene, I was looking in MKE 688-690 and couldn't find it.

There is a reference to the Duc de Guermantes dressed " in his smoking ( for in France we give to everything that is more or less British the one name that it happens not to bear in England)". (MKE 659) That made me realize of what we, in the Middle East, also refer to as "smoking" - the black tie tuxedo look is the same as the one described here.

http://www.essentiel-antwerp.com/medi...


The Duchesse speaking to Mme de Grouchy calls her "a regular Nimrod!" (MKE 662) By this I assume she means she is a fool. But in Arabic, nimrood means:
"By the Arabs Nimrod is considered as the supreme example of the tyrant ("al-jabbar").

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/art...

Marcelita wrote: Thinking that the Duke married "mind-candy" and a noble lineage...


Mind-candy, oh I like that!!!

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "There is a reference to the Duc de Guermantes dressed " in his smoking ( for in France we give to everything that is more or less British the one name that it happens not to bear in England)". (M..."

In Spain the tuxedo is also called "smoking"

Kalliope wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "There is a reference to the Duc de Guermantes dressed " in his smoking ( for in France we give to everything that is more or less British the one name that it happens..."

How interesting Kalliope!

ReemK10 wrote: Sorry Eugene, I was looking in MKE 688-690 and couldn't find it.

ML p.689, Kindle & paperback which is MKE

I got to the section where they gossip about the fare chez Zénaïde and decided to do a web search on bouchée à la reine where I found the entry in the French wikipedia. It turns out to be the little cases of puff pastry familiar to us nowadays from the frozen food case.

But then I clicked on the footnote there mentioning the chanson paillarde going by the same name and was somewhat agog at that rather indecent bit of verse of a sexual nature. I don't see any indication that Proust was writing with this second reference in mind, but I had to think about it for a moment.

Eugene wrote: "ReemK10 wrote: Sorry Eugene, I was looking in MKE 688-690 and couldn't find it.

ML p.689, Kindle & paperback which is MKE"

Found it!!! Because I haven't gotten there yet, I quickly skimmed those pages, and did not find it (twice)! Thanks Eugene.

Eugene wrote: ...a different kind of figuration, a semantic sound of images where the structure of his syntax, his 'fugue' of phrases in juxtaposition (antithesis and near-antithesis), becomes musical.

Our relations were based on a misunderstanding which could not fail to become manifest as soon as my homage, instead of being addressed to the relatively superior woman she believed herself to be, was diverted to some other woman of equal mediocrity and exuding the same unconscious charm. ML p. 689

Note the vocalization of nominative images in this sentence , "relations, misunderstanding, manifest, homage, superior woman, other woman, equal mediocrity, unconscious charm"

An antithesis begins with, "instead of...the superior woman she believed herself to be" and is opposed by "some other woman of equal mediocrity"

And a phrasal equation is offered, "the same unconscious charm" indicating the speaker is charmed (rendered irrational) by either of both opposites (women) and we have another antithesis that reflects back on the rationality expressed in the beginning of the sentence by "could not fail to become manifest as soon as my homage..."

Did Proust learn this semantic musicality? Yes and no, he became what he wrote and more so with time, but there are things which are inexplicable and forever unteachable.

On Tarquin le Superbe, or Lucius Tarquinus Superbus..and the Duchesse making a joke associating him to Charlus..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_T...

Depicted by Sir Alma-Tadema as Traquinius receives the Laurel:



The Poppies story may explain the joke for Charlus.

According to Livy,[28] Tarquin cut off the heads of the tallest poppies in his garden as an allegory to instruct his son Sextus to pacify a recently-conquered enemy city by executing its leading citizens. This is not not the one of many stories which leads to the modern expression of "Tall Poppy Syndrome" to describe the phenomenon of tearing down individuals who rise too far above the majority

And here is Titian's depiction of the rape of Lucretia by the son, Sextus Tarquinus.

ReemK10 wrote: Found it!!!

Good,

But she was incapable of understanding what I had looked for in her—the charm of her historic name—... ML p.698

The mention of "name", as in the titles of sections in ISOLT: "Place Names-The Name" in Vol. 1 and "Place Names-The Place" in Vol. 2 is quite important.

Again at the Guermantes "names" are mentioned,

...the Guermantes were different from the rest of society; they were more precious and rare. They had given me at first sight the opposite impression; I had found them vulgar, similar to ail other men and women, but this was because before meeting them I had seen them, as I saw Balbec, Florence or Parma, as names. Ml p. 599

Not to be too tall a poppy, but we see the shattering of the young Narrator's illusions that are contained in "names" and it began in Vol. 1 when the Narrator sees Mme de Guermantes at the wedding in Combray where her real appearance doesn't mesh with what he'd imagined or the 'name' that he'd assigned her in his mind. This disillusionment is important for achieving what he wants: to be a writer, told time and again in the pages we've read.

Proust will come back to 'name' again, I suspect. This is a piecemeal aspect in ISOLT, part of what I call the "texture of knowing and unknowing" where by leaving assorted building blocks--one here, one there--for us to assemble, not to find out 'the what' of the story told but 'the how'.

Je n'avais pas seulement vu Bellini, Winterhalter, les architectes jésuites, un ébéniste de la Restauration, venir prendre la place de génies qu'on avait dits fatigués et changeants...

Here is Netrebko singing Casta Diva.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiGpm5...

and here is the most famous Winterhalter.. Empress Sissi.



And here Il Gesù in Rome.

ReemK10: In the book of Genesis, Nimrod is described as "a mighty hunter." Remember the dozen brace of--was it pheasants?--M. de Grouchy brings to the Duchesse.

We have to clear this up. The Comptesse Greffulhe was just that; no "de." (Remember Mme. Molé).

Louis Gautier-Vignal tells us that he and Proust very often talked about politics.

So far we have seen the Narrator very involved with the Dreyfus affair, but he now becomes more aware of international politics..

...il y a stupidité par manque de cette finesse par le public qui prend tout "à la lettre", qui ne soupçonne ... une défaite quand les Russes par un mouvement stratégique se replient devant les Japonais sur des positions plus fortes et préparées à l'avance... une province ayant demandé l'indépendance à l'Empeur d'Allemagne, celui-ci accorde l'autonomie religieuse..

Richard wrote: "I got to the section where they gossip about the fare chez Zénaïde and decided to do a web search on bouchée à la reine where I found the entry in the French wikipedia. It turns out to be the littl..."

Wow! I never knew that chanson paillarde. I agree, I don't think that Proust could have had that in mind wihile mentioning the bouchée à la reine et only meant the delicate vol-au-vent puff pastry.

.. car le duc avait le goût des femmes grandes, à la fois majestueuses et désinvoltes, d'un genre intermédiaire entre la "Venus de Milo" et la "Victoire de Samothrace"...

Milo's Venus.



and the Victory..

Elizabeth wrote: "ReemK10: In the book of Genesis, Nimrod is described as "a mighty hunter." Remember the dozen brace of--was it pheasants?--M. de Grouchy brings to the Duchesse."

Yes it makes sense, but part of me wonders at the translation. Is it Nimrod in the original French? (I just searched a free online version and did not see the word).... double-meaning? Or inserted double-meaning on the part of Moncrieff?

Martin wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "ReemK10: In the book of Genesis, Nimrod is described as "a mighty hunter." Remember the dozen brace of--was it pheasants?--M. de Grouchy brings to the Duchesse."

Yes it makes s..."

I missed that double-meaning, so it was probably the Duchesse being her witty self.

Kalliope wrote: "On Tarquin le Superbe, or Lucius Tarquinus Superbus..and the Duchesse making a joke associating him to Charlus..

"

How has the Taquin le Superbe (vs the original Tarquin le Superbe) been translated into English?

Taquin comes from "taquiner" which means to tease, to irritate...

Jocelyne wrote: "Richard wrote: "I got to the section where they gossip about the fare chez Zénaïde and decided to do a web search on bouchée à la reine where I found the entry in the French wikipedia. It turns out..."

I found this food blog by Mimi Thorisson, who moved from Paris to Medoc.

"...bouchée à la Reine’ – this classic starter is exactly what I love about French cuisine – elegant and old-fashioned. [...] It’s the kind of food you would buy at the ‘traiteur’ (delicatessen) or served at your great-aunt’s house for a ‘Proustian’ lunch."
http://mimithorisson.com/2012/05/08/b...

Consider this a warning...visual torment if you click http://mimithorisson.com/my-recipes/

Martin wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "ReemK10: In the book of Genesis, Nimrod is described as "a mighty hunter." Remember the dozen brace of--was it pheasants?--M. de Grouchy brings to the Duchesse."

Yes it makes s..."

Martin, in the original French it is Nemrod.

My understanding is that the Nemrod is addressed to Monsieur Grouchy who has just entered, and not to Madame. He arrives late because his train had a problem. He is a hunter and promises to bring them a dozen pheasants.

Nemrod was known as an amazing hunter.

It is extraordinary how rude the Duchesse can be.

The section on Bornier and his La fille de Roland, and how the Duchesse complains about the smell of Bornier...

je n'ai jamais pu me résoudre à l'inviter parce que j'aurais été obligée chaque fois de faire désinfecter au formol

and later:

Le charmant Hoyos avait cru me faire plaisir en flanquant à côté de moi cet académicien empesté

and later on:

"Senti" est très juste pour un auteur aussi odorant...

Here is the wiki on the writer Henri de Bornier..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_de...

But she is sort of redeemed by expressing appreciation of Wagner:

.. avec de longueurs insupportables Wagner avait du génie. Lohengrin est un chef-d'oeuvre. Même dans Tristan il y a çà et là une page curieuse. Et le Choeur des fileuses du Vaisseau fantôme est une merveille.

Here is the Spinning Chorus from The Flying Dutchman:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a-Eg...

Kalliope: "Tarquin le Superbe, or Lucius Tarquinus Superbus.." Most translators do this: Charlus, has offered one of his stately homes to his sister, Mme. de Marsantes (Saint-Loup's mother). She doesnt really want it, doesnt like the area, the climate, etc. And someone says, "Maybe Charlus is making the offer just to tease her." And the Duchesse says, "Teaser? Teaser? He must be Teaser Augustus." Since Charlus is offering a virtual palace to Mme. de Marsantes. The Courvoisiers, the Narrator says in a hilarious aside, just don't get it. They go around saying, Oriane called Uncle Palamede Caesar Ausgustus, which isnt that bad a description of him, but why does everyone make such a fuss about her?

The "teaser" in Proust's life was Horance Finaly.

"La Raspeliere" Mme. Verdurin's summer villa was inspired by Les Frémonts in Trouville. Jacques-Émile Blanche sketched Proust on October 1, 1898, before beginning the full length portrait in oil. The drawing can be seen here, under Marcel Proust. (http://reynaldo-hahn.net/Html/albumph...) Will not open on iPad.

" It is he (Horace Finaly)who buys the mansion to Fremonts Baignières and offer his niece the beautiful Madame Hugo Finaly to tease. So that the seller will exclaim 'this is the super Teaser!' Proust not forget to put the good word in the mouth of Oriane de Guermantes at de Charlus. Hugo Finaly, the father of Horace and Mary, embodies the high finance (he led the bank of Paris and the Netherlands),...." (Horrors...Google Translate!)

"C’est lui qui achètera le manoir des Frémonts aux Baignières et l’offrira à sa nièce la belle madame Hugo Finaly pour la taquiner. Si bien que le vendeur s’exclamera « c’est Taquin le superbe ! » Proust n’oubliera pas de placer ce bon mot dans la bouche d’Oriane de Guermantes à l’adresse de Charlus. Hugo Finaly, le père d’Horace et de Mary, incarne cette haute finance ( il dirigeait la banque de Paris et des Pays-Bas ) que Marcel a beaucoup fréquentée à travers d’autres relations comme les Fould, les Rothschild, et dont il s’est servi pour camper ses personnages Rufus Israël ou Nissim Bernard. Horace règnera à son tour sur les finances de France mais leur amitié se relâchera avec le temps."

http://voyages.ideoz.fr/proust-trouvi...

Elizabeth wrote: "Kalliope: "Tarquin le Superbe, or Lucius Tarquinus Superbus.." Most translators do this: Charlus, has offered one of his stately homes to his sister, Mme. de Marsantes (Saint-Loup's mother). She..."

Thank you Elizabeth. A pretty smart way of going about it... Caesar the Teaser versus The Taquin Tarquin...

What a difficult novel to translate..

Marcelita wrote: "The "teaser" in Proust's life:
"La Raspeliere" Mme. Verdurin's summer villa was inspired by Les Frémonts in Trouville. Jacques-Émile Blanche sketched Proust on October 1, 1898, before beginning t..."

Thank you Marcelita.. It is fascinating how Proust remembered all the little things from his life and introduced them in his novel in unsuspected places.

Pour nous taquiner...

Echoes...of Françoise and Elstir and Swann and Manet.

"M. de Guermantes having declared (following upon Elstir's asparagus and those that had just been served after the chicken financière) that green asparagus grown in the open air, which, as has been so quaintly said by the charming writer who signs himself E. de Clermont-Tonnerre, 'have not the impressive rigidity of her sisters,' ought to be eaten with eggs." MP p. 690
http://mimithorisson.com/2012/05/10/e...

Marcelita wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "Richard wrote: "I got to the section where they gossip about the fare chez Zénaïde and decided to do a web search on bouchée à la reine where I found the entry in the French wikipe..."

A torment indeed. I am drooling again all over my keyboard. I certainly like the idea of 'simplified' version. I think I will try it with shrimps.