The Year of Reading Proust discussion

This thread is for the discussion that will take place through Sunday, 6 Oct. of The Captive, to page 462 (to the paragraph beginning: “Already for some little time I had felt...”)

Early in this section the narrator talks about the unique nature of each individual's memories and uses a wonderfully eloquent phrase to describe what he means: cet albâtre translucide de nos souvenirs.
Finding sentences like this is why I love reading the Recherche.
Charlus, too, keeps me reading. He is a wonderful character and I really enjoyed the part where Brichot and the Narrator try to keep him busy in one of the Verdurin's remote salons while the clan plan the coup but Charlus entertains them royally instead with his forthright opinions. He is just so enjoyable. Elsewhere, I've jokingly compared him to a good wine but he IS like a good wine, brawny, full-bodied, complex, decadent, massive, plummy, spicy...and just a little cloying.

Fionnuala wrote: "Elsewhere, I've jokingly compared him to a good wine but he IS like a good wine, brawny, full-bodied, complex, decadent, massive, plummy, spicy...and just a little cloying. "

And can cause with some folks a nasty reaction....

Fionnuala wrote: "Early in this section the narrator talks about the unique nature of each individual's memories and uses a wonderfully eloquent phrase to describe what he means: cet albâtre translucide de nos souve..."

In relation to what the Narrator knows is being planed for Charlus, which brings him to portray his own moral stand.. this passage is a good example of why I really like the Narrator, in spite of everything..

.. De plus le sentiment de la justice, jusqu'à une complète absence de sens moral, m'était inconnu. J'étais au fond de mon coeur tout acquis à celui qui était le plus faible et qui était malheureux. Je n'avais aucune opinion sur la mesure dans laquelle le bien et le mal pouvaient être engagés dans les relations de Morel et de M. de Charlus, mais l'osée des souffrances qu'on préparait à M. de Charlus m'était intolérable. J'aurais voulu le prévenir , ne savais comment le faire.

·Karen· wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Elsewhere, I've jokingly compared him to a good wine but he IS like a good wine, brawny, full-bodied, complex, decadent, massive, plummy, spicy...and just a little cloying. "

And..."

Well said: I Just left off at the part where Charlus makes some very interesting claims about Odette. My initial reaction: "He must be lying. Right? Right?!"

From his smile, a tribute to the defunct salon
which he saw with his mind's eye, I understood that what
Brichot, perhaps without realising it, preferred in the old
drawing-room, more than the large windows, more than
the gay youth of his hosts and their faithful, was that un-
real aspect (which I myself could discern from certain
similarities between La Raspeliere and the Quai Conti) of
which, in a drawing-room as in everything else, the actual,
external aspect, verifiable by everyone, is but the
prolongation, the aspect which has detached itself from
the outer world to take refuge in our soul, to which it
gives as it were a surplus-value, in which it is absorbed
into its habitual substance, transforming itself—houses
that have been pulled down, people long dead, bowls of
fruit at suppers which we recall—into that translucent alabaster
of our memories of which we are incapable of conveying
the colour which we alone can see, so that we can
truthfully say to other people, when speaking of these
things of the past, that they can have no conception of
them, that they are unlike anything they have seen, and
that we ourselves cannot inwardly contemplate without a
certain emotion, reflecting that it is on the existence of
our thoughts that their survival for a little longer depends,
the gleam of lamps that have been extinguished and the
fragrance of arbours that will never bloom again. ML p. 379

This sentence is a reason why I read Proust--the past is gone, so melancholily unretrievable, except though the art of his writing, recalling what he has sensed, sharing it, making us sense it too.

@Karen - yes, I can imagine Charlus wouldn't agree with everyone - he might even leave some people with a good old gueule de bois!

@Kalliope, I agree that the Narrator presents himself as caring deeply about what happens to Charlus in this section but a real friend would warn him. Of course, for the purposes of the narrative, he can't warn him so I don't hold it against him...much.

@Martin, I don't think he is lying - although we know he loves indulging in a little embellished gossip - as the Narrator constantly reminds us by comparing him to an old woman ( do all old women love to gossip - I'm not so sure). I think Odette was capable of lots of intrigue and Charlus, having been placed by Swann in a sort of 'minder' position, the equivalent of Andrée's position vis à vis Albertine, was perfectly situated to know exactly what she got up to.
Interesting too, that we get some explanation in this section of the de Crecy person the Narrator dined with in Balbec and also a mention of Forcheville whom I had forgotten was related to Saniete.

@Eugene :"..into that translucent alabaster of our memories..."
Thanks for posting the full translation of the beautiful phrase I quoted in post #2 - you have more patience for typing out long sections than I have or perhaps you have a share facility on your ereader (if you have one)?
This is the first volume I've read on a kindle app - because of a mistake in my paper and ink book order - and I thought one of the advantages would be that I'd be able to share my favourite passages on gr, especially since gr and amazon are so closely connected, but it seems I can only share on Facebook or Twitter and even though I have (mostly unused) accounts with both, it seems like a lot of bother to have to share via another account.
Has anyone figured out how to extend the share possibilities on a kindle to gr?

Martin wrote: "·Karen· wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Elsewhere, I've jokingly compared him to a good wine but he IS like a good wine, brawny, full-bodied, complex, decadent, massive, plummy, spicy...and just a little..."

Martin, I also got the feeling that he is not lying... Back in the Swann section we had been wondering how come the Narrator knew so much about Swann and Odette given that he had been a child when all those events had taken place, and we had thought that someone must have told him... It could have been Charlus then, and we get to hear now more about it..

Fionnuala wrote:
@Kalliope, I agree that the Narrator presents himself as caring d..."

Yes, you are right that the Narrator has not been very brave.. somewhere he had regretted that he did not stand up more... (forgot where)... but at least he does show a sincere dislike of cruelty.

On the technical issue, I don't know how to link the kindle with GR... On the previous volumes of La recherché, Gutenberg.org had the html versions, and one could do searches and copy/paste onto this blog, but they do not have the entire work, and La prisonnière is not there... alas..

@Fionnuala

I read on a Kindle app on my iPhone but I have hard copies of ISOLT too, the ML edition, which I scan with ABBYY OCR software on my iMac, copy, paste and post as above. But when I'm in New York, away from my iMac, I find the passage I want in HMTL Gutenberg, in either French or Moncrieff English (on Gr too), on the "Find In Page" app on my iPhone then copy and paste to the Gr mobile app which is 'down and dirty' as you can not edit or delete the comment once it's posted.

Kalliope wrote: "On the technical issue, I don't know how to link the kindle with GR... "

Thanks for responding Kall. I might petition the board of directors here...although I got my paper copy of La Prisonnière in the post today so maybe I need the scan software Eugene mentioned instead.

Thanks Eugene, I'm going to look into the AABBY OCR for my iMac as soon as I can.

Eugene wrote: "From his smile, a tribute to the defunct salon
which he saw with his mind's eye, I understood that what
Brichot, perhaps without realising it, preferred in the old
drawing-room, more than the la..."

Thanks for underlining this gorgeous passage, Eugene. It is so deliciously melancholy that I read it several times and I am happy to see it again now.

@Fionnuala

And this last tip of IT before returning to Proust: The older version of ABBYY OCR doesn't work on Apple's latest OS, Mountain Lion; if you upgrade the OS you must upgrade the OCR software too; I have an old 'cheapo' Epson flatbed scanner, a V33, which works fine.

Look for a scanner with OCR capability compatible with your OS.

The death of Mme de Villeparisis is alluded to by the Narrator, but a note in my edition draws attention to the fact that she will appear alive later on in the book.

These kind of announcements, in passing, are called in French "une mort par prétérition".

Theatrical ideas again... the Narrator wants to simulate Charlus in his "comédies qu'il aimait jouer" and pretend, when he is back with Albertine after the Verdurin soirée, that his intention is to break up with her..

More play-acting.

Rereading the section on Charlus and his account of Odette and how it was him who introduced her to Swann, I am convinced that it was Charlus who told the Narrator all the information on the couple that we got in Un amour de Swann.

There is the: Enfin, vous n'allez pas commencer à me faire raconter l'histoire de Swann, nous en aurions pour dix ans, vous comprenez, je connais ça comme personne.

And the relevance of Swann's story to the Narrator is underlined in:

... que la chronique des adultères prend la précision de l'histoire, et s'allonge en listes d'ailleurs indifférentes et qui ne deviennent tristes que pour un autre jaloux comme j'étais, qui ne peut s'empêcher de comparer son cas à celui dont il entend parler et qui se demande si pour la femme dont il doute une liste aussi illustre n'existe pas.> p. 406.

And I think it was Fionnuala who drew attention, in S&G, to the name of the man who coincided in the coastal train or "tortillard" with the Narrator and who valued being treated by him to nice dinners.

So, now we learn that this M. de Crécy had been Odette's first husband and that she spent all his money....

Kalliope wrote: "And I think it was Fionnuala who drew attention, in S&G, to the name of the man who coincided in the coastal train or "tortillard" with the Narrator and who valued being treated by him to nice dinn..."

So he (Crécy) may have been able to fill in even more than we've been told, how intriguing!

Yes, but I think I remember the Narrator planning to ask him if he was related to Odette but he never did - he let the opportunity go.
Or did I just make all that up? At this stage in the Recherche, I no longer know the difference between what I've read and what I've thought about what I've read...

Fionnuala wrote: "
Or did I just make all that up? At this stage in the Recherch..."

Yes, I know the feeling.. also it is become harder and harder to find anything from previous reads..

But I am loving this volume... In spite of the image of the two captives, we have had two weeks of fascinating reading with Proust's aesthetics.. And now many stories and situations are coming to the conclusion.. We can follow how those ribs in the structure are beginning to meet at the vault.

Kalliope wrote: "But I am loving this volume..In spite of the two captives..."

Yes, me too.
Strangely, the whole captive situation didn't bother me that much - I didn't feel Albertine was a victim in any way - she stayed because it suited her and she humoured the Narrator in his obsessions for her own reasons.

Another one of those recurring motifs: the way our actions and words end up achieving a quite different outcome to the one intended. This may actually have been in last week's: but I mean those secretive conversations going on with people keeping a weather eye out to see if the person being discussed or deceived can hear you, which furtive glance immediately makes that person absolutely sure that they are being discussed or deceived.

You mean when the septet were playing Vinteuil's septet and Charlus was setting up further engagements for Morel? There were some amusing games going on definitely. One planning a musical soirée and imagining the letter she would send after the event telling the other why she didn't invite her. It seemed to me that being seen or overheard planning such a coup was a coup in itself.

That's the one, yes. And I vaguely felt the same thing with Mme Verdurin's intrigue: that it came off better(?) than she'd ever expected, and Charlus reacts differently to how anyone expected, (me included). I was waiting for the grand tempestuous insult, along the lines of the augustes orteils, but he collapses like a deflated balloon. A sorry figure.
And then Mme Verdurin is motivated entirely by petty, selfish concerns, but it sounds quite plausible to me that Morel needs to be very careful about not turning into a permanent amateur, passed around from salon to salon, his reputation tarnished by appearing in the wrong places.

·Karen· wrote: "but it sounds quite plausible to me that Morel needs to be very careful about not turning into a permanent amateur, passed around from salon to salon, his reputation tarnished by appearing in the wrong places. "
I think you belong in the Quai Conti!

As we know this volume is unfinished. I think of it as a draft; it's so much easier to read than those volumes that preceded it and because it is unfinished it should not be compared to them, even loosely, etc. It is different, it is a draft. Proust's death prevented him from going back and adding his necessary digressions, his explanations of character or situation, his comments by the reflective or omniscient Narrator or by adding his parentheticals of sentence but his 'parentheticals' of structure too.

As proof of this look at how he worked, look at the changes of the first sentence on the typescript at the Morgan; they were made when he had an ending written and look at the writing of the first volume and the last which were done before the middle volumes. Proust's method of writing was to have an ending to write to and as Rodin said, describing his own work procedures, 'to change everything planned along the way'.

Proust looses me in this volume, not only on the deaths of Dr. Cottard & Mme de Villeparisis but for the first time I found myself reading for what will happen to Charlus, to Albertine and the Narrator when he gets home, etc. rather than reading Proust writing about the present predicament and being entertained by that alone as I was in his more finished volumes. La Captive is an easy read, it is quick but it lost me: anything can happen and often does--it is a working draft--when I compare it to volumes I prefer, I shrug. This volume reads from A to Z easily; it is unfinished. True, there are parts that are finished--to my way of thinking--passages to be relished, sentences to be remembered: the 20 pages on listening to the Septet and they are superb and there are many to be found in La Captive.

However reading a draft, a posthumous publication assembled clumsily by well meaning souls, has incredible value to me; it permits me to see how the writer worked--I love seeing that--seeing not what he could have said but seeing what actually is.

More on this during the week and the following...

On the "Reine de Naples".

She is the sister of the Empress Elizabeth (Sisi or Sissi) and is therefore Maria Sophie of Bavaria.


Above by August Riedel, c. 1860.



She was the last Queen Consort. The following article identifies her as the character in Proust's work. She was a widow by then.

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art6.htm

Fionnuala wrote: "
@Kalliope, I agree that the Narrator presents himself as caring d..."

May be he could have warned Charlus, but he preferred to get away... You are right in that the Narrator could have behaved in a more noble way. But at least he realizes and acknowledges it.

....Lâche comme je l'étais déjà dans mon enfance à Combray quand je m'enfuyais pour ne pas voir offrir du cognac à mon grand-père......, je n'avais plus qu'une pensée, partir de chez les Verdurin avant que l'exécution de Charlus eût lieu. p. 415.

Another inconsistency is the name of M. Verdurin. Page 416 it is Auguste and in 422 it is Gustave.

Gustave (on apprit ainsi que M. Verdurin s'appelait Gustave).

When Mme Verdurin is warning Morel about what could happen to his career as a musician if he continued to rely on playing in the "salons mondains", she mentions Chabrier, the composer, and quotes him in something he has supposedly said about her:

Le pauvre Chabrier disait toujours: "Il n'y a que Mme Verdurin qui sache les faire parler". p.420.

I find it rather extraordinary the way Proust uses real people and mixes them in his fictional account giving them even concrete utterances which could not have taken place, at least as quoted.

Proust's readers must have had a very different experience from ours when reading this kind of passages in which he brings real people in a fictional construction.

Emmanuel Chabrier (1841-1894). I like some of his songs. As Mme Verdurin implies with the "pauvre", he was dead by then.

A sample of his music with nice Manet paintings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgJW9F...

@Eugene about this volume being unfinished: I think of all the hints we get as to further developments as a kind of reminder to the author himself, almost like little notes addressed to himself. I can't help but think that in a final draft he probably would have got rid of those "As we shall see laters", I don't really know why. Maybe because they create that tension, as you say, to see what will happen rather than reading for the meditative, the expansive, the digressive. It makes for a quicker pace, a quite different pace, I feel it stepping along, briskly. All that dialogue too.

In the G-F there is a passage not included in my audio. I think it is interesting. It is interspersed in the part that describes Charlus' reaction to his "exécution".

L'étonnement, la perplexité qui succédèrent au bout d'un moment à la stupeur, dans l'âme de M. Charlus, et qui y persistèrent longtemps, apparaissent mal ici parce que nous avons eu soin d'indiquer les causes de cet incident, au lieu de peindre seulement, et ne disant rien d'autre que ce que savait M. de Charlus. p. 424.

This reads like a funny "aside" from the Narrator who now refers to himself as "nous", and justifies the intermission which however is not included in all editions.

He also refers to himself as 'nous' when musing on the vulgar terms that 'we' use when 'we' are together with Albertine. (p.325 fc)

And another example of things working out on a different path to the intended effect; Albertine claims she only associated herself with Mlle Vinteuil in order to make herself more interesting to the narrator:

..elle avait, comme il arrive si souvent, atteint la vérité par un autre chemin que celui qu'elle voulait prendre." (p324 fc)

I read this section so fast that I've already forgotten some of the details - like this one you've just mentioned, Karen.
But where does this revelation leave us vis à vis Albertine?
Inclined to think her innocent after all?
Confirmed in our opinion that she can twist the truth to suit any new circumstance?
Further confused about who she really is?
The Narrator aught to be equally confused, I think.

Fionnuala wrote: "I read this section so fast that I've already forgotten some of the details - like this one you've just mentioned, Karen.
But where does this revelation leave us vis à vis Albertine?
Inclined to ..."

Yes, I do not have a view of Albertine except in so far as she may be inspired in Agostinelli (information extraneous to Proust's novel).. the Narrator does talk of the multiple personas in Albertine... (may try and search for the extract.. I thnk later on, when he is back at home).

Kalliope, remember that Crècy was one of the most terrible French defeats in history. "The battle, which saw an early use of the deadly longbow by the English..." I quote that because--and maybe this is one reason I love Proust so...my love of history's immediacy. There is in our county a large family whose last name is Bowman. Usually pronounced BO-mun. I was driving through our little town once, and saw a sign that said "Bowman's Electric" and I realized what it was: Bow-man. Probably many Englishmen took that heroic last name after Crècy .
And Fionnuala: yes, the Narrator did think of mentioning Odette, but only as a joke (and he thinks of the courtesan Emilienne d'Alençon, and how the Duke (or was it Prince?) d'Alençon was not offended at her use of his name), but then he feels he does not know M. de Crècy well enough to hazard such a remark.

Elizabeth wrote: "..And Fionnuala: yes, the Narrator did think of mentioning Odette, but only as a joke"
Thanks, Elizabeth. I remember feeling at the time that there was bound to be a connection but that the Narrator chose not to reveal exactly what it was at that time.

Fionnuala.. I forgot where you put the ref to the Goncourt pastiche.. In the lounge?

Page 59 of the GF edition of his letters, Correspondance, Kalliope.
Speaking of pastiches, I received a copy of Anne Martin-Fugier's Les Salons de la IIIe République yesterday and in the early pages there is an account of a ball given by Jean-Louis de Faucigny-Lucinge in 1928 where the theme was La Recherche du Temps Perdu and everyone came as characters from the book. Mme Paul Morand was Mme Verdurin and her husband, Paul Morand was Charlus. I'm going to check if there are images anywhere on the web...

Kalliope wrote: "When Mme Verdurin is warning Morel about what could happen to his career as a musician if he continued to rely on playing in the "salons mondains", she mentions Chabrier, the composer, and quotes h..."

So lovely!

Fionnuala wrote: "Page 59 of the GF edition of his letters, Correspondance, Kalliope.
Speaking of pastiches, I received a copy of Anne Martin-Fugier's Les Salons de la IIIe République yesterday and in the early pag..."

Wonderful... Already!.. in 1928.. I think I am ordering that tomorrow.

Proust is, according to Roger Shattuck, a hypotactic writer, a causal writer, and many of those causes came as an afterthought in his revision of the text and were added. Often, I can feel his later revisions in the finished, previous volumes but more so in this volume where I can feel their absence; here for the first time there is a smoothness of narrative that wasn't dominant in the intertwined stories told earlier; here, there is the telling of a single story, for example in this week's reading, what will Morel say and how will that affect Charlus after he'd been talked to by Mme Verdurin.

When I say that Proust looses me in La Captive, it is because the story becomes less than necessary, almost arbitrary, less causal, and I suspect that had he lived he would have made changes and those changes would have made the narrative more complex and necessary; they would have engaged me.

There are literary cliches, indelibly crude here, that are uncommon to Proust, for example the left fan is like a revolver presented in a play and the gun must be used in a later act as the Queen must come back to recover her fan.

In La Captive we are left with different questions than those of his earlier volumes where we asked ourselves why did he do that and now we ask ourselves why didn't he do that, referring to Charlus, the Narrator and Albertine after the Verdurins...

Even though the volume is unfinished there are many, many finished portions to enjoy and I do.

Eugene: when Proust contracted pneumonia, in those pre-antibiotic days there was only one treatment; total rest and skilled nursing. His brother Dr. Robert Proust tried...and tried...to no avail. Proust felt time was running out and refused to stop working.
"And ever at my back I hear
Time's winged chariot hurrying near..."

I once lived on a large river, near the mouth. My little cabin was built on pilings, the high tide coming up underneath. Sometimes it flooded. Once, during a horrific windstorm, the waves were pounding my house; and the old logs underneath had come afloat, and were beating hard against the pilings. Not a good feeling. And for the first time, I knew what Marvell was talking about.

Another of the connecting ribs is "la femme de chambre de la Baronne Putbus", who turns out to be the sister of the "cocher" of a friend of Charlus. The "cocher", called Théodore was a young man from Combray that the Duchesse the Guermantes got to work for the friend.

is this Théodore they youth we encountered in Combray?

Kalliope wrote: "..is this Théodore the youth we encountered in Combray? ."

Now I'm curious, Kall. What youth?
The character I've been waiting for an explanation about is the sick woman who lived in seclusion in a little house by the water's edge on the way to Tansonville. I somehow felt there would be a fuller explanation of her at a later date.

Elizabeth, I like that Marvell poem and your account of a near brush with death.
Had Proust but time, how much more might he have achieved?

Yes, Eugene, I felt the incident of the Reine de Naples' fan was a little laboured but the outcome was worth it - she turned up at the right moment and rescued Charlus in right royal style.

I also found peculiar the way the "exécution" of Charlus takes place, in theatrical terms...

Mme Verdurin makes a sign to her husband to take Morel away. Some of their dialogue is given although the two are alone.

Then they come back to the main Salon and Mme Verdurin gets involved in such a direct way that she embarrasses her husband because she is giving away what they had planed. I understand that it is only the three of them who are in the Salon (or is Ski there as well?).

We get Mme Verdurin's dialogue and it is she and not the husband who really puts Morel on guard. She executes the definite blow by using the word "domestique" and mentions the "Croix de la Légion d'Honneur".

And then, and only then, the Narrator, with Charlus and Brichot enter the Salon. And we now can rely on the Narrator as witness to how Charlus reacts.

Then the Verdurin marriage withdraw to the "premier salon" because she wants to know more about the meeting between her husband and Morel, but Ski asks them something.

That is when the Queen of Naples comes back and hears the conversation between Mme Verdurin and Ski and understands what they have done to Charlus.

The Queen then takes the role of the Saviour and takes Charlus elegantly away. This last scene is told to the Narrator by Ski (.. en face de qui, me raconta Ski, se trouvaient alors Mme Verdurin et Morel).

The whole execution seems a play. One which requires the stage being divided in sections presenting simultaneously different actions, all of which the spectator can follow.

I think I have to reread this scene.

The sense of irony, in particular the ironic turns in life, and how we just cannot predict the future based on the past...

Mais nous nous représentons l'avenir comme un reflet du présent projeté dans un espace vide tandis qu'il est le résultat souvent tout prochain de causes qui nous échappent pour la plupart. p. 427.

And the irony of the fan... We saw last week how Charlus made fun of the Queen of Naples because he thought the fan was tacky, and associated her to a "violette" (flower seller?).. And it is precisely thanks to this fan that she comes back and rescues him from the humiliation he has endured.

The notes on my edition explain that the musical soirée is based on one with the pianist Léon Delafoose that took place "chez la baron Alphonse de Rothschild" on the 5th of June of 1897 and the person who had been insulted was Montesquiou.

As for the triumphal exit of the Queen and Charlus, it seems a similar scene had already been included in Jean Santeuil where it was Jean who was rescued by the King of Portugal and the soirée had taken place at the Marmets... and the note also mentions that there are additional similar passages....

.. et dans divers passages où les avanies qu'il a subies sont aussitôt compensées publiquement par la faveur d'un grand personnage.

Fionnuala wrote: "
Now I'm curious, Kall. What youth?
..."

I am not sure, but wasn't there a garçon from the village who got a bit close to Gilberte?.. I may be making this up now.. Soon I will have to engage in a Recherche de la recherche...

So interesting about the Rothschild soirée, Kall. Now that I've got my GF edition finally, I need to go back and read all the footnotes.

I agree that the Charlus episode is like a play but the stage directions confused me at times, who was where when whatever was said.
But then perhaps P was only working it all out as was pointed out earlier and what we've got here are only his working notes.