The History Book Club discussion

This is the Week Five thread for the next Presidential Series selection (The Years of Lyndon Johnson: The Passage of Power) by Robert A. Caro.

The week's reading assignment is:

Week FIVE - October 15th - October 21st -> Chapter EIGHT p. 199 - 250
EIGHT - "Cut"

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to begin reading this selection and/or to post.

Bryan Craig is the assisting moderator who will be leading this discussion. We hope you enjoy this discussion of another great book in the Presidential Series.

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Notes

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Glossary

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Bibliography

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Table of Contents and Syllabus

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Welcome,

~Bryan

Robert A. Caro

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter Eight: Cut

LBJ's life got worse. There were infrequent Cabinet meetings, Senators no longer talked with him as they did in the past, reporters stopped calling, and he just hung around the outer White House offices hoping to talk to someone.

He was depressed as he saw he was becoming like his father: irrelevant. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, LBJ was part of the ExComm (part of the NSC) that were trying to figure out solutions. At first, LBJ was quiet during many of the sessions. LBJ favored unannounced air strikes against Cuba. He saw a naval blockade as a sign of weakness. Because of this, he became marginalized as JFK and RFK favored the blockade. He was not part of the secret deal to pull missiles out of Turkey.

RFK and LBJ's relationship continued to sour. RFK never forgave him for attacking JFK during the 1960 campaign and lied about saying them. RFK still saw things black and white, although he had a softer side, especially regarding his children. But he hated LBJ. He saw the vice president as a liar and a threat. Things seemed more desperate as there was talk RFK might run for president in 1968, the year LBJ was supposed to run.

It seems his influence and mood is getting worse.

Here is an interesting quote:

"The White House is small, but if you're not at the center, it seems enormous. You get the feeling that there are all sorts of meetings going on without you, all sorts of people clustered in small groups, whispering, always whispering. I felt that way as vice president." (p. 200)

Do you think this sums things up well? What does this say about JFK, too?

The Kennedys were always at that time known as clannish and very tight with their family, extended family and friends. Legions of them.

So I can imagine that LBJ started to feel like the spinster aunt nobody had anything in common with. It appeared to me that there was also a sense of elite snobbishness among the inner circle and maybe in that way too Lyndon was left feeling lacking and inadequate. No matter how JFK tried to indicate that LBJ was to be treated with the utmost respect, he was still marginalizing the man himself and these sort of atmospheric things always start at the top and filter down. I think in many ways what happened good and bad seemed to focus on his brother's enmities and his too enormous clout in the White House.

What attorney general ever ran the show and meetings like RFK was allowed to do.

I think the Kennedy father wanted a doberman like RFK protecting his brother; yet it may have been RFK that made the situation and the environment more dangerous for his brother than it might have been. And of course for himself as well in the end. LBJ could have been used more extensively and could have been a real help to JFK in the Senate and he was under-utilized for all of the wrong reasons because it had to be JFK who was worried about his own vice president.

A real tragedy all around.

I really appreciated the extra background on RFK. It made him seem more human and likable. Caro's earlier description of him was not flattering at all. I was also really impressed with RFK during the Cuban Missile Crisis (50 years ago today). He kept the "war hawks" at bay convince teh President to hold out until a compromise was reached. Caro made an interesting point that the two men seemed in every way like opposites, but they actually had a lot in common. They were both shrewd politicians. I think both were always analyzing the situation more than their peers. Neither one ever left anything to chance and did everything they could to influence an outcome to go their way. I guess it's no wonder they butted heads so much.

There was an article in USA today about the Cuban Missile Crisis on the front page today. I've been looking for the link but can't seem to find it. I thought it was fate that I just happened to finish this chapter, which is the most I've ever read about the Crisis, on the 50th anniversary.

Bentley wrote: "The Kennedys were always at that time known as clannish and very tight with their family, extended family and friends. Legions of them.

So I can imagine that LBJ started to feel like the spinster..."

Thanks, Bentley. I think it shows how JFK ran his presidency. He side-stepped many institutional processes (like the Joint Chiefs) and went with a small cadre of advisers. This makes it much more difficult to get your foot in the door.

You are right, LBJ was not part of the crowd. I have to agree that it was a shame, because LBJ had experience.

Theresa wrote: "I really appreciated the extra background on RFK. It made him seem more human and likable. Caro's earlier description of him was not flattering at all. I was also really impressed with RFK during t..."

Thanks Theresa. It was impressive that JFK and RFK stood up to the pressure of the military and "war hawks" on an air strike and invasion. Both the U.S. and Cuba were arming for war (with nuclear arms).

It is interesting when Caro talked about how the hatred between both RKF and LBJ was visceral. It was just about differing of opinion, but style, the way they approached people in a physical way (p. 244).

Bryan wrote: "Bentley wrote: "The Kennedys were always at that time known as clannish and very tight with their family, extended family and friends. Legions of them.

So I can imagine that LBJ started to feel l..."

Yes, I agree - he certainly did - look how he was able to handle the dead on arrival Kennedy bills and agendas which were ill timed and which LBJ tried to give Kennedy advice on and was ignored.

So true, he was a master. They should have made him Congressional liason, rather VP, lol. Seriously, I can't imagine how low LBJ felt in all this. I think he wanted to help JFK.

I do too after reading this book.

When I started reading this chapter, I said, now there is the Bobby Kennedy I believed in. A person who fights injustice; a person who believes in the rights of mankind and in democracy. Then, of course, Caro brings us back to the bi-polar aspect of RFK. Amazingly, it took Bobby's knack for hatred to get his fathers respect. Page 242 "Bobby hates like me," Joe Kennedy said. "When I hate some sonofabitch, I hate him until I die.". Can you imagine trying to live up to that type of venom? Can you imagine having to kowtow to someone who hates you as LBJ had to do? This was a completely dysfunctional dynamic.

I think RFK changes over time from the seeds of this compassion.

It would be very difficult dynamic.

I've been both listening to this chapter in the car, and reading my print version at home. I've been thinking that the humiliation LBJ suffered during the VP years may have made him stronger. He was a complex and flawed man, and that seems to have never changed much. Still, I'm of the opinion that he was lost while Veep, with nothing much to do. I wish that JFK would have made a little better use of him, much as Lincoln did Seward after his initial power grab failed and Lincoln asserted "who was boss." I can't help but think that it was a waste not to use LBJ more.

Bryan wrote: "I think RFK changes over time from the seeds of this compassion.

It would be very difficult dynamic."

I do think RFK's life is indeed one of real personal growth over time.

Steven wrote: "Bryan wrote: "I think RFK changes over time from the seeds of this compassion.

It would be very difficult dynamic."

I do think RFK's life is indeed one of real personal growth over time."

I'm glad Caro gave us a more sensitive side of RFK.

Cheryl wrote: "Why did Johnson lie to the Houston Chronicle congressional correspondent when asked for a comment on a story that was to run about the James Meredith admission to Univ. of Mississippi? The content ..."

Some great questions, Cheryl.

Why did he lie to the reporter? My guess is his ego took control and wanted to feel needed, so he came up with the story. Not a smart move at all.

I think LBJ thought he could shape the VP to suite his needs when he accepted the post, plus it gave him a better station to run for president. However, I don't think he foresaw what would actually happen: get shut out.

I don't know if much would change if LBJ talked with JFK about it. Maybe JFK would provide some assurances, but maybe he wouldn't follow through. Evidence suggests from Caro that JFK didn't make a effort to give LBJ power in his office.

I have to thrown in this quote:

"'Being vice president is like being a cut dog.'" (p. 205)

It took another 15 years for the VP to do more. Carter gave Mondale more power. Here is something:

Although many vice presidents had previously pursued a more substantial role in policy making, Mondale was unique in the fact that he actually achieved it. He had an office in the West Wing, assisted in the selection of cabinet and staff members, and his staff was closely integrated with the President's people. He had substantial access to President Carter and was frequently able to influence policy. He also did not hold the same kind of administrative positions over commissions and special programs that vice presidents were typically assigned. Mondale saw such functions as somewhat ceremonial and detrimental to the overall authority of the vice president and preferred a more general role.
(Source: http://millercenter.org/president/car...)

The passion to fight injustice and not back down was in Robert F. Kennedy’s blood and that side of his personality reminds me a bit of Rudy Giuliani.

Truly, Mark. I do love Joe, Sr. line of how he hates like me. Yikes. Tenacity, indeed. I think people took the abuse by both LBJ and RFK because they were loyal and they felt they were a part of something big.

Mark wrote: "The passion to fight injustice and not back down was in Robert F. Kennedy’s blood and that side of his personality reminds me a bit of Rudy Giuliani."

Yes, now that you mention it, Rudy and Bobby are alike in many ways and both rose to terrible occasions with honor and intelligence. I also think both would have made poor presidents because of their passions. I am not sure if LBJ's issues were passion or overwhelming self doubt.

Indeed, G, it is good to have passion, but to direct it in a constructive way is crucial.

I found it interesting with the impression that JFK used RFK as a buffer to deliver decisions that he himself didn't want to be closely associated with. Bobby was his blocker on the team.
It also was sad to see that JFK wasn't quite wise enough to realize how much LBJ could have helped him . . . instead just made him the butt of insider jokes. You know that adage about holding your friends close . . . and your enemies closer . . .
I would have thought twice about making an enemy of someone who had had so much power . . . and knew where to find it and how to use it.

There is an interesting opinion article in todays NY Times (digital - dated 10/15) by Michael Dobbs in which he references this book and asserts that Caro perpetuates a myth about how close to the blockade/ quarantine the Soviet ships actually came. He expresses specific concern about the 'fog of war'. It chills one to think about the repeated brinks of war we have experienced in the nuclear era. Our leaders must not be goaded.

New York Times article by Michael Dobbs

Thanks so much G for sending us this article.

I noticed this too, because I read Dobbs' book. Caro just reiterates old analysis and did not cover the preparation for war aspect. Part of JFK's plans was to go ahead with the preparation for a Cuban invasion. I didn't know about this part and it did scare me. This was dangerous as Dobbs points out. Plus, Dobbs adds more material previously unknown to scholars such as nuclear missiles aimed at Guantanamo Bay! I didn't know that!

Dobbs' book is not in Caro's bibliography. There is another book he did not include for next week that I will bring up. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe it has to do with something about writing a long book taking years and Dobbs' book came out when Caro finished that part and didn't want to go back. I'm not sure.

For me, it puts LBJ's position in a newer light, a stronger reason for the course of action done by JFK, McNamara, and RFK.

Michael Dobbs

Cheryl wrote: "Pg 212 "Although McCone laid out for Johnson 'in considerable detail' the thinking that had gone into Kennedy's decision, the VP did not agree with it..." He did not favor a blockade of Cuba, but ..."

Thanks, Cheryl. I think you follow Caro's arguments very well. The Kennedy brothers did not trust LBJ. He was a master politician, so if you "let go the leash" what will happen??

LBJ did play a subordinate role in his life, probably with Rayburn and Russell. But, I agree, I think he really does have a hard time being in that role. It isn't LBJ. He is also a pretty insecure person. You notice him begging to RFK why he doesn't like him.

For the first time, I got a little impatient with Caro with all the detail showing Johnson's pitiful lack of power. I got the picture after the first 10 examples. I wanted him to hurry up, so he could finish that final volume. :-)

Then we got to the Cuban Missile Crisis and I was riveted again. Thank you, G, for the Dobbs' article in the New York Times, which just goes to show that you can't believe everything you read (even in Caro).

Still, both JFK and RFK's stature rose in my estimation after reading this chapter. It was refreshing to read about a president who not only read history, but was actually influenced by it. I am referring to Barbara Tuchman's The Guns of August, which emphasized what a huge part miscalculation played in the lead-up to World War I. JFK was determined not to make similar errors.

Both JFK and RFK anguished over the threat of nuclear war and did their best to avoid it - at the same time preparing for a military response if negotiation didn't work. Caro shows that Khrushchev was very reluctant to start a nuclear war, and this was also critical in the final outcome.

On the other hand, Lyndon Johnson and the Joint Chiefs' of Staff thought it was a terrible error to show weakness and wanted to attack right away. I think this fear of "appeasement" was, and is, a constant thread in American foreign policy since World War II. It is one mistake not to learn from history at all - but another to misapply its lessons.


by Barbara W. Tuchman

I love to learn what presidents read, and they usually end up reading political history and biography. It was great timing that he read Tuchman's book.

I think the crisis lowered LBJ's stock in the eyes of JFK a bit further.

Barbara W. Tuchman

It’s nice to know that RFK had a gentler side – at least with kids, his stroke impaired father, and men he considered his intellectual superiors in the Justice Department. He strove to do the “moral” thing, but with other people of that ilk, he felt entitled to define what that was. I was appalled at the multiple CIA plans to assassinate Castro, which had to have the Kennedy brothers' approval, as well as the extreme measures RFK took to pursue his personal vendetta against Hoffa. He seemed to believe the end justifies the means.

As for Johnson, he takes a backseat in this chapter. Surely he also had a gentler, kinder side. Is this covered in the other volumes?

Ann wrote: "It’s nice to know that RFK had a gentler side – at least with kids, his stroke impaired father, and men he considered his intellectual superiors in the Justice Department. He strove to do the “mo..."

It has been a few years since I read them, so someone else might chime in with a fresher perspective, but I don't remember reading about a warmer side of LBJ.

"Operation Mongoose" was the name of the Castro plan, and RFK was in charge. Yeah, it is a bit scary to have your AG being a part of this. You make a good point about defining what the moral code was. It does seem the end justified the means, and you have to say that for RFK, removing Castro was, in part, personal.

No warmer side - not even towards his family? I guess I need to read more.

Bryan, I suppose RFK felt a need to compensate for the Bay of Pigs debacle. He probably worried a lot less about pushing around a small country like Cuba than a major enemy like the Soviet Union, but during this period, wasn't Cuba a client state of the USSR? It seems dangerous to me, let alone against all the rules of international law.

Cheryl,
Thanks for your response. Can you please explain more what you meant by the last sentence - "this persona was his equilibrium."

Ann wrote: "No warmer side - not even towards his family? I guess I need to read more.

Bryan, I suppose RFK felt a need to compensate for the Bay of Pigs debacle. He probably worried a lot less about pushing ..."

Yeah, Castro and the Kennedys built quite a history in a short period of time.

Castro came to power in 1959, so he was on Eisenhower's/CIA's hit list since 1960. He did turn Cuba into a Communist state and got aid from the Soviets. One could argue that if Casto was not marked by the CIA and there was never a Bay of Pigs, he might not have asked for Russian troops and nukes.

Thanks, for the explanation, Cheryl. I wonder how he was able to attract loyal supporters. Sheer manipulation?

Bryan,
Ah, I did not know that Ike had already put Castro on the hit list. That's very interesting.

How to win friends and influence people in the third world, eh?

Here on the west coast . . . the local PBS station will be airing a 50th anniv. special on the Cuban Missle crises on 10/23 . . Tuesday noc.

I don't remember where I read this thought . . . but the idea is that mankind will continue it's warlike behavior until it finally creates a way to destroy it's enemy and itself completely . . . Only then will lesson's about living together be learned . . . the threat of nuclear war gives the impression that we have indeed reached that goal. We have created the weapon.

And every time we have an occasion to be reminded of that . . . (whenever we have a 'nuclear accident' where nuclear reactors are located) it brings us back to that realization.

Great story, Cheryl. Thanks for sharing. The ranch is very isolated.

Cheryl that is a remarkable story - what did you remember about the ranch that you described as "uniquely Texan"? Not being Texan myself I was wondering what you meant and what you saw that would remind you of Texas. I gather from your post that you visited the ranch when LBJ actually lived there - what a treat really.

Did you actually go into the Kennedy compound or did you view that strictly from the outside?

Thank you Cheryl. How was the ranch decorated at the time - was the decor grand or simple, rich or understated. I have never visited the ranch and a home tells a lot about the man. I agree his land holdings were extensive which certainly gave him and his family privacy.

I think that the Kennedy's inquisitiveness came from their background and their upbringing and thirst for knowledge and ideas.

It is interesting that he relied so much on media as his source of information - I alway say beware of the Hidden Persuaders. I guess he did not seek new ideas or stimulation from the outside. And maybe that is why he did not read books.

So the kitchen had more of a commercial - big entertaining feel.

Interesting about the furnishings and about the bed - I guess he was a big man and wanted plenty of space - three color box unit TVs....very odd.

The absence of books is the most troubling I think.

Thanks Cheryl - I feel like I was there with your descriptions.

There is a small sitting room and Lady Bird had books in there. I noticed it was not a great collection. I think this room was set up during the retirement years.

More than likely Bryan - but it was obvious to me that Lyndon was still a smart man and tough minded and maybe that balanced out the other.

I have known many folks who were quite academic, their houses full of books and they lacked common sense and never accomplished anything outside of academia and never could get anything done because they talked everything to death.

So though Lyndon may not have been a book reader which I think is important obviously (to have that balance) - I still feel he was most effective.

It is interesting thought exercise. Does a president do better if he reads more history? Carter loved to read, but there you go...

It is interesting, maybe more realistic, when a president faces a problem or crisis and turns to books for inspiration, or even answers.

It seems LBJ didn't do this so much. You are right, Bentley, it didn't stop him. He seemed to have a talent for thinking something out and acting on it. It might not have been the best solution every time, but something gets done.

I get a sense he draws from his own work experience and his gut to find answers, not necessarily books.

Good point, Bentley.

Maybe we shouldn't be too surprised that LBJ was not a reader considering the lousy education he had - which was a product of his family's poverty.

At the same time, I also think Cheryl has a valid point about the value of reading for political leaders. I think it is particularly important when it comes to foreign affairs and different cultures, subjects which many presidents know little about until they are elected. If they don't read on their own, they are at the mercy of their advisers and their own prejudices.

I think reading also shows you have a interest in context, cultures, and keeping up to date on current issues.

Some folks are street smart and can actually be brilliant individuals - without their liking to read books; they get their learning other ways. I happen to love books myself and am an avid reader - but I have known many more successful folks than I am who are not inclined to pick up a book - it seems a slow way to gather information and they like to get it quick. Just the raw facts. Some even get audio high level summaries of major business books but don't ask them to read the book.

Ann, what you said is also true.

Even though someone reads what another has written doesn't always mean that they are still not at the mercy of their advisers and their own prejudices but I understand the points that Cheryl, you and Bryan are making and of course I do not disagree.

Cheryl, I think he was very curious but got his information in a variety of different ways; and I am not saying that in the norm you are wrong. Being curious is very important.

I think he viewed himself as any powerful man views themself - as being different and that he could be a big help to the young president in his VP role. Obviously JFK had other ideas.

I certainly can see your points - they are all well taken.

As a man who covets power, I think LBJ saw his world as a projection of himself. How can I better the situation through my efforts and presence.

He did misread JFK from campaign to president. It was a "world-view" shift.

Good points, Cheryl. He probably thought he could use those great legislative instincts for the president.

You are correct, instincts are one of the tools in the president's box.

I have to say Cheryl that I agree with Bryan's take as well and what you said about instincts. Instincts can sometimes be invaluable tools but you are right = that should not be the only tool in the president's box.