Ask Stacy Schiff & Jodi Kantor - October 24, 2012 discussion

Welcome to the group! Stacy and Jodi will be answering questions on Wednesday, October 24, 2012. In the meantime if you have a question for them or just want to introduce yourself feel free to do so in this thread.

Actually I've read two of Stacy Schiff's books so far (Saint-Exupéry and Vera), am currently reading a third (A Great Improvisation), and am doing my utmost to resist reading a fourth (Cleopatra) -- in order to finish a blog article on her new kind of biographical writing. Since biographies are a particular favorite of mine -- and intimately related to my own professional work -- I much appreciate this fortuitous opportunity! I'll prepare my questions in advance out of respect for her time. I have not yet read anything of Jodi Kantor's works.

With keen interest, and sincere thanks for your sending the invitation,

Gene

Hi, this question is for Stacy:

When you write about the lineage of historical characters, how do you present the material? It gets very boring very quickly if it is biblical in nature, i.e., Tom, the son of John, had 3 children named Manny, Moe and Jack.

This is for both of them
What surprised did you discover as you researched your latest books, things that you didn't expect to find and did that change you plans for the book in terms of incorporating that material.

Hello I am Tracey. I am almost finished with Stacy Schiff's Cleopatra. My nook has quit on me so I have to wait till the first of the month to finish it, but it is a wonderful read! I love historicals! I have not had the opportunity to read Jodi Kantor's book although I plan to put them on my wishlist. I just started working on my degree so reading is a rare luxury. I will prepare my questions ahead of time to be respect of Stacy and Jodi's time! Thank you

I have only read Cleopatra. I enjoyed it very much and learned quite a bit about Cleopatra and the role Egypt played in the Roman world. For both authors: how do you write factually and make it interesting to read? Also what do you do to minimize your own personal views, preconceptions, and biases. I recently started reading a biography and found it colored with the author's preconceptions and what the author thought could have happened. It seemed to me to have shady historical accuracy. I really liked Cleopatra because Stacy Schiff addressed the concepts people have about Cleopatra. For Jodi Cantor, I haven't read your book, but what do you do to leave your own politics out of your portrayal of the Obamas?

I read Cleopatra and found it very interesting and informative. I now have a new understanding of her role in shaping the Roman Empire at that time. My question to Stacy is how long did it take for you to do the research for this book and what motivated you to start? I regret that I won't be available for the discussion on Wednesday, but am interested in participating in this way.

I thoroughly enjoyed Stacy Schiff's Cleopatra (I have not read The Obamas). Like Marlene, I am similarly interested in understanding how much research (in terms of hours logged or months/years spent) went into Cleopatra. How was the research for this book different than other biographies you've written?
I'd also love to better understand what it's like to write a book about living personalities (the Obamas) versus historical figures as there are likely challenges/risks and opportunities with both.

Cleopatra was an outstanding bio (I haven't read Ms Kantor's book yet), but my question is more procedural. Non-fiction can be frustrating on an e-reader in that the copious notes and graphics are not as excessible as they are in hardcopy. I found myself reading pages of notes after I finished the main contents.

How do you see this having an impact on your writing style and non-fiction in general? Or is this a problem for publishers to address?

My question is for Jodi. Do you think there is still an undercurrent of racism or at least separatism in America in this election? I get that sense when I look at the polls and at the difference between each man's supporters in the red and blue states.

Your books seem dissimilar, but I'm probably missing something. What do you see as the similarities between two world leaders, Cleopatra in the ancient world, and Obama in the 21st century?

What is the nexus between your books?

As a library tech who operates a library for K-9 students, do either of you have any suggestions for great biography series for students to read? What biographies did you read in your youth that inspired you to write biographies?

I also only read Cleopatra and I loved it -I plan to read The Obamas soon- I was finishing another book -how acurarate do you feel this book is given it is not an autobiography?

Cathy wrote: "Hi, this question is for Stacy:

When you write about the lineage of historical characters, how do you present the material? It gets very boring very quickly if it is biblical in nature, i.e., Tom..."

Such a great question. You'll notice that I've never started a book with a subject's lineage; makes me fall asleep as a reader. Generally I've tried to keep it to a minimum. And with Cleopatra I meant to signal to the reader that the point was not keeping the generations straight -- nearly impossible, as everyone has a version of the same name -- but knowing that they intermarry, and tend to murder each other.

Marlene wrote: "As a library tech who operates a library for K-9 students, do either of you have any suggestions for great biography series for students to read? What biographies did you read in your youth that in..."

Do you know the great Landmark series of the l950s and l960s? They're histories more than biographies (The Gold Rush, The FBI, The American Revolution), but still terrific.

Edie wrote: "This is for both of them
What surprised did you discover as you researched your latest books, things that you didn't expect to find and did that change you plans for the book in terms of incorpora..."

Knew nothing of the extraordinary rights of women in Cleopatra's Egypt. Came as a terrific (and happy!) surprise. And put her role in a very different context.

Elizabeth wrote: "I thoroughly enjoyed Stacy Schiff's Cleopatra (I have not read The Obamas). Like Marlene, I am similarly interested in understanding how much research (in terms of hours logged or months/years spen..."

Elizabeth wrote: "I thoroughly enjoyed Stacy Schiff's Cleopatra (I have not read The Obamas). Like Marlene, I am similarly interested in understanding how much research (in terms of hours logged or months/years spen..."

Cleopatra was different in very way from the previous books, as there were no documents. That should have made the research more efficient but it didn't, as I had to fill in the gaping holes. Short answer is about 3 years of research. I'd still be researching it if left to my own devices, of course.

Steve wrote: "Cleopatra was an outstanding bio (I haven't read Ms Kantor's book yet), but my question is more procedural. Non-fiction can be frustrating on an e-reader in that the copious notes and graphics are..."

Your question makes me shudder, as I know you're right, and I'm doing all in my power to pretend it isn't happening. Do you maybe want to talk about climate change instead?

Stacy wrote: "Marlene wrote: "As a library tech who operates a library for K-9 students, do either of you have any suggestions for great biography series for students to read? What biographies did you read in yo..." Hi Marlene and others. My apologies to Stacy, and I would be SO thrilled if Stacy wrote a kid's biography (PLEASE DO!!!!!) but I'm a kid's librarian and can't resist this question. Kathleen Krull and Doreen Rappaport both often write great biographies that appeal to kids: thin and chock full of information. Russell Freedman and Jim Murphy have also done great biographies mostly for older kids. Steve Sheinkin is a fairly new author who is mostly interested in history but has written at least one biography. He is fantastic! I can't suggest series so much. Most of the series today are competent but not really interesting in my opinion. Stacy, I beg you to add to this group! They desperately need fascinating material!!! Sorry for interrupting. I'll make this legitimate by asking Stacy who she is working on now?

Joan wrote: "Stacy wrote: "Marlene wrote: "As a library tech who operates a library for K-9 students, do either of you have any suggestions for great biography series for students to read? What biographies did ..."
A 12-year-old in my house has been saying the same thing for years. I'll pass on your vote. At the moment I'm working on a book that has been done a million times for children: The Salem witch trials.

Hi everyone!
I am a history student, and I have read Stacy Schiff's Cleopatra. It was recommended to me by my favourite Professor, so I obviously knew that it would be brilliant! My question for Stacy is how do you determine to go about your research? Especially on such a popular historical figure. This may seem silly to ask, but what is your first step, just hopping on google and seeing what you can come up with? The process on how to start research is really what I am asking. As a history student, one of the more difficult tasks when writing a research paper is knowing where to start. I think its different for every paper, and it can also depend on who you are researching as well.
Thanks Stacy!

Looking forward to your answering the questions from yesterday. I'll just post it again: Your books seem dissimilar, but I'm probably missing something. What do you see as the similarities between two world leaders, Cleopatra in the ancient world, and Obama in the 21st century?

What is the nexus between your books?

Thanks to Marlene, Margo, and the other moderators for holding this group! My questions are mainly for Stacy (since I've yet to read any of Jodi Kantor's works, though she is encouraged to respond to anything I ask as well). I'll enter each of my questions as a specific Comment to guard against their becoming too rangy.

[I've read Saint-Exupéry, Vera, am currently reading A Great Improvization, and have Cleopatra waiting in the hanger-deck ready to be brought up to the flight deck. I find your works fascinating, transformational, and believe you are revolutionizing "the biography" (and autobiography) as a whole genre of writing.]

Question #1 -- In Saint-Exupéry you give us: A) a portrait of the philosophical poet-pilot by writing about flight; B) an informed treatise on art in writing about his books and the unusual way he had of writing them; C) a narrated, well-researched and articulately rendered story of his life, enough to get a sense of the whole of it that rings true; and, finally, D) a refashioning of biographical writing that is still very much expanding -- rearranging the boundary lines (fiction/non-fiction) in very important ways. I've watched the video of your speech and thoroughly enjoyed it. Is there, perhaps, also an article or two I can go to in order to see the reactions you are undoubtedly encountering in crossing so many major "fault lines" all at once? I don't want to take up too much of your time here, but I'm keenly interested in this in my own work. (Your highly original way of writing has profound ramifications for remolding the whole inside-out vs. outside-in ongoing debate in psychology as a discipline -- adding the cultural as an inevitable aspect of the personal.) So, any sources, links, and so on -- please don't hesitate to send them my way. (Next one or two questions will be coming along shortly.) - Gene

P.S. Because of all four significant strands intertwined in your Saint-Exupéry, whenever a friend comes up to me (knowing the famous writer-pilot features so prominently in my own life and thinking, from my high school days as a student pilot all the way up to now) and says, "Hey, I just read Schiff's Saint-Exupéry." I'm delighted and amused to respond with something like, "Great! Which of the four did you like best?" ;- )

Stacy,

I loved Cleopatra and your lively way of presenting her story. Following up on Elizabeth (message 9) earlier,
much of Cleopatra's story that you related was inferred from contemporary and near-contemporary sources that weren't specifically about Cleopatra. It reminded me of a paleontologist reconstructing a dinosaur when the only piece available was a jawbone!
Can you talk a bit about the decision process that you followed in piecing these other sources into this biography.

My question is for both Jodi and Stacy:

Jodi, you've written about contemporary people, which allows for interviews and interaction with the subjects themselves. Stacy, you've written about interesting historical figures. If you were to switch things up, which historical (Jodi) and contemporary (Stacy) figure would you most like to write about?

Thanks!

Sandra wrote: "Looking forward to your answering the questions from yesterday. I'll just post it again: Your books seem dissimilar, but I'm probably missing something. What do you see as the similarities betwee..."

Will look forward to Jodi's answer, but generally we're talking about two very powerful, often misunderstood women, approached through different lenses given the very different eras.

Sandra wrote: "Your books seem dissimilar, but I'm probably missing something. What do you see as the similarities between two world leaders, Cleopatra in the ancient world, and Obama in the 21st century?



Hello, everyone, from the New York Times newsroom, where I'm stealing a few minutes here and there from my next election story to talk with you. (Don't tell the editors.) Thanks to all of you for coming, and especially to Stacy for joining me. Of all of the rewards of writing a book, one of the sweetest is that some of the authors you've admired forever actually become your allies and friends.

Sandra, I think your question is THE question for today: what in the world do Cleopatra and the Obamas have in common? For starters, Michelle Obama and Cleopatra were both formidable women who were somewhat hidden from us as authors when we started. Cleopatra the human being was trapped under centuries of myth and stereotype. And Michelle Obama, in a way, had obscured herself. In order to go almost overnight from a Chicago hospital executive to first lady, to protect herself from the brutality of political life and build herself up as a political asset to her husband, she and her handlers had edited herself, hiding some of her real views, smoothing away sharp edges, carefully scripting her every moment. The brilliant Harvard-trained lawyer with the forceful critique of the political process became the Mom-in-Chief. (Her maternal warmth is utterly authentic, but it's only part of who she is.) In writing my book, my mission, as some old Chicago friends of the Obamas laid it out to me, was to delve into the Obama White House, and through my reporting, emerge with the real Michelle.

Stacy wrote: "Joan wrote: "Stacy wrote: "Marlene wrote: "As a library tech who operates a library for K-9 students, do either of you have any suggestions for great biography series for students to read? What bio..." True, there is a lot for kids on Salem witch trials. But I've read A great Improvisation on someone who has an incredible amount written about him. You found lots of new info on him, an angle I don't think others have covered. Tell that 12 year old to keep up the pressure on you. For what it is worth, I am of the opinion that often kids' books are harder to write so it needs someone of your talent and perhaps Jodi's as well, although I have yet to enjoy her books.

Jim wrote: "Stacy,

I loved Cleopatra and your lively way of presenting her story. Following up on Elizabeth (message 9) earlier,
much of Cleopatra's story that you related was inferred from contemporary and n..."

Jim wrote: "Stacy,

I loved Cleopatra and your lively way of presenting her story. Following up on Elizabeth (message 9) earlier,
much of Cleopatra's story that you related was inferred from contemporary and n..."

So funny you put it that way: I've said for some time that I felt less like an historian than a paleontologist with CLEOPATRA. Was a long way in before I realized that I needed to go back and figure out who precisely the men who wrote about her were, for whom they were writing, where they were born, what axe they were grinding. After which some were thrown out completely (Lucan, for example). As for the piecing together, a great deal came from descriptions that do not deal directly with Cleopatra herself. Alexandria, for example, is described over and over. So while it's a lost city, while we've no trace of Cleopatra even riding down its streets, we can reconstruct it to a great extent from the fragmentary literary sources.

Jodi wrote: "Sandra wrote: "Your books seem dissimilar, but I'm probably missing something. What do you see as the similarities between two world leaders, Cleopatra in the ancient world, and Obama in the 21st ..."

Thank you, Jodi, your answer sheds some light on the controversy your book engendered, and as always with an intriguing subject, creates more questions and opinions. With both Cleopatra and the First Lady, what is interesting to me is how persistent traditional stereotypes are. Cleopatra beds two Roman leaders and is labeled a slut; fuggedabout her education and commanding presence. Michelle's career, opinions, and executive positions are a potential landmine for a populace that may not understand women in commanding positions. I'm surprised she hasn't been labeled a dyke like Hillary and Eleanor Roosevelt. I've read dozens of Cleopatra descriptions from childhood, but your book, Stacy, placed her within a context that I understand and have experienced. Not the murders, incest, or intrigue, but certainly being a business owner, a mom, and a wife. It's a lot of responsibility and I'm the first to admit that I did it imperfectly. One more thing, to the extent that men are still judged by the woman on their arms, I'm drawn more to the woman who has created something on her own both before, during and after the birth of her children. That aspect of the first lady just makes me respect Obama all the more.

Gene wrote: "Thanks to Marlene, Margo, and the other moderators for holding this group! My questions are mainly for Stacy (since I've yet to read any of Jodi Kantor's works, though she is encouraged to respond ..."

Thanks for all the kind words. Didn't feel I was breaking new ground with Saint-Exupery; did feel I learned a great deal from -- and respected the rules handed down by -- Leon Edel in his WRITING LIVES. He is astute on psychology; you would I think see a great deal of interest in his pages. The biographer is always looking to make sense of the midden of life, while not making too much sense of it, or as someone smarter than I once put it, there has to be for the reader "a willing suspension of hindsight."

Kate wrote: "Hi everyone!
I am a history student, and I have read Stacy Schiff's Cleopatra. It was recommended to me by my favourite Professor, so I obviously knew that it would be brilliant! My question for St..."

I never really know where to start, though as I'm a dinosaur Google is not my first stop. With Cleopatra I read around a bit in the secondary sources, then began systematically devouring everything I knew Cleopatra herself would have read. As you know, the problem when you start is that you don't yet know your questions, which begin to come together only once you've read past the answers. I do a lot of rereading, as I used to do a lot of reinterviewing (not an issue with Cleopatra, alas).

Jimmy wrote: "My question is for Jodi. Do you think there is still an undercurrent of racism or at least separatism in America in this election? I get that sense when I look at the polls and at the difference be..."

Jimmy, you asked this question at the perfect time, because I just finished a big story, which ran on Sunday's front page, about President Obama's handling of the role of first black president: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/21/us/...

The story includes a few references to this, including the meaningful look that the president gives subordinates when opponents say something that sounds racist-- as when Newt Gingrich called Obama a "food stamp president."

But to your question on the extent to which the election is driven by racism, the answer is that we just don't have a precise answer. Still, I think the evidence is pretty interesting and revealing, even though some of it is contradictory. A few disparate but revealing notes:

-- Barack Obama did better among white voters in 2008 than John Kerry did in 2004. Remember that many white voters like the idea of a historic presidency and racial progress. At a time when we can sometimes feel stuck as a country, the idea that a black man can be president makes many people feel we're moving forward.
-- Social scientists are finding ways to look at this question more closely. Check out this study, which says race is such a big influence on how we see Obama that it even impacts how we look at his dog, Bo. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_an...
-- In surveys, a significant number of Tea Party supporters check answers like "too much has been made of the problems of black people."

(This entire discussion is like a moving train of many cars, each of which to come back to afterwards in order to investigate all that it holds later on.)

Stacy wrote: ... "Didn't feel I was breaking new ground with Saint-Exupery; did feel I learned a great deal from -- and respected the rules handed down by -- Leon Edel in his WRITING LIVES. He is astute on psychology; you would I think see a great deal of interest in his pages. The biographer is always looking to make sense of the midden of life, while not making too much sense of it ..."

Thanks for the rich reference resource, Stacy, which I definitely look forward to mining in the future.

Question #2 -- Saint-Exupéry, Vera Nabokov, Benjamin Franklin . . . these were lives seeped in and saturated by literature throughout. STACY: Does your own heavy involvement in "the literary enterprise" come to mark or stamp a life -- and the person or personality it is connected to -- in a way not found in others, regardless of how prominent, famous, or powerful such people may be? What I'm looking for is how you see the core effect the writer's life has upon the soul of those who give their lives to doing that -- if any. That is the tree up which I'm barking here.

And JODI: In reading your comments about Michelle Obama, and the changes wrought in her life because of the immense forces at work within, upon, and surrounding it, and the molding and managing of the image employed to steer and guide it all -- I'd be interested in your thoughts as well.

( For some Context : Marlene Dietrich, for example, wasn't a "literary" figure in any way, but she certainly lived her long life in the image business, sacrificing most everything to making the legend be seen by the world as who she really was. How does one discern -- or even draw the line (if, indeed, it can be drawn at all) between the image a person lives by and the self or being they "really" are? Both of you are bound to have ideas about this in the people you've written about, and, as professionals, about it in your personal lives also. I'm keenly interested in hearing whatever both of you might wish to say about this.)

Well the lovely thing about literature is that it is in itself a version of a life, whether prosaically or prismatically. Saint-Exupery was an intensely autobiographical writer; Franklin was (ironically, and especially in the Autobiography) more slippery. Not sure I would say there is such a thing as a literary stamp on a life, but would say that the intersection of life and literature is a place I'm happy to frequent. And of course everything Nabokov did he did in the name of literature, including adding items to his wife's shopping list.

Stacy wrote:"Well the lovely thing about literature is that it is in itself a version of a life, whether prosaically or prismatically. Saint-Exupery was an intensely autobiographical writer; Franklin was (ironically, and especially in the Autobiography) more slippery. Not sure I would say there is such a thing as a literary stamp on a life, but would say that the intersection of life and literature is a place I'm happy to frequent. And of course everything Nabokov did he did in the name of literature, including adding items to his wife's shopping list.

This has been a rare and wonderfully worthwhile opportunity, Stacy, to hear from you personally on your works and this whole subject. I'm deeply grateful for your giving us all your thoughts and comments here. My final question for you (though I will avail myself of any future opportunities that may arise), will be easy. I know you get asked it many times, but I also believe your answer to it changes as you pose it to yourself and continue turning things over in that admirably ambidextrous mind of yours.

Question #3 -- What figure (or figures) are you thinking of devoting your considerable energies and talents to the next time out? And, if you even have one or two off to the side, I'd be very glad to hear you mention those as well -- particularly if you care to mention what it is that has turned your attention in their direction.

Wishing you a creative life at least as long as that of Czeslaw Milosz, say, or Goethe's, and with the sustained passion of someone like Oriana Fallaci -- I'll keep reading everything you write as long as I have eyes . . .and will switch to audio books after that. ;- )

Gene wrote: "Stacy wrote:"Well the lovely thing about literature is that it is in itself a version of a life, whether prosaically or prismatically. Saint-Exupery was an intensely autobiographical writer; Frankl..."
I'm working on something very different these days. It's a book about the Salem witch trials, which is to say a group portrait, or a portrait of a time and place, rather than a biography. Turning up lots of things that interest and astonish and confound me, and getting very excited about writing this one.

Edie wrote: "This is for both of them
What surprised did you discover as you researched your latest books, things that you didn't expect to find and did that change you plans for the book in terms of incorpora..."

Edie, probably my most striking discovery was what a hard time Michelle Obama had during her first year as first lady. She was projecting such a steadily upbeat image: warm, gracious, fun. And yet she was experiencing a kind of shock-- her word, used later. A lot of her world, including her home, neighborhood and job, had been taken from her. She was so confined she couldn't go for a walk around the neighborhood. The White House is a far weirder, less glamorous environment than the rest of us can see. (I included maps and floorplans in the book, so you can see just how restricted the Obamas' world really is.) Plus the job of first lady is a mystery: is it even a real job? What are these women supposed to do, besides light the annual Christmas tree? The story of her figuring out those questions, and triumphing at a role that initially made her unhappy, is half the storyline of the book.

Rita wrote: "I also only read Cleopatra and I loved it -I plan to read The Obamas soon- I was finishing another book -how acurarate do you feel this book is given it is not an autobiography?"

Hi Rita, is your question for me? I'd say a book like mine-- a serious work of White House reporting, copiously fact-checked before publication-- is both less and more accurate than a political autobiography. On the one hand, it can never have the intimacy of the Obamas revealing their own thoughts and reactions, in their own words. However, political autobiographies are full of spin, artful omission, and legacy-burnishing. Most of them, even good ones like Laura Bush's, are heavy on flattering moments and light on difficult ones. (Bush discusses the early car accident that changed her life in great detail, but she barely mentions the 2000 recount.) In contrast, books like mine include the tough moments, and because numerous sources contribute recollections-- including some very honest reflections by aides-- they can penetrate in ways that many autobiographies can't.

Marlene wrote: "As a library tech who operates a library for K-9 students, do either of you have any suggestions for great biography series for students to read? What biographies did you read in your youth that in..."

Marlene, I will think more about your biographical question, but may I also recommend the White House books by Ellen Emerson White. I read them as a grade schooler, they had a huge impression on me, and I continue to believe they capture things about the White House that non-fiction authors can't.

Thank you Margo and Patrick and everyone else, for the comments and questions. You can always reach me through my website (stacyschiff.com) or on Twitter; happy to continue the conversation.

Stacy, I am too late to the party here, but I just wanted to tell you I LOVED your Cleopatra. Having relatively little in the historical record to go on, you nonetheless wove about as accurate picture of her life and times as is possible to draw. Indirectly, you helped show that strong women have always been with us, and not as mere appendages to men. You are a wonderful historian and storyteller and I look forward to reading more of your work.

Angelo John wrote: "Stacy, I am too late to the party here, but I just wanted to tell you I LOVED your Cleopatra. Having relatively little in the historical record to go on, you nonetheless wove about as accurate pict..."

Thank you, Angelo. Took me a long time to figure out how to excavate her from the myth and mystery, which seem always so much hardier and healthier than the truth. Hope the work isn't obvious on the page.

No, your struggle was invisible to me, the reader (actually, the audiobook listener). I believe at the end of the day all history is "constucted" and that the best historians can do is to recognize their own biases, own up to them, and try not to allow them to contaminate their work. What will emerge, biases acknowledged or not, can not fail to be interpretation and not "truth."

Anyway, thank you for your work and I hope you have continued success.

What are you working on now?

Angelo John wrote: "No, your struggle was invisible to me, the reader (actually, the audiobook listener). I believe at the end of the day all history is "constucted" and that the best historians can do is to recognize..."

Couldn't agree more about the construct of history. Am working on a book about the Salem witch trials -- oddly, even in the court depositions, another case of the "constructed" past.