Brain Pain discussion

Poll Question #2 – Reading Projects for 2013


Please read about the two suggested reading projects for 2013 and then vote for Poll Question #2

Choices:
1 – Magic Realism
2 – The Faust Legend through the Centuries
3 – Both! Magic Realism AND Faust
4 – Neither one. Let’s read more difficult books instead. 

Choice #1: Magic Realism – A look at books that involve magical elements in realistic settings from a number of different countries and time periods. Instead of limiting ourselves to the narrow definition of MR as a 20th century school originating in Latin America, this list looks at a broader range of novels that share MR characteristics.

The Golden Ass: Or Metamorphoses - Lucius Apuleius

Gargantua and Pantagruel – François Rabelais

Gulliver's Travels – Jonathan Swift

One Hundred Years of Solitude – Gabriel Garcia Marquez

The Flounder – Günter Grass

Midnight's Children – Salman Rushdie

The House of the Spirits – Isabel Allende

Nights at the Circus – Angela Carter

The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle – Haruki Murakami

EDIT: MR will also include stories by Jorge Luis Borges and Beloved - Toni Morrison


 
Choice #2: The Faust Legend through the Centuries – The Faust legend in novels, plays and movies, from the 16th thru 20th centuries

Historia von D. Johann Fausten – Anonymous

The Tragical History of Doctor Faustus – Christopher Marlowe

Faust I & II - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Faust (movie) – F.W. Murnau

The Master and Margarita – Mikhail Bulgakov

Doctor Faustus - Thomas Mann

Mephisto (movie) – based on Klaus Mann’s novel

Faustus – David Mamet


Choice #3: Both! Magic Realism AND Faust – Choosing #3 doesn’t necessarily mean you would read all the books from the two projects. Instead, you would like to see both projects available to the group to pick and choose as your reading time and interest allows.

Choice #4: Neither one. Let’s read more difficult books instead – If choices 1 & 2 don’t interest you then another option is to continue on with difficult, formally challenging novels like the ones we read for The Spine 2012.


Please go to Poll Question #2 and cast your vote!

I would love to have the option of choosing books from both the MR and Faust groups. I haven't had the chance to participate in this group as much as I'd hoped over the last 6 months, but that will change in 2013, as certain other projects in my life wind down.

(Frankly, I'm still working on Gravity's Rainbow - I swear, I will make it through by the end of 2012!!)

- Monica

Monicac wrote: "I would love to have the option of choosing books from both the MR and Faust groups. I haven't had the chance to participate in this group as much as I'd hoped over the last 6 months, but that will..."

I'm voting for Choice #3 myself. If there is enough support in the polls for both ideas, we can read ALL THE BOOKS! LOL!

Whatever the results, members are under no obligation to read everything on the list. Pick and choose what fits your own interest. The Faust idea is to look at how the legend changes over the centuries from it's earliest known appearance in 16th century Germany, through the modern day stage play by David Mamet. As cultures change, so do our ideas about demons and damnation.

BTW, if you need support for Gravity's Rainbow, just go into the discussion for the section you're in, and shout for help. Someone will gladly throw you a line - or at least a sedative!

I wish we could revisit some of the books we read this year outside the major readings-I couldn't manage to read both the major texts as well as the other works!

Magic Realism, please! And I too am still working on this year's selections :/

I love both lists. I am hoping to participate in 2013—2012 has been incredibly intense personally - here's to hoping 2013 leads to intense reading (and writing).

I like this group and hope to participate more next year. I have read about half of the MR list, but would be especially interested in reading Gargantua and Pantagruel, The Golden Ass, the Angela Carter book and Wind Up Bird Chronicle. Maybe even a re-read of 100 Years. Definitely interested in the Faust reading too. I read M&M but wouldn't mind revisiting it with the group.

I really want to understand your concept of magic realism, why harry potter isn´t there?! HAHAHAHAHAH I´m partly serious by the way. "A look at books that involve magical elements in realistic settings" So the setting is the bottom line for consideration? The magical element a prerequisite? I think all vampire, werewolves would fit in. Not that I´m promoting this, for all I know I still have to read all books you guys read in the year, so I will go keep myself busy and stop poking around.

Filipe wrote: "I really want to understand your concept of magic realism, why harry potter isn´t there?! HAHAHAHAHAH I´m partly serious by the way. "A look at books that involve magical elements in realistic sett..."

No, Harry Potter wouldn't qualify. My understanding of "magical realism" is that it has to involve gratuitous, fatuous, depthlessly tedious and completely unimaginative departures from reality, tying old people to trees, inducing narcolepsy on mere tactile contact with the book, and prolonged literary onanism. Not that I didn't enjoy Cien Años de Lectura. :)

I'm a great fan of Rabelais and Swift, by the way, and I think it's invidious to consign them to a category defined by Márquez.

SanDy wrote: "Both"

Hope you voted, SanDy. The poll (2) is here, as well as the go/no go poll (1):

http://www.goodreads.com/poll/list/58...

Two other candidates for the MR selection are:

The Famished Road

and

Beloved

if not selected for the Group Reading, they are books to keep in mind for those who have read them.

I'm actually busy doing a poll for one of my groups to measure reading pace, and i'm surprised to find that i'm not as slow as i had thought. I think part of the problem with the BP reads for me has been timing.

Besides that the group has quite a fast pace, sometimes I was simply too busy to get the book read in time to discuss the relevant section where the group was.

..so i've learned my lesson and i think i'll cherry-pick group reads for 2013, but make sure that i read them ahead of time so that i can keep up with the speedy BP-ers when the time comes... :P

..but i love the MR choices, and those included that i have already read is a boon, because i would love discussing them with all the brainy people around here. At least one of them i have read so long ago that a re-read will be just what the doctor ordered.

Traveller wrote: "I'm actually busy doing a poll for one of my groups to measure reading pace, and i'm surprised to find that i'm not as slow as i had thought. I think part of the problem with the BP reads for me h..."

Yes, I have read several (100 years, Rabelais, Rushdie).. not clear which ones I am willing to reread...

Filipe wrote: "I really want to understand your concept of magic realism, why harry potter isn´t there?! HAHAHAHAHAH I´m partly serious by the way. "A look at books that involve magical elements in realistic sett..."

Hi Filipe! Good to hear from you again.

You're right, I didn't explain my idea very well, so I'm going to borrow this from wikipedia:

Magic realism or magical realism is an aesthetic style or genre of fiction in which magical elements blend with the real world. The story explains these magical elements as real occurrences, presented in a straightforward manner that places the "real" and the "fantastic" in the same stream of thought.

With that basic definition, you could include The Odyssey, and thousands of other books written over the centuries. On the list I included a man who is transformed into a donkey in Apuleius, a giant and his son in Rabelais, a traveler who finds people of many sizes and forms in Swift, and so on. What links these books together for me is that these fantastical, or magical elements allow the authors to make subtle, or not so subtle commentaries about the world they live in. Instead of coming right out and saying "The king is a fink!" (and maybe ending up in prison or dead), the writers can hide their criticism and satire under the veil of magic. I'm hoping that as we go through the various time periods and different cultures of these books, we will discover links and commonalities in what they attempt and achieve.

And so no, H.P. and the vampires don't really fit my thinking on this type of literature!

Mark wrote: " My understanding of "magical realism" is that it has to involve gratuitous, fatuous, depthlessly tedious and completely unimaginative departures from reality, tying old people to trees, inducing narcolepsy on mere tactile contact with the book, and prolonged literary onanism..."

I'm guessing you might not be an MR fan....

Jim wrote: "Mark wrote: " My understanding of "magical realism" is that it has to involve gratuitous, fatuous, depthlessly tedious and completely unimaginative departures from reality, tying old people to tree..."

Not as it's usually construed, anyway, with Márquez as subject zero. I do love Rabelais, Rushdie and Carter, but I think they fail to succumb to the criteria established by taking Márquez and Allende as exemplary. Maybe it's a taxonomic problem, since I have no problem with most of the writers who've been identified, ex post facto, as dabbling in a genre that didn't exist as of when they wrote. I really only take exception to pretentious, uninspired mediocrity masquerading as a "vision." And no, I'm fluent in Spanish, so my problem has nothing to do with Márquez's failure to translate.

Mark wrote: "Not as it's usually construed, anyway, with Márquez as subject zero..."

I must confess that I read Marquez so many years ago I can't remember much. I did like The Autumn of the Patriarch but can't remember what I thought of 100 Years.

It's true, sometimes critical labels, genres, schools, and so on, are drawn around writers for somewhat suspect purposes. I hope you'll consider joining in the discussions when we read Swift and Rabelais and whichever other titles interest you.

Mark wrote: "Jim wrote: "Mark wrote: " My understanding of "magical realism" is that it has to involve gratuitous, fatuous, depthlessly tedious and completely unimaginative departures from reality, tying old pe..."

I do not think Márquez and Allende are on the same category.

Oddly, by the way, I've noticed that Carlos Fuentes has been tainted, retroactively, with accusations of "magical realism." I actually *loathed* LA MUERTE DE ARTEMIO CRUZ, but it had nothing to do with any misperception on my part that Fuentes' realism was "magical" -- and not unrelentingly true-to-life, gritty and revulsive. (I'm not sure what the etiquette is on this group, so I'll forbear to link to my review, but I did think that Fuentes was talented and gave the book three stars.) I think "magical realism" has become a fashion-flavor-of-the-decade, beloved of critics, and I'd like to see the whole category (under that unfortunate "rubric") banished from intelligent discourse.

Kalliope wrote: "Mark wrote: "Jim wrote: "Mark wrote: " My understanding of "magical realism" is that it has to involve gratuitous, fatuous, depthlessly tedious and completely unimaginative departures from reality,..."

You have a point, Kalliope, and I don't really think so, either. Like Tolstoy's "unhappy families," each is relentlessly tedious in his/her own, idiosyncratic way. The fault is in the critics, who have, for reasons mostly surpassing understanding (except with respect to La casa de los espíritus), chosen to identify Allende's (independently uninspired) work with Márquez school of "magical realism."

Jim wrote: "Mark wrote: "Not as it's usually construed, anyway, with Márquez as subject zero..."

I must confess that I read Marquez so many years ago I can't remember much. I did like The Autumn of the Patria..."

Thanks, Jim, I'll certainly do that if Rabelais is the subject. Now, there was an actual genius, seven orders of magnitude more brilliant than Márquez on his best day.

I'm voting for both. Lots of good choices on both lists.

I really want to work on the Faust list because Faust is everywhere from Goethe to Marlowe to Mann to Park Avenue 666 (Me and the misses like our TV, but I know better you Fantasy Island-wannabe ripoff). I have yet to tackle the actual story of Faust and given its popularity in our own culture, seems worth taking a serious critical survey of Faust from its origins to the modern day.

Magical realism seems to rub off on all sorts of other contemporary genres and I would find it interesting to compare with some of our other readings. And I agree with a couple of others that I'm probably going to mix in the books I want to read as well. I'm dying to get to The Recognitions, at some point.

Jim wrote: "Filipe wrote: "I really want to understand your concept of magic realism, why harry potter isn´t there?! HAHAHAHAHAH I´m partly serious by the way. "A look at books that involve magical elements in..."

Thanks, Jim. Soon enough I will be able to flood BP with my crap.

I still think the definition you just borrowed is still as wide open as any that would include H.P. and vampires. But I do get your point, magic and fantastical creatures as smokescreen for sociopolitical criticism rather than main features by themselves. Kafka would enter, right?

Mark wrote: "Oddly, by the way, I've noticed that Carlos Fuentes has been tainted, retroactively, with accusations of "magical realism." I actually *loathed* LA MUERTE DE ARTEMIO CRUZ, but it had nothing to do..."

My favorite writer Clarice Lispector was accused of magic realism while she was still alive, and I´ve read all her works and there isn´t any sign of magic, fantastical creatures and/or disguised sociopolitical criticism, when she does sociopolitical criticism is always very open in an essay kind of way.

"My favorite writer Clarice Lispector was accused of magic realism while she was still alive..."
I think that's probably because of "A Paixão Segundo G.H," which I took to be psychological horror rather than "magical realism." Will it now suffice to write about fear of insects? Nobody accuses Kafka of "magical realism." Or at least, I hope not.

#3 would be fun!

Marian wrote: "#3 would be fun!"

Agreed! If there are enough votes for #3, it's a go!

In the spirit of "magical realism," I'm going to vote for #537.

Faust AND Magical Realism!!!!!

Barbara wrote: "Faust AND Magical Realism!!!!!"

Ditto. And #537.

Has anyone (who reads German, and is sufficiently ancient to remember roadside rhymes) ever noticed that the meter of (Goethe's) Faust is identically that of the old Burma Shave ads? I am tempted to wonder if Faust's deal wasn't with Satan, but with Madison Avenue (or if the two are separate and distinct).

- "Why, this is Texas, nor am I out of it."

Mark wrote: "Has anyone (who reads German, and is sufficiently ancient to remember roadside rhymes) ever noticed that the meter of (Goethe's) Faust is identically that of the old Burma Shave ads? I am tempted ..."

Now That's funny!! Okay someone on BP with the right skill set has to make a Faust/Burma Shave mash-up video and post it on youtube. Maybe we can cast Tom Waits for vocals and stage it as a kind of Kurt Weill/Bertolt Brecht meets Dust Bowl America conglomeration....

Can we add The Satanic Verses to the Magical Realism list??

I see that Midnight's Children is already on the list, and I'd love to read that too, but I've been meaning to read Satanic Verses for a long time.

Anyway, I think Salman Rushdie is worthy of getting two books on a Magical Realism list!!!! After all, his life was (and I believe still is) on the line because of Satanic Verses!!!

Jim wrote: "Mark wrote: "Has anyone (who reads German, and is sufficiently ancient to remember roadside rhymes) ever noticed that the meter of (Goethe's) Faust is identically that of the old Burma Shave ads? ..."

Da steh ich nun, ich armer Tor! / And in this vale, of toil and sin.
Und bin so klug als wie zuvor. / Your head grows bald, but not your chin.
Burma Shave / Burma Shave.

Yes, get Tom Waits! I'll do the libretto, and the video can be filmed on a succession of roadside signs with cartoon demons perched atop. :)

Hey, is there some reason we haven't read Finnegans Wake, Quantum Entanglement and Omkring Sprogteoriens Grundlaeggelse with a complete explication of Gödel's Theorem, preferably in Inuit, while standing on our heads?

Mark wrote:
"Da steh ich nun, ich armer Tor! / And in this vale, of toil and sin.
Und bin so klug als wie zuvor. / Your head grows bald, but not your chin.
Burma Shave / Burma Shave.
..."

And THAT'S why I love this group.

Barbara wrote: "Anyway, I think Salman Rushdie is worthy of getting two books on a Magical Realism list!!!! After all, his life was (and I believe still is) on the line because of Satanic Verses!!! ..."

Wonder if Joseph Anton, Rushdie's memoir of those years of active persecution and the continuing aftermath can ever make it to the top of my TBR. Hopefully, my library system will have an audio version that I can listen to. (Out right now, but there are copies! Good.)

Mark wrote: "Hey, is there some reason we haven't read Finnegans Wake, Quantum Entanglement and Omkring Sprogteoriens Grundlaeggelse with a complete explication of Gödel's Theorem, preferably in Inuit, while st..."

I've got that penciled in for 2014...

Jim wrote: "Poll Question #2 – Reading Projects for 2013


Please read about the two suggested reading projects for 2013 and then vote for Poll Question #2

Choices:
1 – Magic Realism
2 – The Faust Legend thr..."

Hm, I've read everything on the magic realism list except the Günter Grass book, my thoughts on the list are a bit conflicted. Most of all, I would replace Allende's book with Toni Morrison's Beloved (or something else) because The House of the Spirits is a rather terrible obvious rip off of One Hundred Years of Solitude (although the writer keeps insisting that she wasn't thinking of Garcia Marquez's book when she wrote hers, his brand of magic realism was so popular in the 70s and 80s and their books are so similar, it's just absurd to claim she didn't borrow a lot from him). Otherwise, I think the list would benefit from some genre diversity - all the texts could be loosely defined as novels (and a lot of them are fairly long) maybe it could include some shorter texts - especially fairy / folk tale collections, but Borges was also a major inspiration especially for South American MR writers and some of his short stories could be included. (I've also enjoyed Angela Carter's The Bloody Chamber a lot more than Night At The Circus.)

But, as a term / genre, magical realism developed in the 20s and 30s long before Marquez had published anything, I think it's dangerous to associate it too much with him.

Andreea wrote: "Jim wrote: "Poll Question #2 – Reading Projects for 2013


Please read about the two suggested reading projects for 2013 and then vote for Poll Question #2

Choices:
1 – Magic Realism
2 – The Faus..."

I fully agree with you regarding Allende vs García-Márquez. I am speaking out of prejudice, since I have not read her, and do not plan to. But it is well known that she was just riding the GM wave started 20 years before.

I also agree that Beloved is a wonderful candidate. I wrote on this in my review of The Famished Road, which could be another candidate, although people's opinions on that one are rather split.

I would also be interested in going back in time to the 20s and 30s.

So, Andreea, I basically second your opinion.

Andreea wrote: but Borges was also a major inspiration especially for South American MR writers and some of his short stories could be included."

Dios mio! How did I forget to put Borges on the list?? He was the inspiration for the MR idea in the first place.

I had Beloved in mind, so why not add her back in. Allende is worth a read, so she should stay. If you had to read her, what would you choose as an alternate book?

Ellie wrote: "I wish we could revisit some of the books we read this year outside the major readings-I couldn't manage to read both the major texts as well as the other works!"

I'm always hopeful that members will revive conversations from earlier parts of the year. Maybe we can formalize it a bit and call it a "re-read" or "revisit". Of the books you missed, which one are you most interested in? Let me know here or send me a message and we can make a plan. I'm sure there are other members who would join you for a book(s) you'd like to revisit.

Jim wrote: "Ellie wrote: "I wish we could revisit some of the books we read this year outside the major readings-I couldn't manage to read both the major texts as well as the other works!"

I'm always hopeful ..."

Good idea. I am a newcomer into this group, so would not mind joining in the second round...

Lily wrote: "Barbara wrote: "Satanic Verses!!!..."
Lily wrote: "Wonder if Joseph Anton, Rushdie's memoir of those years of active persecution and the continuing aftermath can ever make it to the top of my TBR.

Lily, please let me know when you're going to read Joseph Anton. I'd love to read it, so maybe we can read it at the same time and discuss it together. (Although it may be at least a month or so before I can add another book to my "currently reading" list.)

I am juggling SO MANY BOOKS right now, but I'm going to have to pick a few to "set aside" for a while so I can focus on Infinite Jest and The Divine Comedy. I think switching back and forth between Infinite Jest and Dante is fine, because there really aren't any chances of confusing characters or story lines with those two!!!

Have you read Satanic Verses?? I'm wondering if it's important to read Satanic Verses prior to reading Joseph Anton.

I've posted in this thread (message #34 -- the message you responded to), asking if we can read The Satanic Verses in addition to Midnight's Children, but you're the only person who commented on my post.

In terms of the Magical Realism choices, I can understand why Jim and the group would only want to read one book per author, which may be the reason my post on Satanic Verses was "skipped over."

BUT, Jim and you and the other members of the group always come up with various "creative ideas" so maybe we can have a "Rushdie Month" in which we could read Satanic Verses, Midnight's Children, and the new memoir -- Joseph Anton. (Actually, it would take more than a month to read all three, but I think all three could be read in two months..... maybe.)

Just a thought/suggestion.

I'm also going to want to read a lot of the Faust books, (definitely Marlowe's, definitely Goethe's, and most likely Master and Margarita and Thomas Mann's Faustus.)

SO MANY BOOKS, SO LITTLE TIME!!!!!

Barbara wrote: "BUT, Jim and you and the other members of the group always come up with various "creative ideas" so maybe we can have a "Rushdie Month" in which we could read Satanic Verses, Midnight's Children, and the new memoir -- Joseph Anton. (Actually, it would take more than a month to read all three, but I think all three could be read in two months..... maybe.)..."

Time for an intervention Barbara! Step away from the bookcase. We're doing this for your own good! LOL!

hahaha, Jim!!! Yes, I do need interventions from time to time.

Yes, Midnight's Children definitely got better reviews than Satanic Verses (so when you were picking a Rushdie book for the Magical Realism list, I completely understand why Midnight's Children would come to mind instead of Satanic Verses.) BUT, I've been wanting to read Satanic Verses for SO LONG.

Well, maybe if there IS room in the schedule at some point......

By the way, Jim, we never finished The Oresteia!!!! I've posted in the Libation Bearer's thread a few times, but it seems as though everyone has forgotten The Oresteia!!!

Maybe we can finish it sometime in 2013.

SO, I thought of a name for the "interim" reads (you know, the "easier" but great works, such as The Oresteia, and maybe one (JUST ONE) play of Euripides and/or Sophocles, or a short poem here and there, which we can read when we need a break from the "painful Brain Pain books") -- how about "Pain Killers" ????? (Or, the interim books could be called "Vicodin" or "Morphine" but I think a more generalized "Pain Killers" is a better name for the "interim" books (IF you were planning on HAVING interim, "give our brains a two week break" reads!!!)

OK, OK, I'm STEPPING AWAY FROM THE BOOKCASE NOW!!!! I will not make anymore suggestions until I hit page 600 of Infinite Jest. How's that???

Jim wrote: "...Allende... If you had to read her, what would you choose as an alternate book? 


If I had to read Allende (again), I would choose Oedipus' solution.

Your intervention didn't work yet, Jim. I'll have to enroll into a Brain Pain Twelve Step Program.

Just two more "interim" / "Pain Killer" suggestions --
Waiting for Godot and No Exit -- both are very quick reads which can lead to LOTS of great discussions. OH, and Ibsen is always great -- Hedda Gabler and A Doll's House

OK, you won't be hearing from me for a while now (seriously) -- I have too much work to get back to.

Barbara wrote: "Your intervention didn't work yet, Jim. I'll have to enroll into a Brain Pain Twelve Step Program.

Just two more "interim" / "Pain Killer" suggestions --
Waiting for Godot and No Exit -- both are..."

Your suggestions are all very interesting (I've read Waiting for Godot and watched Hedda Gabler at our local theatre). It would do the group good to have some short texts from time to time. Maybe then more members would the discussions.

Iselin wrote: "Your suggestions are all very interesting (I've read Waiting for Godot and watched Hedda Gabler at our local theatre). It would do the group good to have some short texts from time to time. Maybe then more members would the discussions..."

But then where would the pain come in?

For the Faust project, there are 3 stage plays, 2 movies, and only 2 novels of 360 and 535 pages, respectively, so relatively short stuff compared to 2012.

For the Magic Realism, most of the books are 400 pages or less, only two are more than 500 pages, and the longest is the Murakami at 611 pages, so not too terribly long. The Borges will be some of his short stories, which are fairly quick reads.

There will also be an author spotlight project later in the year which will include fairly short books as well.