Language & Grammar discussion

If you can insert “by zombies” after the verb, you have passive voice.

She was killed [by zombies.]” <—- Makes sense? Yes. It's passive voice.

“Zombies killed [by zombies] her.” <—- Makes sense? No. It's active voice.

LOVE that rule. It seems a great way to teach eighth graders (and those of us that think like them)

Stephen wrote: "LOVE that rule. It seems a great way to teach eighth graders (and those of us that think like them)"

I totally agree with you about thinking like an eighth grader. I will remember this rule.

What's passive voice again.....;->

I think [by zombies] like an 8th grader for a living.

Heehee.....I think like a 5th grader so there we go!

Newengland wrote: "I think [by zombies] like an 8th grader for a living." Talk about things that want to eat your brains... Of course I mean Zombies, not 8th graders.

Are zombies even fussy about what they eat? I should have named my dog Zombie. Maybe next one.

Oh my god, I'm dying! I like that rule...

Great rule! I know people who think any sentence with "was" is passive, like "I was planting roses."

I was planting roses by zombies makes no sense. Finally an easy way to defend the past progressive!

If all teachers were as creative, the English language would be consistent. All things considered, "consistent" is a big compliment.

Newengland: Zombies are fairly fussy about what they eat. In the most liberal of documents (“movies” if you will) they eat flesh. The conservative documents state they eat brains specifically. Albeit, they eat flesh in most modern instances.

Excellent way to spot check. My main beta reader will be so happy. lol.

Fussy zombies? That might just save me come the apocalypse.

Go see the Wizard of Oz NE, he can provide brains, heart, courage and home all in one fell swoop.

One fell swoop. That's Shakespeare!

I always thought it was one swell foop.

There's a word for that problem. Too bad I can't recall it.

Spoonerism

I'm thinking dyslexia. It's a spelling problem, kind of like Aaron had, no?

Newengland wrote: "I'm thinking dyslexia. It's a spelling problem, kind of like Aaron had, no?"

Well that too, but it's actually a lot more because it also affects reading.

I thought he stuttered. So much for what I know.

My computer always complains if I use a passive, underlining it in a sickly green.

Anthony D wrote: "My computer always complains if I use a passive, underlining it in a sickly green."

Which is just one reason why it's best to turn the grammar check off. ;)

Tytti wrote: "Newengland wrote: "I'm thinking dyslexia. It's a spelling problem, kind of like Aaron had, no?"

Well that too, but it's actually a lot more because it also affects reading."

Dysgraphia is the writing version of dylexia. Some people have both.I can spell anything out loud, correctly, but I have never typed the word "Thanks" it's always "thnaks". And is "nad", here is "hree". I invert b'and d's while writing by hand, and even scramble the spaces between words into the middles of them. Used to do long division with the little symbol upsdie-down. I mean ipside, I mean UPSIDE down. Phew. And I'm a writer!?

Upsdie down? I love it.

Cecily wrote: "- - -which is just one reason why it's best to turn the grammar check off. ;)"
I always take advice, from computers and from others. But then, I make my own mind up.

I once typed "stupid is as stupid does" in a document, and my grammar checker suggested "stupid is an as stupid doe." Personally, I think mine was better. Besides, I wasn't aware that female deer were particularly stupid

Deer aren't terribly clever. They don't look up for one thing, which is why hunters build stands in trees (though some hunters aren't terribly clever, either).

I'm not a fan of grammar check. I'm always telling myself it was made by some techie nerd, not an English prof. Techie nerds have little patience for subtleties of language....

Newengland wrote: "I'm not a fan of grammar check. I'm always telling myself it was made by some techie nerd, not an English prof. Techie nerds have little patience for subtleties of language..."

Exactly. Context is all, and that's where automated things really fail.

Cecily wrote: "Newengland wrote: "I'm not a fan of grammar check. I'm always telling myself it was made by some techie nerd, not an English prof. Techie nerds have little patience for subtleties of language..."

My pet peeve is Finnish and finish. They don't capitelize other verbs so why they can't notice that mistake.

And I do think it's weird if I can notice the wrong words but native speakers can't. For some reason I have noticed more people writing 'of' instead of 'have'. ("I would of done something...") Took me a while to realize what that meant.

Tytti wrote: "For some reason I have noticed more people writing 'of' instead of 'have'. ("I would of done something...") Took me a while to realize what that meant.
"

It comes from mishearing the contraction "I would've..."

Ruth wrote: "It comes from mishearing the contraction "I would've..." "

Yes, I know, but don't they teach writing and grammar in school? That would seem pretty basic stuff.

The one that bugs me is "try and" instead of "try to." People say this a lot, but it bugs me. "I'm going to try and write a novel." No...you're going to try TO write a novel. Trying and Writing aren't serial verbs in this context. I know I'm nit-picking, but we're all entitled to our pet peeves. :)

Dialect and the vernacular are like poetic licenses. Safe at the plate!

Tytti wrote: "Ruth wrote: "but don't they teach writing and grammar in school?"

I've often thought that becoming aware of grammatical rules comes through learning foreign languages, rather than being taught English. I certainly learned about grammar by studying Latin and German. English lessons on the topic I found rather puzzling.

Anthony D wrote: "Tytti wrote: "Ruth wrote: "but don't they teach writing and grammar in school?"

I've often thought that becoming aware of grammatical rules comes through learning foreign languages, rather than be..."

I never really learned much English grammar until I started learning a foreign language. I was a bookworm with a good seat of the pants feel for English grammar so I never paid much attention to grammar lessons.

Anthony D wrote: "I've often thought that becoming aware of grammatical rules comes through learning foreign languages, rather than being taught English."

I have wondered that. But I started learning English about 1.5 years later I learned how to read and write, so it's difficult to say. Finnish is also so different that I don't think it would help much.

But I don't English is that difficult, at least the normal, everyday language. Of course sometimes I can tell something is wrong with the spelling but don't know what. The word just looks wrong.

Cecily wrote: "Anthony D wrote: "My computer always complains if I use a passive, underlining it in a sickly green."

Which is just one reason why it's best to turn the grammar check off. ;)"

Or, ignore. :)

I grew up in an area where English was not a first language for many people. I benefited from the way in which English grammar was taught.

I think one of the problems is that English grammar isn't usually taught at the college level. All I had in college is a list of things not to do.
I've known people in their fifties who think that you put a comma when there's a little space, a semicolon when there's a middle-size space and a period when there's a big space. Sort-of like the 3 Bears guide to punctuation. It reminded me of when I was in the third grade and we were taught that you put a comma when there's a little pause, etc.
And where do you see spaces and pauses?
My spell check is insane.
If I write:
Or something like that.

The computer changes it to:
Or something likes that.
***
What the grammar check doesn’t realize is that like is not a verb here.
(I just now found out that, when the computer checks the grammar of “Or something likes that” it advises me to change “likes” to “like.”)
And there are people who blindly follow these checks!

Grammatical rules are insane, though.

You'd think, after a whole lifetime of reading, writing, and speaking English, you'd know the right way to use punctuation.

Then you reach AP English and you're told that:
--dashes and commas are not interchangable (When you use a pair of dashes--like this--it's supposed to be for emphasis and not just for making a parenthetical.)
--colons can only be used to precede a list
--semicolons have a bunch of rules that no one but our teacher actually understands

And it's all too complicated. No wonder my generation is saying goodbye to traditional writing rules.

Lists are only ONE function of a colon. I hope your AP English teacher knows as much. Please, God.

As for the semicolon, he's just a period between chummy sentences, related somehow in subject matter. You can also use him in place of the comma when you have a long list which ITSELF includes commas:

I like running and swimming; picnics, fireworks, and apple pie; and finally a good night's rest on the Fourth of July.

Ruth wrote: "If you can insert “by zombies” after the verb, you have passive voice.

She was killed [by zombies.]” <—- Makes sense? Yes. It's passive voice.

“Zombies killed [by zombies] her.” <—- Makes sense? ..."

Speaking of not teaching grammar on the college level, why not simply explain what active and passive voice mean? I think the people here are capable of understanding it.

An active voice sentence is one in which the subject performs the action.

Ruth wrote the message.
"wrote" is the verb.
"Ruth" is the subject.
Ruth did the writing--active voice.

A passive voice sentence is one in which the subject is acted upon.
The message was written.
"was written" is the verb.
"The message" is the subject.
The message is what is being written--passive voice.

Sure, adding "by zombies" helps you to see whether it's active or passive voice, even if you're only eight years old. But we're adults and I think it would help in the long run if people actually understood the concepts.

✿Lilac✿ wrote: "Grammatical rules are insane, though.

You'd think, after a whole lifetime of reading, writing, and speaking English, you'd know the right way to use punctuation.

Then you reach AP English and y..."

I don't think grammar rules are insane. The problem comes from not realizing that grammar isn't intended to make sense. It's just intended as a guide to how educated native speakers use their language with the implied suggestion that, if you want to make people think you've got an education, you should use the language that way, too.

People wrote first and then the linguists came along and made rules based on that.

By the way, this -- is a pair of hyphens, not a pair of dashes. The long one, which I can't find on my computer right now (My computer changes the position of things on the keyboard every once in a while. No, I'm not crazy. My computer is a cheap piece of junk.), back in the olden days when people used typewriters, was indicated by two hyphens.

Single hyphens are used to "attach" meanings. For example 10-year-old boy tells us that the boy is 10 years old, that is, it's one adjective made up of three words.