The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of November 5, 2012 - November 11, 2012, we are reading Chapter Two of From the Jaws of Defeat.

The second week's reading assignment is:

WEEK TWO: November 5, 2012 - November 11, 2012

2. From the Jaws of Defeat - (63 - 90)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on October 29th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. This weekly thread will be opened up on or before November 5th.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bentley will be moderating this discussion.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Daniel Walker Howe

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS ARE EXTREMELY DENSE SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

TOC and the Syllabus

The following is a link to the table of contents for the book and the weekly syllabus:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Book as a Whole Thread

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

by Daniel Walker Howe

Folks, unfortunately I was in the eye of the storm Sandy living in the metro New York City/New Jersey area and I have incurred major damage to my home and property and was evacuated. I am now safe in an hotel until I can sort things out, get the trees removed from my house and repair/rebuild, etc. It has been for the lack of a better word - apocalyptic.

Bentley,

Stay safe and take care of your family and personal needs and I hope that you and your neighbors and community rebuild and regroup as quickly and efficiently as possible.

As someone who lives in a region (SE Texas) more used to the wrath of hurricanes that God hath wrought, I know that victims of natural disasters can and do rebuild and life will eventually return to a new normal for you and your neighbors at some point.

Please let us know if there is anything we History Book Club members can do to help.

So sorry to learn that you were in the crosshairs, Bentley. I am glad you are in a safe place now, and extend my wishes for prompt and generous insurance adjustment, and a quick and incident-free restoration.

Let me echo the others .... stay safe and I hope you get back home quickly

Bentley, do take care, and I wish you the best in getting back home.

so sorry to hear of your difficulties Bentley, as a long-time resident of the Florida Keys and a victim of Wilma (extensive flooding with houses and cars submerged) I understand and have the deepest sympathies with your current situation. As reiterated above if there is anything we can do...

I am so sorry to read about the storm damage. What a nightmare! Take care.

In regards to Chapter 2 - I was most interested to learn that Madison and Monroe's intention was, at all costs, to avoid multi-party politics and to foster an all-inclusive governmental voice (minus the disenfranchised -women and non-white males) Which of course given recent events is quite intriguing indeed.

And thank all of you for the well-wishes. I know Bentley appreciates it.

We will keep the threads going while he is gone, so feel free to keep posting while you are reading :-).

Yes, please let us know what we can do.

I live in the southern Hudson Valley, so I lost lights for 3 days and off-line until that Saturday; I saw the photos and videos of the surge and flood damage I had heard described on the radio and it was indeed so awful. I grew up in SE Massachusetts during its hurricane country time, so I know and have clear memories of what it is like to be thrown out of any semblance of a normal life for many days, and how fortunate I was this time.

Bentley, do take care, and I hope you can get back to normal quickly.

Interested in how other people may see this.

Neither a complaint nor a praise, I do not see any references to primary source materials or analysis thereof by the author.

It gives the impression that he is writing based on what he found in other people's books. The notes seem to support this as they point never to archives, but always to other books.

Again, to be clear, I am not playing the scholar here, but testing a possible observation.

yes - I agree Paul, very good point. Utilization of primary sources is a pretty basic requirement of best scholarship really...when relying primarily upon secondary sources you have no idea of how many and whose filters are being superimposed upon the past. As readers too, we are more removed from the primary material, and thus from the voices of the inhabitants of the time - and how else can provide context so brilliantly than those who actually lived in 1818? Personally (with a bachelors in history) I would regard this is a pretty serious transgression. Not to say that I am not enjoying the work, and I am certainly learning a great deal - but undermines the scholarship claim at the basis of it I think.

Hi Pj. Maybe it comes with the territory when trying to do something of this breadth - you just do not have the 6 lifetimes it takes to go deep on anything in terms of time. Yes, I am enjoying and learning as well, and being aware as much as possible at the same time. :) Nice to meet you, Paul

Concerning Howe's use of footnotes: There are two kinds of scholarly history writing. The first are detailed, in-depth studies of small width that are based on primary, archival research. These are usually read only by specialists in the field and are published many times by university presses. The second is the grand systhesis of all of the recent and classic studes of the first type. These tend to be much more readable and appeal to the public at large. Only incidentally do the second type refer to archive materials and then only usually because the areas under discussion are in the author's special area where he has done the archival research to publish his own studies of the fist type. It the the second kind of history that win Pulitzer Prizes because of their breadth and readability.

Pj wrote: "In regards to Chapter 2 - I was most interested to learn that Madison and Monroe's intention was, at all costs, to avoid multi-party politics and to foster an all-inclusive governmental voice (minu..."

Just an observation about their want for an all inclusive governmental voice. I think we should remember these were folks who began in politics essentaill as rebels.

And I think we should also remember that the war of 1812 - only 30 years after the end of the Revolutionary war - reminded us all that this new form of governemnt was under real tests.

And Pj - regarding your msg 16 I agree - I think that bringing this together is a different kind of accomplishment than primary research - a work of this time span and scope would be hard to base on new primary research - maybe something like the Quincy Adams biography

Paul C. Nagel

which was built around a new diary and one person could take that view but even then that only gave a bit of a different perspecitive I imagine.

I think, so far, Howe is doing very well.

Thanks, Vince. You don't need a author photo link if there is none:

Paul C. Nagel

I have always felt like Madison was one of our best presidents, despite his flaws and inconsistencies. I have been mulling over his second national bank and his flip-flop on transportation for a couple days. I think that his involvement in the War of 1812 and his policies coming out of the war are an extension of an internal battle between liberty and security that all Americans wrestled with from the Articles of Confederation up until the Civil War.

Classical liberal philosophy dominated rhetoric and the majority of early Americans favored local or state-level rule to national rule, even opposing military centralization during times of war. However, there was always the concern that the British Empire and other European governments had too much power and would threaten our freedoms if we didn't have a strong central government (I suppose that debate continues today regarding the "War on Terror"). The war pushed Madison more toward favoring centralization, but when it came down to the last days of his presidency, the constitutionalist in him couldn't pull the trigger on the Bonus Bill.

I feel like Madison found a healthy balance between liberty and security, at least compared to most other presidents. Randolph Bourne said that "War is the health of the state." Governments always grow when they go to war. While Madison allowed the War of 1812 to influence some growth of the federal government, I don't think you could name another significant war in American history that was accompanied by less government growth than the War of 1812.

Howe summed it up well on page 90, "Though Madison's administration could be faulted for incompetence, no one could accuse it, as the Federalists had been accused, of militarism and authoritarianism." Madison's restraint in a time when he could have wielded more power is an example of disciplined leadership that is rare in presidential history. I respect him a great deal for that.

Quotation from
by Randolph Bourne

Great comments, Douglass, thanks. I agree, Madison roots were with Jefferson. Although once you enter the presidency, things can change and both did things they might not have thought they would do, they had could not ignore their roots.

Thanks everyone for your comments and to Bryan for keeping things going in my absence.

Glad to help, Bentley.