The History Book Club discussion

This is the Week Eleven thread for the next Presidential Series selection (The Years of Lyndon Johnson: The Passage of Power) by Robert A. Caro.

The week's reading assignment is:

Week ELEVEN - November 26th - December 2nd -> Chapters NINETEEN & TWENTY p. 466 - 502
NINETEEN - "Old Harry" and TWENTY - "The Johnsons in Johnsons City"

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to begin reading this selection and/or to post.

Bryan Craig is the assisting moderator who will be leading this discussion. We hope you enjoy this discussion of another great book in the Presidential Series.

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations

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If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
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Glossary

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Bibliography

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Table of Contents and Syllabus

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Welcome,

~Bryan

Robert A. Caro

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Chapter Nineteen: "Old Harry"

Harry Byrd, Sr. dominated Virginia politics with his machine, "The Organization." Byrd gave you the nod to run for office. If you did not get his approval, your chances of winning was very slim to nothing. He was a newspaperman and apple grower (businessman), and governor.

Byrd favored a conservative "pay as you go" fiscal policy. JFK hoped to go around Byrd in the Appropriations Committee, but failed. However, LBJ worked on his relationship with Byrd during his Senate years. He went to the funeral of Byrd's daughter. He began to meet regularly with him and developed a friendship. However, it was tough because Byrd was stubborn when it came to fiscal matters.

LBJ had lunch with Byrd on December 4. LBJ agreed to get the budget at $100 billion, which meant he had to cut it, then Byrd would begin to move the tax bill.

LBJ worked the cabinet secretaries to cut jobs saving money that way. Appropriations Committee members were adding amendments to the tax bill and once LBJ said to Byrd that he was working on reaching the $100 billion number, Byrd began to move the amendment process along.

Chapter Twenty: "The Johnsons in Johnson City"

LBJ worked on moving the civil rights bill. He met with labor, civil rights, and Hispanic leaders, and they could sense his passion for civil rights. At this point, the bill was stuck in the House of Representatives Rules Committee, and the best solution to get it unjammed was a discharge petition to get it to the floor. The Democrats needed 218 signatures, so that meant Republican signatures. The GOP said they would not sign it, but LBJ began to use the argument that the Republican Party was the party of Lincoln. This helped get hearings scheduled for early January 1964. LBJ hoped he could get the tax bill finished, then clear the way for the civil rights bill. The president fought off another vote of the Mundt Bill by getting the Democrats back on the Hill to defeat it on the floor.

LBJ was getting positive press when Life Magazine ran a story about his effective transition. LBJ and his family also moved into the White House on December 7.

Byrd is a fascinating person. It is interesting he measured himself by what he stopped, not bills that he passed or authored.

How do you think LBJ's courting Byrd and his ability to work with him illustrate LBJ's power?

Bryan,
I think that the courting of Byrd shows how critical Johnson's understanding and use of personal relationships were to his mastery of political power.

I suppose going to the funeral of Byrd's daughter was primarily self-serving, but people never forget those who go out of their way to support them during these soul wrenching occasions. Supplying aides to work on Byrd's reports, always showing him deference, and asking for his "wisdom" helped further Johnson's political goals, but I also believe that he genuinely respected and liked Byrd. If he didn't, he sure had Byrd fooled.

What most impressed me was Johnson's understanding that there was no way that Byrd would release the tax bill unless the budget was pared back under $100 billion dollars. No one else seemed to get this. Johnson did because he had built a relationship with Byrd and knew him so well.

I must say I enjoyed reading how Johnson twisted the arms of his Cabinet to make sure the budget cuts were made.

I am too, I wonder how much LBJ communicated his work on his cabinet to Byrd, saying, "I'm working on the budget." This probably sent good signals to Byrd.

I liked the word LBJ used "wisdom." I need your wisdom. Well, well played.

Yes, LBJ certainly knew how to appeal to old people. :-)

Bryan, can you tell me if there was any other president who had a thorough understanding of how Congress really works? I know that both Kennedy and Obama came from the Senate, but neither of them would seem to qualify.

Ann wrote: "Bryan, can you tell me if there was any other president who had a thorough understanding of how Congress really works? I know that both Ke..."

There have been a number of presidents who served in Congress and had a good knowledge of it: Polk, Pierce, Garfield, McKinley, and Ford had the longest experience. But I think LBJ was the best of them all, because he really had the combination of knowing how Congress worked and the power of persuasion. No former member of Congress who became president was more effective in my opinion.

Thank you for the information, Bryan. That's very interesting.

Yes, that power of persuasion was really something. I like the way Caro provides all the details so we can see how he actually used it.

I could not help but notice that during the budget process it was revealed that the Postal Service Department was requesting an additional 5,000 employees of the government’s departmental total of 7,000. With some pressure LBJ convinced the Postmaster General to forego the extra 5,000. (pg 480)

Again I am impressed with LBJ's ability to use all the experience he had acquired throughout his political career to get the result he desired.
In meeting with Roy Wilkins,

But by the time the conversion ended, he had been "struck by the enormous difference between Kennedy and Johnson . . . Where Kennedy had been polite and sympathetic on all matters of basic principle, more often than not he had been evasive on action. Kennedy was not naive, but as a legislator he was very green. He saw himself as being dry-eyed, realistic. In retrospect, I think that for all his talk about the art of the possible, he didn't really know what was possible and what wasn't in Congress . . . When it came to dealing with Congress, Johnson knew exactly what was possible . . . Johnson made it plain he wanted the whole bill. If we could find the votes, we would win. If we didn't find the votes, we would lose, he said. The problem was as simple as that." Wilkins had entered the Oval Office without much hope; that wasn't the way he left it. Nook eBook p. 651/1041

I think this shows the difference between Kennedy (to whom the presidency was NOT his 1st choice in career goals) and LBJ (who had spent most all of his life in pursuit of it). He WAS a master politician.

Excellent quote, Tomerobber. LBJ had so much more experience, didn't he? And he had learned from that experience to get what he wanted.

Someone earlier observed that Americans might view Kennedy very differently in the future, once those who lived through the assassination have passed. I have been thinking about that.

Vision is important, but if you can't get your program through Congress, it is not worth much. Kennedy's reputation has already been tarnished by his reckless womanizing. His skill as a politician is also being questioned.

In reading the Civil Rights chapter, I am once more impressed by Johnson's skill in getting around the roadblocks in Congress. Critical to this was the importance he attached to exact vote counting. He also used the discharge petition very effectively.

All of his meetings with different groups reminded me of what Obama has been doing in recent days. I wonder what the results will be.

An important part of political skill is knowing how far to push your opponents, and LBJ knew this. Smith agreed to get the Civil Rights Bill out of his committee in January after Congress reconvened, but "the statement was allowed to be vague— to permit Smith to save as much face as possible." Kindle Locations 12157-12158).

I liked how MLK assessed Johnson:
“LBJ is a man of great ego and great power. He is a pragmatist and a man of pragmatic compassion. It just may be that he’s going to go where John Kennedy couldn’t.” (Kindle Locations 12003-12005).

I'm sure that great ego will come to the fore again. As for the pragmatism, Caro states repeatedly that LBJ was a true friend of Civil Rights, as long as it didn't come into conflict with his ambition.

Mark wrote: "I could not help but notice that during the budget process it was revealed that the Postal Service Department was requesting an additional 5,000 employees of the government’s departmental total of ..."

Unlike today, Mark, where the postal department is in real trouble. It is funny you bring it up, because the postal department historically was a great place for patronage.

Great insights, Tomerobber and Ann. I say thanks a lot as you can read, but I do meant it every time. Everyone is doing a wonderful job posting, making it a lot of fun.

JFK had charm, but I think it had its limits, especially with Congress. I am also impressed by LBJ's use of symbolism of the office to reach the people. We know how sad it will become as he loses touch with people later in his administration. But right now, he is connecting with people and important leaders.

I also like MLK's observation, too. Ego and power. We have seen both of them in this book.

I thought it was interesting that LBJ used the Party of Lincoln on the Republicans regarding civil rights.

I thought about today and how the GOP has trouble with minorities and a GOP member brought that same argument up.

Bryan wrote: "How do you think LBJ's courting Byrd and his ability to work with him illustrate LBJ's power?"

LBJ was very manipulative. Not necessarily in a bad way but he knew that there was a way to every person or that every person had a weakness and he knew how to find it and use it. Byrd is a great example of that. He found out what maked Byrd was looking for, or the way to his heart, I should say, and played off of those findings to get Byrd to approve his tax bill.

I think it's the ultimate power a person could have and use. I used to think charisma was the most powerful personality trait because those who had it could metaphorically cast a spell on a person. But spells can be broken and the illusions can stop working. This kind of power and ability never goes away as we have seen. So far LBJ has used it for the good of the nation and humanity. He could just as easily not use it for good. I think we saw some of that with the dealings in his personal and business life.

Bryan wrote: "I thought it was interesting that LBJ used the Party of Lincoln on the Republicans regarding civil rights.

I thought about today and how the GOP has trouble with minorities and a GOP member brough..."

I think this illustrates that LBJ sometimes also knew the value of symbolism as well as "back room negotiating" when trying to persuade other politicians and people in general to back his programs. He didn't always see things clear sightedly (his failure to understand the real dynamics of the 1960 nomination process is an example) but when he did see things and situations clearly, such as what it would take to get his legislative goals passed in 1964, then I think no politician was better.

Theresa,
I liked your contrast of personal persuasion and charisma. LBJ was a master of the first and Kennedy had the latter in spades.

Steven,
In reading this book, doesn't it make you wonder what back room negotiating might be going on now with the "fiscal cliff" (or "fiscal slope" as some now prefer to call it)?

I certainly hope some of that is going on, because the statements for show are just making things worse.

Theresa wrote: "Bryan wrote: "How do you think LBJ's courting Byrd and his ability to work with him illustrate LBJ's power?"

LBJ was very manipulative. Not necessarily in a bad way but he knew that there was a wa..."

Well said, Theresa, thank you. What we have here is a true master politician.

Steven wrote: "Bryan wrote: "I thought it was interesting that LBJ used the Party of Lincoln on the Republicans regarding civil rights.

I thought about today and how the GOP has trouble with minorities and a GOP..."

Thanks, Steven. You bring up an interesting parallel of the LBJ early in the book (the candidate and VP). It is almost two different people.

Steven, you give a good reason for the change: clarity of vision. Are there any other reasons for the change?

Also, this quote speaks about Lady Bird (when they are moving into the White House):

"'Anything that needs to be done, remember this: my husband comes first, the girls second, and I will be satisfied with what's left.'" (p. 501)

I can't believe LBJ wanted to give all those journalists a tour of the house when Lady Bird hadn't been warned and dinner was ready. Lady Bird must have been a saint.

And how about Lyndon assuring the press that his daughter wasn't pregnant even though she was wearing a loose fitting dress! Those kinds of remarks left no doubt that LBJ was NOT raised in a genteel environment.

He seems just euphoric after his first few weeks in office.

Indeed, behind every great man is a greater woman. It is a change from what we see today as more First Ladies take on bigger roles.

That's what I thought as well, Ann. a better woman than me, that's for sure.

I think Lady Bird knew her husband very well . . . and though she had a right to feel like killing him for making dinner even later . . . I have a feeling that she knew just how important it was for him to bask in the moment . . . he finally had achieved what he had been working for for a very long time.

Yes, he was lucky to have her, Tomerobber.

Ann wrote: "Steven,
In reading this book, doesn't it make you wonder what back room negotiating might be going on now with the "fiscal cliff" (or "fiscal slope" as some now prefer to call it)?

I certainly ho..."

Ann, I agree, but what is unnerving is the quote from Byrd, p. 481 ARC, Hell, we don't care about delay. That's what we're in business for, is to delay things..

And the financial lives of US citizens have been and are in their hands.
This was a very frightening chapter for me. I've just been too naive about the system of government, I think.

G,
I understand what you mean. I had no idea how Congress really works. It is not at all reassuring.

This is why I'm looking forward to reading the other volumes . . . Caro presents the running of government in an easily understood format . . . he gets down to the bones of how it REALLY works.

G wrote: "Ann wrote: "Steven,
In reading this book, doesn't it make you wonder what back room negotiating might be going on now with the "fiscal cliff" (or "fiscal slope" as some now prefer to call it)?

I ..."

Indeed, a number of politicians see blocking legislation as one of their primary roles. It is effective.

Tomerobber wrote: "This is why I'm looking forward to reading the other volumes . . . Caro presents the running of government in an easily understood format . . . he gets down to the bones of how it REALLY works."

I think Caro's second and third goes deeper into this. They are great reads:

Robert A. Caro