J.R.R. Tolkien discussion

I have been doing a lot of research on "The Hobbit" and have been focusing on Tolkien's goal as a writer to create mythology for England (most of the mythology have Welsh or Latin origin instead of Anglo-Saxon). Tolkien was also trying to get readers interested in the literature from around 900 AD to 1066 (The Norman Conquest) and the Medieval Period. "The Hobbit" was the book that started it all. What is your opinion about "The Hobbit" as mythological literature?

I found various interesting articles on this subject, such as...

"...Tolkien’s starting point was the same as that of the Grimm brothers, whose work is in vogue once more: language. The Hobbit falls in the genre called Märchen, house-tales, or, in the misleading English translation, fairy tales. But it began with a word, Hobbit, for which Tolkien had to find an origin. For him, origins of words went to the mythic roots of the people who used them, even when those people were imaginary...As the most learned of Tolkien critics, the Anglo-Saxonist Tom Shippey, has argued, Tolkien, knowing that English mythology had soaked into the earth without trace after the Norman conquest, sought to make one from scratch. He would dignify his ancestors from the West Midlands with as proud a mythology as the Greeks had in Homer and Hesiod.
Always, even in Tolkien’s most trivial tales, there are hints of forgotten roots. So, for those in the know, Benedict Cumberbatch as Smaug in the new film will be a cousin of Andy Serkis as Gollum. Let me explain... Smaug is the dragon, guarding a hoard of treasure, whose defeat is the quest of the Hobbit, Bilbo Baggins, and his 13 dwarf companions. His name is the past tense of an Old Norse word smjúga meaning “to creep through an opening”. Gollum’s real name had been Smeagol (a word that might have existed in Old English), meaning “apt to creep into a hole”... Tolkien invented another term to express an element opposed to Norse pessimism – eucatastrophe, “the sudden happy turn in a story which pierces you with a joy that brings tears”. The joy was from “beyond the walls of the world”. It is not exactly a happy ending, for Tolkien’s myths never end. Bilbo, like Frodo in The Lord of the Rings, is saved by an unlooked-for eucatastrophe just as he faces “the end of all things”. But he does not live happily ever after. The elves too pass away from the world, and the Hobbits’ Shire will dwindle into the unlovable West Midlands. But in his essay On Fairy Stories, published just after The Hobbit, Tolkien declared: “The Birth of Christ is the eucatastrophe of Man’s history. The Resurrection is the eucatastrophe of the story of the Incarnation.” That was a myth which, in Tolkien’s eyes, had become historical reality."

http://astro.temple.edu/~mjmiller/tol...

Personally i feel that his work and creation as a whole (including the Hobbit) are based around many things including studies of mythology and his endeavor to create his very own mythology, which ultimately Tolkien does achive.

I really appreciate the response! I have been arguing with my professor about how successful Tolkien has been in creating a mythology as well as referencing other works which will evoke a sense or feeling of mythology, even in the 21st century. Thank you so much! I feel vindicated.

Alicia wrote: "I really appreciate the response! I have been arguing with my professor about how successful Tolkien has been in creating a mythology as well as referencing other works which will evoke a sense or ..."

your welcome. I find it apsolutely facinating!

It is so fun to find another or many others who have read "On fairy stories" and almost a eucastrophe for me. (Sp?)

"The Hobbit" was actually not the starting point for Tolkien's mythology, as he had been working on "The Silmarillion" for a long time and so had a whole mythology in place before writing "The Hobbit". At first, he was unsure how "The Hobbit" would fit in with these other writings, but eventually it helped him to further develop and expand his mythology.

Erin wrote: ""The Hobbit" was actually not the starting point for Tolkien's mythology, as he had been working on "The Silmarillion" for a long time and so had a whole mythology in place before writing "The Hobb..."

Thank you for the response! I was not focusing as "The Hobbit" being the beginning of his mythology for England ,but rather it being the first work he published about Middle Earth and people's responses to it. I would have liked to have added "The Silmarillion" in my paper, unfortunately that would have turned my 3000+ word research into a dissertation.

Joanne wrote: "It is so fun to find another or many others who have read "On fairy stories" and almost a eucastrophe for me. (Sp?)"

I was so happy to find this forum with people who know what eucatastrophe is. I get blank stares most of the time.

Lucinda wrote: "Alicia wrote: "I really appreciate the response! I have been arguing with my professor about how successful Tolkien has been in creating a mythology as well as referencing other works which will ev..."

Lucinda wrote: "Alicia wrote: "I really appreciate the response! I have been arguing with my professor about how successful Tolkien has been in creating a mythology as well as referencing other works which will ev..."

I was so shocked to find all this information about his goal in making mythology! Before I did this paper I thought it was a really good book, and I even followed the train of thought of it being allegory. Do you think that Tolkien has achieved his goal on a more scholarly level or do you think the general public or readers believe that it can be mythology?

I touched a little bit on this - though not very deeply - in an article I wrote some years ago. It's been reproduced at:
http://mythicscribes.com/world-buildi...

Tolkien was a great man and writer. On Fairy-Stories is an interesting essay, though I read it some years ago now so it's a bit foggy in my memory.

I try to weave myth into my own novels - I think it provides an anchor, something the reader can relate to. And, being British, I love our history and folklore :)

I wrote my thesis for my B.A. on a similar topic. Tolkien drew on a lot of already present mythology and literature to create a mythology of his own. As it stands as a mythology England, I think it is a little too derivative of Scandinavian and Norse mythologies to succeed in that goal.

Hillary wrote: "... As it stands as a mythology England, I think it is a little too derivative of Scandinavian and Norse mythologies to succeed in that goal. "

Of course, the myths of England that Tolkien hoped to (re)create, being the myths of Germanic peoples - Angles and Saxons - would have been very similar to the myths of other Germanic peoples, such as the Norse. So, his use of other Germanic myths is not surprising, nor derivative, except in the sense that he was working backwards to common (unrecorded) Germanic myths and then projecting back forward to derive possible Anglo-Saxon stories - with his own twist.

Another route he could have taken would have been to ignore Germanic myths and explore Celtic myths for the Celtic peoples (such as the Brigantes) who far pre-dated the Germanic incursions in the British (Briton!) isles. Or he could have sought to merge Celtic and Germanic stories in a singular "mythology for England". However, Tolkien pretty firmly identified himself as a West Midlander (Mercian) and that's Germanic. So, his choice isn't so much derivative as logical and ... perfect. Without that choice, Middle Earth wouldn't be Middle Earth. Middengeard is also a Germanic concept.

Good grief! How did I miss this thread?

I feel that Tolkien achieved his aim of creating a mythology in The Silmarillion: Cosmogeny, the gods, the elder races before humankind, why there is evil in the world and how the world became as we see it.

The Hobbit for me is a folktale rising out of the background mythology, whilst The Lord of the Rings is the national epic, telling the story of the kingly founder of the country. An inexact comparison might be between The Hobbit and The Mabinogion on the one hand, and The Lord of the Rings and Le Morte d'Arthur on the other.

The Way of Wyrd: Tales of an Anglo-Saxon Sorcerer and The Real Middle-Earth: Magic and Mystery in the Dark Ages, both by Brian Bates, were books I found interesting in looking at the question of an English mythology, the latter obviously linked directly to Tolkien.

The standard reference work to Anglo Saxon Paganism is Anglo Saxon Paganism by David Wilson. Well worth seeking out and wisely doesn't use late Icelandic texts to illustrate the 5th and 6th century period.

Neil wrote: "The standard reference work to Anglo Saxon Paganism is Anglo Saxon Paganism by David Wilson. Well worth seeking out and wisely doesn't use late Icelandic texts to illustrate the 5th and 6th century..."

Neil, as ever, you are a fount of knowledge :-)

Links for convenience:

Anglo-Saxon Paganism by David M. Wilson