Sword & Sorcery: "An earthier sort of fantasy" discussion

Several of us (myself included) have mentioned various S&S anthologies, either as gateway drugs into the genre, or just as a source of good reading, so I thought I'd start a thread where we could discuss them in more detail. To get things started, here's a very, very incomplete list of some of the ones I'm aware of:

Swords and Sorcery, The Spell of Seven, The Fantastic Swordsmen, Warlocks and Warriors, all edited by L. Sprague de Camp. I think these were some of the earliest attempts to collect (and, by collecting, define) sword & sorcery fiction in particular.

The Mighty Barbarians and The Mighty Swordsmen, edited by Hans Stefan Santesson. Another set of reprint anthologies, these from 1969-1970. I believe there's lots of overlap with the de Camp anthologies in included authors if not specific stories.

Flashing Swords! #1 (first of five), all edited by Lin Carter. A series of anthologies collecting brand new S&S stories, with a mix of established & new authors ranging from Michael Moorcock to C.J. Cherryh, amongst others. Generally longer stories, with only 4-5 per volume.

Swords Against Darkness (first of five). Another series of anthologies, these edited by Andrew J. Offutt. I admit I haven't read all of these, but they seem to contain shorter fiction than the Flashing Swords books; I believe they were primarily original, but may have included some reprints as well.

Heroic Fantasy, edited by Gerald W. Page. This is an interesting one, I think -- the stories are all original, it includes contributions by Tanith Lee, Charles Saunders and Darrell Schweitzer, amongst others, and also includes brief essays on swords, armor and heroism.

Echoes of Valor (first of three), edited by Karl Edward Wagner. Another reprint anthology, this time including 3-4 authors per volume, ranging from the Usual Suspects ( Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber) to some more obscure choices Henry Kuttner, Nictzin Dyalhis (my vote for the best S&S author name ever). Not strictly sword & sorcery stories, but aimed at preserving gems from the pulp era.

And that, of course, is just the tiniest tip of the iceberg. Which ones am I leaving out? Which ones should we all be trying to lay our hands on?

This is a very good sum up Josef. I'd love to see if there are more anthologies out there. Perhaps we could add Rogue Blades entertainment's anthologies (Return of the Sword, Rage of the Behemoth and Demons: A Clash of Steel Anthology) or the two Pitch-Black Books anthologies (Lords of Swords & Sages & Swords: Heroic Fantasy Anthology). I've also noticed G.W. Thomas' Swords of Fire. Also, from older stuff, the various Thieves' World books. Feel free to add any anthologies missing from the groups' Bookshelf.
My gateway drug into recent S&S authors was Swords & Dark Magic: The New Sword and Sorcery.

Love those two Pitch-Black anthologies -- that was actually where I first read a Harold Lamb story and recognized what I've been missing. And I have the RBE anthologies, but sadly I haven't had a chance to read them yet.

I liked Swords & Dark Magic quite a bit, and also The Sword & Sorcery Anthology, although I think both of those generated a certain amount of ... discussion? ... regarding the stories & authors they included.

Swords of Fire is a new one to me -- I'll have to check it out.

(Unfortunately, I don't think most of us can add to the bookshelf because I think it's set to moderator only.)

I recall a couple called Barbarians and Barbarians 2 ... but it has been so long since I read them I do not recall whether they are very good.

Joseph wrote: "Love those two Pitch-Black anthologies -- that was actually where I first read a Harold Lamb story and recognized what I've been missing. And I have the RBE anthologies, but sadly I haven't had a ..."

Joseph, First off...awesome thread. Anthologies are certainly great snapshots of the genre through time, and indeed serve as "gate-way drugs." Personally, I love the Flashing Swords ones with the Frazetta covers, since they feed my cover-addiction too.

Anyway, about the bookshelves: Periklis is working on reorganizing the initial population of books used to jump-start the group. Anthologies/Gate-way-Drugs should certainly become a category. I like the idea of having an "open" bookshelf which all members could edit. At first glance, this was non-obvious; but let us work on it for a bit (even as a moderator, GR will not let me edit the shelves right now).

Don't forget about Amazons and Amazons 2. I'll swing by my library shelf in the next few days and add some more. There's a whole raft of older ones.

Steve -- Yes, I actually picked up both of those after they were mentioned in an article on www.blackgate.com but (story of my life) I haven't read them yet.

Howard -- Those were Jessica Amanda Salmonson anthologies, weren't they? She did a bunch, I think.

S.E. -- Happy to hear about the bookshelves; I'll just be patient and see what happens then.

(And I'm also tempted, now that I think about it, to list Black Gate, but that would more properly go in a magazine thread, I suppose.)

Those were from her. I think she only did those two. You might have it confused with another longer running series, which was far more miss than hit, especially after the first few.

Yeah, Black Gate is kind of anthology sized, isn't it?

Heroic Visions and Heroic Visions Ii -- those were the ones I was thinking of. I thought she'd edited some others as well but if she did they're not on my shelf.

Yes, just in terms of word count (not to mention quality of fiction), any issue of Black Gate stacks up favorably with any of the books listed here.

Sorry -- I'd forgotten about those!

Thank you for starting this thread Joseph and thank you everyone for participating. I've created a thread where we can discuss how to arrange the group's Bookshelf and added the books listed so far in the anthologies shelf.
I was thinking about creating separate shelves for "anthologies", "collections" and "Gate-way-Drugs" or "introduction to S&S" (unfortunately no more than 30 characters allowed). We should discuss this on the Bookshelf thread.
And Howard, I'm anxiously waiting for more obscure titles from your library!

Speaking of the Pitch Black anthologies, did Lords of Swords II: Fantasy Fiction Anthology ever actually exist? Or will I only find a copy if I venture to some other portion of the Multiverse?

Joseph wrote: "Speaking of the Pitch Black anthologies, did Lords of Swords II: Fantasy Fiction Anthology ever actually exist? Or will I only find a copy if I venture to some other portion of the Multiverse?"

Seems you're right. Found this thread here on GR. I shall remove it from the Bookshelf.

Periklis wrote: "Seems you're right. Found this thread here on GR. I shall remove it from the Bookshelf. ..."

That's too bad -- I did enjoy the two anthologies that were published, and would have been pleased to see more.

I can confirm that "Lords of Swords 2" never came to be. One of my stories was set to go in it. Lucky for me that story, "The Mask Oath," found a good home in Return of the Sword from RBE.

How about the Sword and Sorceress anthologies?

Periklis wrote: "How about the Sword and Sorceress anthologies?"

Yeah, they'd definitely qualify, although I haven't read them and am not sure what the treasure-to-dross ratio is in that particular series, especially in later volumes.

Still making my way through all the threads, so apologies if this is misplaced - S.E./Periklis, please re-direct as appropriate.

However, just wished all to know that RBE holds all the remaining stock of the Pitch-Black anthology Sages & Swords: Heroic Fantasy Anthology; in addition, RBE also has the only inventory of the limited edition Rage of the Behemoth covers - full wrap arounds for each of the five slices on the store cover.

As such, and with the desire to share the wealth of heroic S&S adventure present in both titles, RBE will offer a combo price of $15 for 1 copy of each (RotB and S&S), plus USPO Priority Shipping ... so $20 for continental US gets 2 awesome titles delivered within 3 days anywhere in the lower 48!

Rogue Blades wrote: "Still making my way through all the threads, so apologies if this is misplaced - S.E./Periklis, please re-direct as appropriate.

However, just wished all to know that RBE holds all the remaining s..."

A great bargain. Since we can't move comments between folders, I have created a topic in the Promotions, Deals & New Releases folder.

I have to say that I really hated SWORDS & DARK MAGIC. I call it SWORDS & SCATOLOGY. If you like stories with lots of urine, feces, pus, mucus, and other body fluids, this is your book.

I see that Innsmouth Free Press are about to open submissions for a SWORDS AND MYTHOS anthology. Pro rates too, so I'll be submitting something.

Morgan wrote: "I have to say that I really hated SWORDS & DARK MAGIC. I call it SWORDS & SCATOLOGY. If you like stories with lots of urine, feces, pus, mucus, and other body fluids, this is your book."

Morgan, Swords & Dark Magic: The New Sword and Sorcery obviously failed to impress you. I am surprised since, from the book description, it looked like the author list was awesome: Tanith Lee,Tim Lebbon, Gene Wolf, J.Abercrombie, Michael Shea, R. Silverberg, M. Moorcock. C.J. Cherryh, and many more. I would not have predicted the stories to be that juvenille. Any diamonds in the ruff/scat in there?

The stories by Cherryh, Lee, and Silverberg are mediocre. Michael Shea probably had the best story. The stories by Lebbon, Kiernan, Abercrombie and others were the scatology stories. Lots of mucus.

S.E. wrote: "Morgan, Swords & Dark Magic: The New Sword and Sorcery obviously failed to impress you. I am surprised since, from the book description, it looked like the author list was awesome:"

Jason Waltz gave this collection an indepth review over at BlackGate. Because of his review I never bothered to buy the book. Sadly, having a stable of well-known authors doesn't necessarily make for a good book. The editor should have tapped some of the newer talent that relishes writing good old fashion S&S.

http://www.blackgate.com/2010/06/23/a...

Morgan wrote: "I have to say that I really hated SWORDS & DARK MAGIC. I call it SWORDS & SCATOLOGY. If you like stories with lots of urine, feces, pus, mucus, and other body fluids, this is your book."

Maybe I just have a higher tolerance for that kind of thing? I liked Swords & Dark Magic: The New Sword and Sorcery quite a bit. It's been long enough since I read it that I don't remember many specifics but the Scott Lynch story in particular was a highlight for me.

Bruce wrote: "Jason Waltz gave this collection an indepth review over at BlackGate..."

Bruce, thanks for sharing that link. Wow, Jason Waltz really went in depth in that Blackgate review. I am intrigued now, but not enough to run and buy a copy to weigh in...just yet.

I've only dipped in to a few stories myself. So far, so good, honestly -- I read the Enge and the Erikson. Lou Anders just sent me a really fabulous edition of the book, which is an impetus to read more of the contents.

Joseph wrote:

You might have a higher tolerance if you haven't read much sword and sorcery fiction or are newer to the genre. Guess I am getting old and cranky about things but I like the technicolor atmosphere of old sword and sorcery, the glamor and splendor, not the urine and excrement.

Morgan wrote: "You might have a higher tolerance if you haven't read much sword and sorcery fiction or are newer to the genre."

Or alternatively different people have different tastes and different standards. I also like the technicolor atmosphere, the glamor and splendor of the classics but that doesn't necessarily preclude enjoying the more recent iterations.

I read the Erikson story which I didn't really love. Even though I've enjoyed the five Malazan books I read there's a D&D v.3 vibe I find irritating and it really hit me in "Goats of Glory". Glen Cook's "Tides Elba" is simply a boring incident though as a chapter in the upcoming "Port of Shadows" it might work better as part of greater whole. Finally, I read James Enge's "Singing Spear" and loved it. I haven't read anything by him yet that's disappointed me.
I plan to read the rest of the book at some point. Anybody putting out original S&S is worth my time vs. someone just doing a lot of reprints.

With Swords and Dark Magic, I discovered new authors, which remains my first priority in an anthology.
I ordered hard-copies of more Morlock Ambrosius' adventures, Greg Keys' Fool Wolf, K.J. Parker's first part in the Engineer trilogy, CJ Cherryh's "Paladin", Glen Cook's first Black Company novel and the first Malazan book upon reading their authors' short stories.

I especially liked the stories of: James Enge, Michael Moorcock, Greg Keyes, Scott Lynch, Garth Nix and Joe Abercrombie.
Michael Shea's "Dying Earth" tale was entertaining, but I love his Nift stories much more.
Kiernan's story was indifferent but I'll read any further works of hers in the genre. Same with Lebbon's story. His story is set in the Echo City, but I'll be probably reading more Noreela stories in the future.
Bill Willingham's story was to short to leave any impressions.
I was dissapointed by: Robert Silverberg, Gene Wolfe and Tanith Lee, especially given their past works.

Periklis wrote: "I was dissapointed by: Robert Silverberg, Gene Wolfe and Tanith Lee, especially given their past works."

The Silverberg piece was a Majipoor story, wasn't it? I loved Lord Valentine's Castle and enjoyed the rest of the original Majipoor trilogy but haven't been able to get into the more recent volumes for whatever reason -- I think at least partly because he made them more overtly fantastical as opposed to the original trilogy which was definitely SF.

Have you read Shea's In Yana? It's a standalone novel but has a very Nifftean feel to the world.

Joseph wrote: "Periklis wrote: "I was dissapointed by: Robert Silverberg, Gene Wolfe and Tanith Lee, especially given their past works."

The Silverberg piece was a Majipoor story, wasn't it? I loved Lord Valent..."

Indeed it was a Majipoor story. Tried another Majipoor short, The Seventh Shrine, which I can't say I liked. I have a copy of the first three Majipoor books and despite these small disappointments I have high hopes for.
Thanks for recommending Shea'a book. I wasn't aware of it, at all...

Hey Morgan, while you've expressed that opinion of S&DM in the past, I've come to realize that you have not offered opinion of my mega-review ;)

While I am not soliciting so much your opinion of the quality of my review--and your scatology views aside--would you care to comment on my quantifying/qualifying the S&S I considered actually present? Not that I want to dredge up previous 'disputes' I'm just curious to hear from someone I consider to have an extensive knowledge of S&S and its history.

I need to reread your mega-review. You were kinder than I was. I liked the Robert Silverberg story more than you did but I have been reading Silverberg for a while plus I like the guy. He is on the fictionmags yahoo group and I am always fascinated by his stories for writing for the science fiction digest magazines.

Periklis wrote: "How about the Sword and Sorceress anthologies?"

I decided to read Sword and Sorceress II for this. I'm not a reader of many short stories, but I enjoyed most of the ones in this collection, as "read once" stories, anyway. I don't think there's many I'd go back to read again. However, I particularly liked Jennifer Roberson's "The Lady and the Tiger", although coming to this first outing for Tiger and Del, or at least a trial run at them, I was prepared for the joke on the reader (particularly the increasingly indignant female reader) at the end. It still made me laugh though, with satisfaction at a nice twist well-executed.
 
Nearly all the stories were episodes that could have been taken from a longer series of adventures; I think that's the nature of Sword and Sorcery. It's born to be serial. C.J. Cherryh's "The Unshadowed Land" however, was a 'perfect moment' sort of story. Something may happen afterwards, but we're not left expecting that we'll get to read about it later. It seems like a thing entire in itself, cast bronze or carved stone, whole within its boundaries -- a poem in prose. That's the story from this collection that's going to linger on in my mind.

K.V. wrote: "Nearly all the stories were episodes that could have been taken from a longer series of adventures; I think that's the nature of Sword and Sorcery..."

The episodic nature of the genre is one of its virtues I appreciate the most.
Thank you for joining the group read and more importantly, sharing your thoughts!