The History Book Club discussion

This is the Week Thirteen thread for the next Presidential Series selection (The Years of Lyndon Johnson: The Passage of Power) by Robert A. Caro.

The week's reading assignment is:

Week THIRTEEN - December 10th - December 16th -> Chapters TWENTY THREE, TWENTY FOUR, TWENTY FIVE, & TWENTY SIX p. 558 - 605
TWENTY THREE - In the Books of Law, TWENTY FOUR - Defeating Despair, TWENTY FIVE - Hammer Blows, and TWENTY SIX - Long Enough

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to begin reading this selection and/or to post.

Bryan Craig is the assisting moderator who will be leading this discussion. We hope you enjoy this discussion of another great book in the Presidential Series.

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations

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If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

Here is the link:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Welcome,

~Bryan

Robert A. Caro

Chapter Overviews and Summaries


Chapter Twenty three: In the Books of Law

Things in Congress were lined up pretty well for the civil rights bill. The tax bill and other important bills passed when the Senate got the civil rights legislation. The House version had public accommodations and fair employment provisions, provisions many Senators did not approve of. LBJ pressured them to accept the House version. The Department of Justice and Senator Humphrey helped get the bill passed. The clergy also added pressure like no other time before. LBJ worked on Midwest and western state senators to get their votes. Often times, LBJ used Department of Interior projects as a carrot for their vote. The bill passed on June 19, then the House passed it again on July 2.

Chapter Twenty Four: Defeating Despair

Since his brother's death, RFK suffered deep grief, because he was so close to his brother and he identified himself so closely with him. It was hard for him to work. He was a little better in January 1964, but he was not himself. His empathy, which usually surrounded his family in the past, began to grow outward. He was tired of chasing after people and he still remained passionate about social justice.

However, RFK's relationship with LBJ did not soften. He still deeply resented LBJ and thought he was a liar. LBJ did not change, either. He called him an SOB and felt he was a threat to his chances of being president. However, LBJ walked a tight rope, kept himself in check, and didn't upset the Kennedy staffers that he needed. The exception to this was RFK. He did send RFK to Indonesia, but RFK felt used, since his report was largely ignored. LBJ ordered RFK to fire Paul Corbin who was in New Hampshire working on a RFK write-in candidacy. LBJ told Salinger that JFK's death was divine intervention for JFK's "participation" in the deaths of Trujilio and Diem.

Chapter Twenty Five: Hammer Blows

Kennedy staffer did begin to leave. Sorenson resigned in February, and then Schlesinger went into LBJ's office in March to resign. In both cases, LBJ accepted the resignations. However, many Kennedy staffers stayed and all of Kennedy's cabinet officers remained. By the time of the resignations, it didn't really matter, because LBJ had a 77% approval rating and gaining respect as a leader.

Chapter Twenty Six: Long Enough

Caro argued that LBJ's transition got lost in history due to JFK's death. LBJ's only image people had about LBJ was the picture of him taking the oath of office. However, LBJ used JFK's martyrdom to galvanize support for legislation, then make his own stamp with the War on Poverty.

LBJ did not show his ugly side, the boasts, arrogance, and threats that he used in the past. He had to reign himself in to keep Kennedy staffers and the country on board during a tough time of transition. However, this would change as his term would go on. He ended up with a mixed record as president, and many people lost reverence for the presidency thanks to LBJ.

A great set of chapters. I'm sad it has ended.

Caro talks about how Department of Justice was a big help in getting the civil rights bill passed. However, he does not get into details on this. I would think he would in the chapter about RFK, but no.

I thought the chapter on RKF was interesting. One stand-out for me is that he was "tired of chasing people" and he "can't hate on his own." (p. 579)

I agree the chapter on RFK was very interesting. I can't help but wonder how American politics might have been different if he had not been assassinated, although this book reveals that he had his own demons and deep character flaws.

Caro suggests that RFK may have believed that those 8(!) separate CIA-sponsored assassination attempts on Castro during Kennedy's presidency (Kindle location 14019) might have had something to do with his brother's death. Whether or not they did, I am sure that he looked upon them very differently after his brother's tragedy.

The hatred between RFK and LBJ is just palpable. He called Johnson an inveterate liar, and he seems to have been right about that. But he went a lot further than that: "He’s mean, bitter, vicious—an animal in many ways. (Kindle location 141800) An animal??

LBJ, of course reciprocated the hatred.

I enjoyed reading the chapters about the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. It was fun to see the good guys win.

The mood of the country had definitely been changed by the courageous non-violent protests met by the vicious (and stupid) attacks of the supporters of segregation. TV had a great impact, as did the actions of religious leaders, who made Civil Rights a moral issue.

But without Lyndon Johnson's mastery of the political process, I think it would have been a long time before a strong Civil Rights Bill would have been passed. In the interim, there would have been a lot more violence.

I think this law was LBJ's grand accomplishment, although I am also interested in how Medicare and Medicaid ever got passed. I am sorry to see this book end. I hope Caro hurries up and finishes the final volume, but he is a perfectionist and that is not likely to happen.

I also liked how Senator Humphrey helped in the cause. Between LBJ and Humphrey, they really made a difference.

I agree, Ann, I am hoping Caro is on the project right now!

Yes, Humphrey's good humor and good relations with his colleagues were real assets.

I was interested in the strategy Humphrey used to make sure there was always a quorum, even in the middle of the night, so that the bill's opponents couldn't adjourn and start a new "legislative day." This allowed people who had already spoken to speak again. Can you tell me under what circumstances the Senate usually adjourns? I read on the internet that a legislative day could last weeks or even months.

I know it takes a vote to adjourn the Senate, which means all business is closed, and creates a new "legislative day." And if there is a new legislative day, then it goes through the general order of business (and senators can use this as a delay tactic).

A recess keeps the "legislative day" going, so it could go on beyond a calendar day.

So, maybe if Humphrey had enough of his people on the floor, they could block a motion to adjourn.

Thanks, Bryan. That helps me understand how Humphrey helped make the filibuster more difficult.

I read recently that some had suggested going back to the old days when Senate members had to actually speak in order to keep the filibuster alive.

I must say that after finishing this . . . I have a new appreciation for LBJ. I learned more than I ever knew during the time of his presidency. I'm planning on finishing the other three books in the series and looking forward to the fifth when it appears.
And since I'm now embroiled in the use of power with Meacham's Thomas Jefferson . . . I'm hoping to find something redeemable in Jefferson's character . . . though so far I'm finding that less likely.
by Jon Meacham

The conversation between LBJ and RFK regarding Paul Corbin is interesting. What does it say about their relationship?

Bryan wrote: "The conversation between LBJ and RFK regarding Paul Corbin is interesting. What does it say about their relationship?"

They continued to essentially not have one. They never stopped agitating each other and trying to find a way to get in a dig. And LBJ always knew where to apply the dagger.

Tomerobber wrote: "I must say that after finishing this . . . I have a new appreciation for LBJ. I learned more than I ever knew during the time of his presidency. I'm planning on finishing the other three books in t..."

While I already had an appreciation for both LBJ's flaws and his greatness, I agree that reading this volume made me re-evaluate him in many ways. I'm also interested in going back and reading the first 3 volumes, especially Robert A. Caro