Sci-fi and Heroic Fantasy discussion

A Memory of Light isn't one of the group's "official" reads (after all, it's the 14th book in a series. Hard to jump right in.)

But, if I'm the only person here planning on reading this soon after it goes on sale this Tuesday, January 8, then I must have made a wrong turn in the bookstore somewhere between the Cookbooks and History aisles. So, here's a place to discuss the Wheel of Time as a whole as well as its ultimate volume, for those of us marching to Tarmon Gai'don.

It was not the ending. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was an ending.

Note: Please be sure to use Spoiler Warnings and conceal particularly egregious revelations with the <spoiler> tag. (view spoiler)[Like this. (hide spoiler)]

US NPR (National Public Radio) had a short segment on the upcoming A Memory of Light on its Weekend Edition program (spoiler-free). If you're interested, you can listen to it via MP3 or read the transcript at NPR's website (here). (I suggest reading the transcript so the fanish squealing doesn't detract from the gravis of the program. :)

Ooh, I can feel that this is going to be epic. I am really looking forward to getting this book in my hands. I enjoyed all of the previous books, even the ones where nothing much happened and in spite of Robert Jordan's very poor portrayal of women.

Hypervorean wrote: "... in spite of Robert Jordan's very poor portrayal of women..."

Okay, I will walk into this trap. I've heard this said about Jordan before. Perhaps it's because I've only recently re-read the first two the Sanderson-written books (#12-13), but it seems to me that WoT at least he has a large number of important and powerful female characters. If their portrayal is sometimes a bit broad, the same can be said of many of his male characters (I'm not sure whether Matt's attitude towards women is more disturbing because it's so clichéd, or because it's so accurate. :) Nobody will confuse Jordan with Le Guin, Bradley or McCaffrey, but surely he gets some credit for trying?

It's a long series, so, yes he gets credit for trying lots of stuff! Seriously, I am a big fan of series and plan on reading. I have tendon surgery right when it comes out and old lady eyes so not sure I can actually read the hardcover—sucky timing. Okay, guess I'm a really big fan if more upset by that than by surgery. Nearly two decades of waiting...and still not willing to touch a pirated copy or seeing the delayed ebook release date as an excuse for piracy.

It's always a trap when there's a discussion about "portrayal of..." in a book. For discussing women characters as too weak or too strong, it can really degenerate. A topic deserving of its own thread to let all the hotheads on either side of the issue go at it. I cheerfully opine that in the last couple of pre-Sanderson books all the characters got as whine-y as if they had pms and the men and women both were behaving badly over power and gender issues. Bothered me less than the meanwhile-back-at-the-ranch POV changes right when you were expecting the exciting parts to happen.

G33z3r wrote: "Hypervorean wrote: "... in spite of Robert Jordan's very poor portrayal of women..."

Okay, I will walk into this trap. I've heard this said about Jordan before. Perhaps it's because I've only rec..."

I am not saying that I don't like the female characters. They all have their qualities.. It is just that they are so exaggerated in many cases. A lot of them act as though they were having PMS throughout entire books. No woman I know is that frustratingly bullheaded all the time.

Debbie wrote: "I cheerfully opine that in the last couple of pre-Sanderson books all the characters got as whine-y as if they had pms and the men and women both were behaving badly over power and gender issues. Bothered me less than the meanwhile-back-at-the-ranch POV changes right when you were expecting the exciting parts to happen."

I absolutely agree with this. There were several points at which I wished that Jordan was still alive (I only started reading the series after his death) so I could go and smack him on the head with something heavy.

Debbie wrote: "It's a long series, so, yes he gets credit for trying lots of stuff!..."


(Chuckles.)

Debbie wrote: "I cheerfully opine that in the last couple of pre-Sanderson books all the characters got as whine-y as if they had pms and the men and women both were behaving badly..."

I will cheerfully confess that when I re-read the series in preparation for AMoL, I skipped #9-11.

Hypervorean wrote: "...No woman I know is that frustratingly bullheaded all the time..."

Lucky you. I have one neighbor and two close relatives...and one boss I quickly quit on ...sorry to digress.

I seriously love what Sanderson has done with the series. So am looking forward to AMoL and hoping it will live up to my high expectations!

Debbie wrote: "the delayed ebook release date.."

I hadn't noticed that the eBook wasn't being released at the same time. Bummer. (Since I have all 13 previous WoT books in hardcover, this final volume didn't seem the right time for me to change technology for this series, at least.)

Sanderson did the same late eBook release with his 2012 novellas The Emperor's Soul and Legion. Later, when the eBook was released, he offered a free copy to anyone who bought the hardcover. But those were with different publishers. (In those cases, I just waited for the eBook.)

I'm jumping on as soon as my birthday comes round on January 22nd. By then I should be up to the right book too (hopefully...)

G33z3r wrote: "(I'm not sure whether Matt's attitude towards women is more disturbing because it's so clichéd, or because it's so accurate. :) "
I have a friend at work who fits Mat's attitude towards women (and gambling, and drinking). And his relationship with me is sort ot like Mat and Birgitte's. So yeah, I think it's more realistic than cliched.

As for AMoL, I'll see when I can get hold of it. Where I live it's quite hard. But I'm not done with the series yet so it's not a problem really.

As for the portrayal of women, I reallly don't think it's as bad as I have read in some places. And I pay a lot of attention to gender issues and gender portrayal on literature. Also, to be honest, most of the characters are asking for a smash on the head sometimes, starting by Rand.

Amazon's delivery truck ran very late yesterday (they didn't make it till 8:30 PM!) While I was waiting (with all the patience of an Aes Sedai, of course) I picked up this month's Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction and read the David Gerrold short story "Night Train to Paris", which included this line:

"I found a place to sit at the end of a long row of chairs and curled up with the first book of a popular seven-book trilogy (of which only the first five have been published. Starting an unfinished series was an act of faith on my part, an assumption that someday there would be a conclusion.)"

Gerrold's referring to Game of Thrones, of course, but I found it amusing to read that as I was waiting for the final book to the Wheel of Time decaquadrilogy. :)

Ah Hah! I scored autographed copy (they were not personalizing though and don't know if bookstore has extra signed editions).

Neither thunderstorms, dark of night, humungous crowd or busted tendon with newly fused bone coalition kept me from this booksigning … er … well didn't stop me from sending out my beloved to get the doorstopper finale of a series following since1990!







Some event photos at http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbi...

Debbie wrote: "Ah Hah! I scored autographed copy"

Very nice, Debbie. Jealous.

Debbie wrote: "Bothered me less than the meanwhile-back-at-the-ranch POV changes right when you were expecting the exciting parts to happen...."

Interesting you mentioned that. All those PoV changes really slow down my reading, and Jordan & Sanderson love it. I guess I'm a momentum reader: every time the PoV changes, it seems to be an excuse to get distracted by something else.

In the more recent few books, I've noticed some odd quirks in timelines as the PoV jumps around. Usually, you think of a change of PoV as being "meanwhile, back at the ranch". But in The Gathering Storm (WoT 12) and Towers of Midnight (WoT 13) especially, it's not so "meanwhile." For example, the Rand PoV story gets well out in front of the Perrin narration. And sometimes, the same characters appear in both storylines, the character seeming to leap around through time. E.g., in Towers of Midnight (WoT 13) we end up with (view spoiler)[Tam meeting with Rand (twice), but then "later" traveling with Perrin before that meeting and one in the previous book, The Gathering Storm (WoT 12) (hide spoiler)]. It just struck me as odd having to put timecodes on some characters; perhaps it was dictated by how they decided to split the final book into three pieces, each with its own natural conclusion/breaking point, that force them to jump around like that. Or, maybe it's because (view spoiler)[so many characters now have access to Traveling that makes it a lot harder to keep the threads from tangling. (hide spoiler)] (I wouldn't have noticed if some common secondary characters didn't appear in multiple PoV storylines with backtracking personal timelines.)

In Wot, as in many other SF&F these days, chapter divisions don't seem to mean what they used to mean. Sometimes, a new chapter just continues the same plot thread from the end of the previous chapter, and then a page or two later, there's a little extra white space between paragraphs and the scene, storyline and PoV shift. And sometimes, there's a little extra white space and a few asterisks. There's probably a hierarchy to the whitespace/asterisk/chapter divisions that I have simply failed to grok.

*gack* the POV switches in this series really murk it up for me.

So many characters...

"He thought he caught a glimpse of Petra through the crowd..." Light! Who's Petra? One of the Asha'man, maybe? Somebody's Warder? Can't be a noble, he wouldn't be in a crowd... Not forsaken. One of the Two-Rivers chaps? Wait, the Circus? When was that, book 7? (No, book 5.) Burn me!

(AMoL is the first of the books without the Glossary in the back, too.) I'm reading a physical book with my Kindle browser open to wot.wikia.com kept right next to my reading chair for quick searches.)

You know, you could create a heck of a deluxe eBook edition of WoT, with little pop-up maps, definitions, and mini-biographies.

G33z3r wrote: "So many characters...

"He thought he caught a glimpse of Petra through the crowd..." Light! Who's Petra? One of the Asha'man, maybe? Somebody's Warder? Can't be a noble, he wouldn't be in a crowd...."

That deluxe e-book would be something to behold!

Debbie wrote: "*gack* the POV switches in this series really murk it up for me."

Chapter 37: 200 pages. 70 PoVs.

Never say, "I'll come to bed as soon as I finish this chapter,” without checking its length first.

Never be expected. When people start to expect you — when they started to anticipate your flourishes, to look for the ball you had hidden through sleight-of-hand, or to smile before you reach the twist line of your tale — it was time to pack up your cloak... After all, that was what they'd least expect you to do... — Thom Merrilin

That's Robert Jordan (or perhaps Brandon Sanderson) promising that the ending can still surprise us. Can they deliver?

"The Wheel of Time" is a long story thick with many foretellings: prophecy: the various legends of the Dragon Reborn, the Karaethon Cycle, the pronouncements of the Eelfinn and Aelfinn in the Tower of Ghenjei, the visions of Rhuidean, Min's visions both vague and specific.

In addition, there are hints in the story, traditional foreshadowing rather than prophecy itself, things people have said or thought about, that could perhaps be a glimpse of things to come. For example (AMoL big spoiler): (view spoiler)[When Lan is teaching Rand to fight with the sword, one of the ultimate techniques he mentions is "Sheathing the Sword", essentially a suicide in order to slay a better opponent. Lan finally employs this himself when he duels Demandred. (hide spoiler)]

Did a story that has already predicted so much about the ending still retain any suspense for the reader? And can it have any excitement? Or, is it just a question of going down a checklist and ticking off the prophecies one at a time?

I thought it worked out very well. Part of it is the vagueness of the prophecies, of course. A big part of it is that there are dozens of characters whose storylines need closure in some fashion, and only a few of them have pertinent foretellings. (Some characters pop up again after the absence of a dozen books, too.) So, not everything went as expected, and there was plenty of room for suspense. Who lives? Who dies? Who betrays who? Who becomes a grand hero? Great stuff, IMO.

A Memory of Light marks its second week atop the NY Times Bestselling Hardcover Fiction list. (Last week it was also on top of the combined print and e-book fiction list, which I thought was pretty impressive given that there was no paperback or e-book. But this week it's dropped to #10 in combined sales. Pretty silly, holding back the e-book.)

After you've read A Memory of Light (and only then, unless you want your head filled with all the juicy, major spoilers), you might enjoy reading the summary of this Tor Chat with Brandon Sanderson (SPOILERS!). In it he talks about what parts were written by or dictated by Robert Jordan and which were Brandon Sanderson's doing, and he answers several questions about the ending, major and minor.

Well I just finished it and I thought it was a great ending for the series. I certainly thought it was a very satisfying conclusion on the whole. (view spoiler)[I mean I disliked Slayer and Padan Fain's endings. Really they deserved more and a lot of the characters ended up featuring a lot more than others. But on the whole it had a nice balance to it. Although I would have liked to see more main characters die if they were going to go and kill some of them :p But I loved the ideas in that ending. A very solid conclusion to the series. (hide spoiler)]

Ah...for my Valentine's my beloved got me one of the limited Michael Whelan autographed posters.

Jonathan wrote: "Well I just finished it and I thought it was a great ending for the series. (view spoiler)[Although I would have liked to see more main characters die if they were going to go and kill some of them :p (hide spoiler)]"

I think I pretty much agree with that sentiment. (view spoiler)[Some of the main characters had to survive based on various prophecies and visions. I thought Lan had earned his heroic death, something foreshadowed all the way back to the first book when he was first teaching Rand the basic sword forms. But of the main characters (the original Three Rivers crowd plus Elayne, Tom, Aviendha and Min), we only lost one, which was surprising, I think.

On the other hand, I thought Slayer and Fain got enough play (given how awesomely crowded the book already was. (hide spoiler)]

Just started reading the 1st book of WoT. Nothing interesting happened yet. :)

Xdyj wrote: "Just started reading the 1st book of WoT...."

Great. I re-read the series, one book per month, in preparation for AMoL's release (though I admit to skimming hastily over books #9-11, which I found a little slow the first time through, too.). I timed it pretty well, too. I was eager and ready to go when the final book was delivered,

Humorist James Thurber, an essayist from my younger days (best known for Walter Mitty), used to write twisted fairytales. One of them, "The Glass in the Field", offered the moral, "He who hesitates is sometimes saved."

I have to say there is something vaguely disturbing (or perhaps pathetic) about waiting 22 years for the end of the story, so I envy you for being able to push forward at whatever pace you want.

Plus, it does have a fine ending. The last three books are a fast-moving and exciting climax to a sprawling storyline.

Enjoy!

Just started the series, and I am loving it!! My fun spring/summer project is to enjoy the rest of this series. :)

Although the book has been out several months, those such as Christin above keeps me from waxing poetic over books many may not yet have read. Besides,no one wants to hear me wax anything...the horror, the horror! just realize all you have ahead of you through later re-readings. It's like Bugs Bunny, the older you get the more sarcastic he gets! Something new will always suprise you. Enjoy!

I read "River of Souls" from the new Unfettered anthology last night. (It was Sanderson's and Harriet Jordan/McDougal's contribution to the book to benefit editor Shawn Speakman's cancer treatment.) It was originally material intended to be in A Memory of Light, though there it would have been flashbacks/background from the Age of Legends. As put together here, it's a stand-alone short story that depends on familiarity with the Wheel of Time mythos. It's about 15 pages (as best as I can tell from the e-book).

The story is about a quest by a man named Bao, and it's coy about holding back how the story fits with the characters and events of the main series up until the end, so I won't spoil it. Suffice it to say it wasn't originally written to stand alone, and most of the elements that might have had drama are simply skipped over, so I found it a little dry. However, it is interesting background information for the series' biggest fans.

G33z3r wrote: "Xdyj wrote: "Just started reading the 1st book of WoT...."

Great. I re-read the series, one book per month, in preparation for AMoL's release (though I admit to skimming hastily over books #9-11, ..."

Glad I'm not the only one who found books 9-11 to be a bit slow...

I found this blog post interesting:


Visualizing The Wheel of Time: Reader Sentiment for an Epic Fantasy Series

Blogger James Siddle took look at reviews on Amazon and Goodreads for each of the books in the Wheel of Time series, and graphed both the ratings and number of reviews for each book in the series. As I expected, there is a sharp drop in the ratings for books 8-11. Curiously, the dip is nowhere as near as deep on Goodreads.

He also looks at the number of reviews on both sites, which show entirely different trends.

Best Con swag ever:


"Since 2006, the Worldcon has been making a collection of e-texts of the nominated works (subject to their authors’ and publishers’ willingness to make them available) available to Hugo voters, so that those voters can make informed choices....
In answer to many inquiries, we’re happy to be able to say that the entire Wheel of Time will be made available in the Hugo Voters’ Packet." - Tor.com (Emphasis added)

* LonCon 3 Membership Info (£25 supporting membership.)

That is very impressive! I am looking forward to checking out all the books nominated this year - and I'm also glad I've already read all the WoT books going in.

I read the first WoT book a couple years ago. I initially avoided it partly because it looked like an LotR knockoff, and partly because I was underwhelmed by one of Jordan's Conan pastiches Conan the Unconquered.

So I read the book, and found it to be way too similar to LotR for my taste, except that it hinted at Taoism. As I recall, the only part I appreciated about the first book was a fight scene between the Fellowship and a group of orcs in an abandoned city.

I was puzzled by the ending of Book 1, which seemed predictably LotR-ish, so I went to Wikipedia and read the summary of the end of the series, which sounded more Taoist. Granted, you could get fantasy Taoism in A Wizard of Earthsea at 1/100 the page count of WoT, but it is at least a less common path than the veiled Catholicism of Tolkein's vision.

All this is to say that the first book did nothing for me. I am wondering why people love it so much. Is it the characters? Is it the Taoism?

What separates it from the oodles of other Tolkein copies? What makes it better than, for example, Dragons of Autumn Twilight?

Well, for one, I think many people who love LoTR, don't mind some borrowing. I think if you were to critically analyze epic fantasy in general, it is very hard not to borrow from Tolkien. If the characters and story are well written, I would suspect the majority would overlook similarities. To me a knockoff is using the exact same formula with different names. To me this isn't a knockoff, but does resonate along the same line. But again, you could make that same argument for a lot of epic fantasy.

That's a good point, JW. It stands to reason that if I like Tolkein, then I should like other things that remind me of Tolkein. I guess it's kind of weird that I don't. I would really rather read something new.

The thing I realized when I wrote my novel, is even if you try not to use an idea from another author, it will inevitably happen. I was educated in history and I thought I could model a Bronze Age society into an interesting fantasy world that would be wholly unique. I used myth and culture from the period to create my model, but still saw similarities with other authors as I wrote. Humans are somewhat predictable and if you step too far away from perceived human behavior, then you start treading toward something unbelievable. So my hat's off to anyone who can maintain a completely unique story as it is not an easy task.

I think writing has made me more tolerable in general. Strong characters and an exciting story is what I look for, but everyone enjoys things a little different. I certainly understand your perspective, but I am pretty lenient with authenticity so long as it is well written.

Props to you for the Bronze Age thing. It's always interesting to see a fantasy novel get out of medieval Europe. Did you use a particular culture? The Bronze Age covers a lot of ground.

I understand that there are a limited number of plot structures. I think Kurt Vonnegut narrowed it down to three. I also understand that the "group of specialized characters go on a high-stakes quest against an evil overlord" formula is popular. It's just that I've read enough quest books and enough non-quest books to feel that the non-quest ones are a lot more interesting. Or, if it has to be a quest book, then a book that rethinks the genre a bit, like The Well of the Unicorn.

Initially I started with Minoan, but it ended up a bit of an amalgamation of numerous cultures. The Mysticism (magic) is something I spent some time developing. I left a hint of animism but focused on the huntress goddess.

But, that said, this is not built around our historical Bronze Age. When I approached this, I did a "what if" an alternate earth evolved slightly different. I wanted it to be fresh, but still familiar.

I agree with you entirely that a fresh approach is more interesting. It was my main motivation to stay away from a "Chivalry" archetype. No elves, dragons, or dwarves either. I still enjoy reading those elements, but I didn't want to write them. But, my lowly monk and tailor's daughter are well on their way to uncovering the "evil" that is plaguing the lands, so I have kept some of the formula alive.

I just read the blurb for The Well of the Unicorn and rather surprised I have never read it. I think I will have to put that at the top of my list. Thanks for that.

Dennis McKiernan's first book, The Dark Tide, was so strongly reminiscent of LOTR that I almost stopped reading McKiernan. My interest was piqued enough to get the next 2 books in the trilogy. McKiernan found his way and got away from Tolkien. I enjoyed his Mithgar series and was sorry he stopped.

Like Phil said, if I like Tolkien, I should like anything that reminds me of Tolkien.

I was scanning through some of the topics and this particular issue of originality has always intrigued me as well. So please forgive the rez of this thread.

Unless you are going for rewriting existing stories or some twist on them (aka Jane Austen zombies) I would say the less obvious but more common repeat is the overall structure and sequence of a story.

For example, It wasn't until I had finished the rough of two of my own stories that it occurred to me how many stories start with the similar concept of the unwitting hero who comes into his/her own through the intervention of a greater power. Young Frodo, a simple carefree hobbit meets Gandalf, Rand al'Thor starts as a simple backwater town boy meets Moiraine, Eragon - farmstead hunter meets Saphira/Brom etc.

I mention these stories specifically because I believe they subtly influenced my own writing in the story generation. I never consciously planned it, the story just happened that way. I like to think that an original fantasy concept and storyline would not be easy to create. Would it even be possible?

I think it can be nuanced. I think you could take an anti-hero approach as well. Martin for instance, tries to muddle any delineation between who the reader might see as good or evil. He purposely makes all his characters very flawed. You hate Jaime Lannister as a villain early in the series because he does evil things like throwing children out a window, but then Martin spends a great deal of time and effort humanizing the character trying to generate sympathy. Sometimes it feels forced, but I think something like this goes against the formula and he isn't alone.

So, there are ways if you want to avoid this, but I enjoy the formula. It doesn't bother me so long as the characters are accessible and the story is well written.

Hey guys! I just finished AMoL and loved it! I am curious, wasn't part of it written by Robert Jordan himself berfore his death, like one chapter? Or was that just a rumour?

Charlie wrote: "Hey guys! I just finished AMoL and loved it! I am curious, wasn't part of it written by Robert Jordan himself berfore his death, like one chapter? Or was that just a rumour?"

The official story is that Jordan recognized he had a significant chance of dying before he completed the series, and left behind as much material as he could in the form of outlines, notes, and some fully written scenes here and there. I think the epilogue was allegedly written mostly by Jordan with a few bits by Sanderson.

Not everyone buys this. Some fans believe the last three books are almost entirely from Sanderson's brain, not following at all from anything Jordan left. And some in the fandom who had inside access claim that the material Jordan left behind was mostly an unusable mess due to the effects of his medical condition on his mind.

So make of it what you will, and form your own opinion. If a part seems Jordanish to you, feel free to think that he wrote that part, regardless of what others say.

Mike wrote: "Charlie wrote: "Hey guys! I just finished AMoL and loved it! I am curious, wasn't part of it written by Robert Jordan himself berfore his death, like one chapter? Or was that just a rumour?"

The o..."

The last volume of my FAVORITE SERIES ever!!! I loved what Sanderson did with the world Jordan created. I felt like he breathed life back into it, and to be honest, I don't know if it would actually rank as my favorite series if Sanderson hadn't taken over. The stories began to drag, Rand's character...also a drag! I know, that's blasphemy, I'm sorry/not sorry. I can't prove this opinion, but I feel like almost all of those books were Sanderdon, with the exception of the last chapter or two of AMoL. It seemed like some of the characters reverted back to how they were earlier in the series, as if the things that had happened to them in books 12 and 13 had never been. Its been over a year (maybe two) since I read it last, but I remember being disappointed that the more mature Nynaeve had reverted to back to uber snarky. Don't get me wrong, she retained a good level of snark even as the series closed, but losing her braid changed her somehow for the better, and all that was lost at the end. The last chapters didn't flow with the rest of the narrative IMO.

Thanks for these interesting opinions! Mike, I had no idea that there are such negative theories, I took it for granted that Robert Jordan had at least some influence.

Ivy, I am totally of your opinion, already after A Gathering Storm I thought: finally some new life to the old series!

I haven't read this series yet, but if/when I do, should I start with #1 The Eye of the World or with the 2 prequels?

I like to do things in the order written myself , but definitely do eye of the world first!! Then you can decide how to mix the others in