The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

This is Week Ten for Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power.

This week's reading assignment is:

Week Ten - January 21st - January 27th -> Chapters THIRTY FIVE, THIRTY SIX, THIRTY SEVEN, and THIRTY EIGHT p. 372 - 424

THIRTY FIVE - The Air of Enchantment!, THIRTY SIX - The People Were Never More Happy, THIRTY SEVEN - A Deep, Dark, and Widespread Conspiracy, and THIRTY EIGHT - This Damned Embargo

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on November 19th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

A SPECIAL THANK YOU TO RANDOM HOUSE FOR THEIR KINDNESS AND GENEROSITY.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bryan Craig will be moderating this discussion.

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

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Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

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If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

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Glossary:

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

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Bibliography:

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in her research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

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Table of Contents and Syllabus:

The following is a link to the table of contents for the book and the weekly syllabus:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Book as a Whole Thread:

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Welcome,

~~Bryan

by Jon Meacham

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Chapter Thirty Five: The Air of Enchantment!

France got Spain's North American possessions, sparking Jefferson's concerns about Napoleon's intentions, especially in New Orleans. Jefferson sends Monroe to help Robert Livingston buy the large territory for $15 million. Jefferson's cabinet debate its constitutionality, and Jefferson decided an amendment was not needed, especially since it would take too long to ratify it.

About the time the deal was made, Lewis and Clark started their journey West. Federalist were on their heels and Pickering talked about a northern confederacy seceding from the United States.

Chapter Thirty Six: The People Were Never More Happy

Jefferson's most effective weapon of persuasion was small conversations or dinners. Not many Federalist came, but those who did, were impressed by Jefferson.

Jefferson wanted Aaron Burr off the ticket. In July 1804, Hamilton was killed by Burr in a duel, and Jefferson was silent about his reaction, knowing there was an election near. Burr was indicted, but was let go. Burr began to discuss the idea of separating western lands from the U.S.

Jefferson won re-election, but only planned to serve out a second term only. Jefferson was thrilled about getting a shipment from Lewis and Clark.

Spain would not give up Florida, and it was aligned with France. Jefferson supported neutrality in a European war, but he did move to build the country's defenses.

At home, his daughter Polly died after giving birth.

Chapter Thirty Seven: A Deep, Dark, and Widespread Conspiracy

Jefferson's second term was more rocky. John Randolph was breaking away from Jefferson, because he was more a pure Republican. British began to stop American ships to find British deserters, his friend Wythe was poisoned, and Burr continued to talk about the West seceding from the U.S. and possibly putting together a filibuster to make it happen.

Burr was arrested and John Marshall was the presiding judge. Jefferson refused to testify, but let his attorney general access to documents. Burr was acquitted, which angered Jefferson and soured his relations with Marshall and the courts.

Jefferson was under more and more stress with the Burr trial, British impressment, a tooth ache, and his son-in-law feeling he was not getting any attention compared to the other son-in-law.

Chapter Thirty Eight: This Damned Embargo

A major event occurred in June 1807, when the HMS Leopard fired on the USS Chesapeake. Jefferson banned any armed British vessel in U.S. waters and called up state militias. He even purchased guns and ammunition before getting Congressional approval. There was a war scare, and Jefferson was prepared to go to war, but as tempers cooled, Jefferson felt Congress would favor an embargo over war.

In December 1807, Napoleon extended his Berlin Decrees to all other countries, while King George pushed for more impressment seizures. IN the same month, Jefferson signed the embargo into law. At first, people supported it, but over time, smugglers got through and it hurt the Northeast very hard economically. There was talk of disunion again.

Some Republicans saw the embargo as a move of a strong central government over commerce, but the embargo showed Jefferson as a practical politician.

In 1808, Jefferson's Secretary of State, James Madison, won the election for president.

This section covers the Louisiana Purchase. There wasn't a lot of detail, but I liked how Meacham raises the constitutionality issue. Jefferson at heart was willing to do a amendment, but the politician had to act fast and expanded the presidential powers.

I do wish there had been more detail about the Louisiana Purchase; it was, after all, one of the key developments not only of Jefferson's presidency but (arguably, anyway) of our whole history or even world history.

Imagine how different things would be if that vast territory was now either part of France or a former colony of France! It's mind boggling!

I agree, Peter. I can't image having Napoleon in your back yard. It is a real problem.

Why couldn't (or didn't) Jefferson act more forcefully against slavery when he was already president?

Take, for comparison, LBJ's role in civil rights. As a Representative and then as Senator, Johnson was far from a progressive on civil rights - and precisely because he needed to keep getting reelected. But once he was president! Well, that's a different story.

In , Robert A. Caro tells the story magnificently. Here is one speech that marked the change: http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6336/

Peter.....I think that Ann made some very interesting points about the slavery issue in last week's reading assignment.(Post #50) You might want to take a look at those.

Jill - I think I was part of that thread, too, unless I am missing a thread

Peter - Jon Meacham neglected to write about a major opportunity that Jefferson had to take a stand on slavery.

Meacham did not mention at all Jefferson's relationship with Tadeusz Kosciuszko, a Pole who came to America and became a general in the Continental Army. Kosciuszko left $15,000 in a will that Jefferson agreed to execute.

His charge: to free and educate as many slaves as possible, including Jefferson's own.

Jefferson agreed to the will, calling Kosciuszko a true son of liberty. Kosciuszko fled the US because of the Alien and Sedition Acts, and the two kept up correspondence for 20 years. When Kosciuszko died in 1817, Jefferson made up one excuse after another not to execute the will.

William Lloyd Garrison, an abolitionist, said that Jefferson missed a great opportunity setting an example for abolishing slavery.

Kosciuszko's fascinating and principled life is discussed in by Alex Storozynski

Very interesting information, Mary.

Peter wrote: "Why couldn't (or didn't) Jefferson act more forcefully against slavery when he was already president?

Take, for comparison, LBJ's role in civil rights. As a Representative and then as Senator, Joh..."

Interesting, Peter. I think a big reason LBJ was successful was that he had enough support with the Civil Rights Movement, liberal members of Congress, and some of the public to make it happen. In the instance you describe, LBJ also had the political skills to get the law passed.

TJ might have had the numbers to pass laws, but in no way could he try to get slavery abolished, I think. He didn't have the support.

Mary wrote: "Peter - Jon Meacham neglected to write about a major opportunity that Jefferson had to take a stand on slavery.

Meacham did not mention at all Jefferson's relationship with Tadeusz Kosciuszko, a P..."

Great information, Mary, thank you.

What are your thoughts about Pickering and a northern confederacy?

Bryan wrote: "TJ might have had the numbers to pass laws, but in no way could he try to get slavery abolished, I think. He didn't have the support. "

Yes, that's why some scholars feel Jefferson didn't execute Kosciuszko's will, even though he would have received money for freeing his slaves. He didn't want to challenge the slave-holding elites, especially in Virginia, of which he was a part. In this case, he also didn't want to lead by example.

In reply to Pickering and the northern confederacy - Can this be seen as another example of the tug of war between central government and states rights? Clearly the Federalists were still in a knot because of Jefferson. This new country was still feeling terrible growing pains. Amazing that Jefferson managed as well as he did. His comment to Gallatin "What is good in this case cannot be effected...we have, therefore, only to find out what will be least bad" regarding the embargo was another example of his trying for control. It gave him time, but did not eliminate war (eventually) and the Federalists anticipated this.

This is a fascinating PBS Frontline interview with Lucia Cinder Stanton, the expert on slavery at Monticello.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontli...

She not only deals with Jefferson's treatment of his own slaves, particularly the Hemings family who occupied a unique place at Monticello, but also with his ideas on slavery and emancipation in general.

I highly recommend it for anyone interested in finding out more about this subject.

G wrote: "In reply to Pickering and the northern confederacy - Can this be seen as another example of the tug of war between central government and states rights? Clearly the Federalists were still in a kno..."

G, it could very well be. I was alarmed that some of the Federalists were thinking about this route...maybe run their own country.

Thanks Ann for the link.

TJ had concern about the constitutionality of the LA. Purchase. Which begs a question, where did our new country gets its laws? Criminal, civil, tort? 1790 and we were a new nation without a code anywhere? Did we continue with our British heritage? Where they written from scratch?
Is there an attorney in the house?

Ann wrote: "This is a fascinating PBS Frontline interview with Lucia Cinder Stanton, the expert on slavery at Monticello.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontli...

She n..."

Great link. Jefferson remains an enigmatic mass of contradictions.

Meacham’s reference to Jefferson’s second term states, “The America of Jefferson was neither Federal or wholly Republican. It was, rather, a marbled blend of the two confected by a practical man of affairs.” (p. 406)

A pragmatic Jefferson, as opposed to an ideological Jefferson, is a very interesting lens through which to view the man. Often, he is accused of being inconsistent, contradictory. What if we viewed him as flexible, responding to the needs of the moment and, perhaps, wise enough to make informed moves based on necessity rather than dogma? The chess player, par excellence.

Joanne wrote: "Meacham’s reference to Jefferson’s second term states, “The America of Jefferson was neither Federal or wholly Republican. It was, rather, a marbled blend of the two confected by a practical man o..."

I hadn't really thought of it that way, but now that you say it, certainly flexibility is a perfect way of describing how he piloted through politics. He did what was necessary and played well against the Federalists. Thanks for this post. It helped clarify for me.

G wrote: "Joanne wrote: "Meacham’s reference to Jefferson’s second term states, “The America of Jefferson was neither Federal or wholly Republican. It was, rather, a marbled blend of the two confected by a ..."

Thanks. Nothing beats clarification! I find the man neither enigmatic nor contradictory. Though, I did not reach that understanding overnight....

Joanne,
I think that is a good point about Jefferson being "flexible." Different situations demanded different responses.

Before he was president, he worried constantly about the expanding power of the national government under the Federalists. Once he was president, he did not hesitate to take a firm stance against the Barbary pirates and double the size of the United States with the Louisiana Purchase. It's different when you are the one in power, isn't it?

As Meacham points out, he was a man who liked control (p. 281-282) and he was very confident.

I wonder if he ever expressed regret about an action he took.

I was very interested in Jefferson's negative attitude towards the judiciary, which the Federalists controlled.(See pages 409-411)

He had a supportive Congress and got the Judiciary Act of 1801 repealed, which is understandable. But he also instigated the impeachment proceeding against Supreme Court Justice Samuel Chase (p. 365). Although he invoked presidential privilege to refuse to testify against Burr in his treason case, Jefferson reported to Congress that Burr's "guilt is placed beyond question" (p. 410) and advised the prosecution in the case.

In those days, the separation of powers was still evolving. Jefferson was against life long appointments. What do you think?

Great comments everyone.

Flexible is a good word. I think Meacham made an earlier argument that a strong central government was not abhorrent during the Articles days. Then when he is VP, I think he respects the government, but within that framework, chooses less centralized power. Then as POTUS, he comes back to the notion of executive authority.

So, would you agree that Meacham might have chipped away at this notion that TJ was a "states rights" guy (with the exception of Kentucky Resolutions)?

Ann wrote: "I was very interested in Jefferson's negative attitude towards the judiciary, which the Federalists controlled.(See pages 409-411)

He had a supportive Congress and got the Judiciary Act of 1801 re..."

Well said, Ann. I think he opposed life terms for judges and the fact that Marshall's court seemed to have a Federalist bent to it. I am reminded of FDR and his court-packing scheme. I don't think TJ got the same back-fire FDR did, and as Meacham argues, it sent a message to the judiciary.

Bryan wrote: "Ann wrote: "I was very interested in Jefferson's negative attitude towards the judiciary, which the Federalists controlled.(See pages 409-411)

He had a supportive Congress and got the Judiciary Ac..."

I researched the number of judges and it was fixed at 9 in 1869, until then it had changed 7 times. The number was rather fluid in the early years and FDR seems to to deserve that back fire.

Yikes, thanks, Jim.

Interesting information, Jim. In general, I admire FDR, but he really blew it on the court packing scheme.

Ann wrote: "I was very interested in Jefferson's negative attitude towards the judiciary, which the Federalists controlled.(See pages 409-411)

He had a supportive Congress and got the Judiciary Act of 1801 re..."

A little trivia here. TJ's impeachment proceedings of Chase can only be outdone by Lincoln's issuing an arrest warrant for Chief Justice Roger B. Taney in 1861. Taney had ruled against Lincoln's attemp to suspend habeas corpus and Lincoln's response was to have him arrested. (He never was arrested) Politics can be amusing at times.

It could harp back to Meacham's argument about TJ's love for control. He couldn't control the courts and it frustrated him.

I found it interesting how they knew they got a huge bargain with the Louisiana Purchase and needed to get it ratified before the offer could be challenged. What a huge amount of land to acquire in such a peaceful way.

And, Aaron Burr is quite an interesting character. I have to make a note to read more about him.

There is some interesting information about Burr at the following link, especially regarding the duel between him and Alexander Hamilton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr%E2%...

David wrote: "And, Aaron Burr is quite an interesting character. I have to make a note to read more about him."

David, have you read Fallen Founder: The Life of Aaron Burrby Nancy Isenberg? If not, I would highly recommend. Burr gets the full biography, and though I would argue that Isenberg might be a little too one-sided in terms of how she feels about Burr, it is definitely worth a read. I would also suggest Burr by Gore Vidal. That is of course, fiction, but Vidal does do research, so its not entirely false. Also, if you want to read about founding fathers talking smack about each other, then Burr is definitely a good place to start!

And in our Glossary:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Great, Cynthia, great options. Don't forget to add book covers, author photos, and links:

Nancy Isenberg

Gore Vidal

Ann wrote: "This is a fascinating PBS Frontline interview with Lucia Cinder Stanton, the expert on slavery at Monticello.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontli...

She n..." Thanks, Ann, I'll look it up.

Joanne wrote: "Meacham’s reference to Jefferson’s second term states, “The America of Jefferson was neither Federal or wholly Republican. It was, rather, a marbled blend of the two confected by a practical man o..."
I agree, Joanne. He is very flexible, pays attention to what is going on and makes an informed decision, sometimes of the lesser of two evils.

Cynthia wrote: "David wrote: "And, Aaron Burr is quite an interesting character. I have to make a note to read more about him."

David, have you read Fallen Founder: The Life of Aaron Burrby Nancy Isenberg? If no..."

Thank you, I think I have seen that book. I'll have to check it out.

Happy reading :-)

As I read my TJ assignments I am at the same time reading a bio of Admiral W. Leahy. Leahy remarks in this book on the many professional naval colleges required of each rising officer. With each progression in rank an officer is schooled in the command (leadership) of ever increasing responsibilities.
Back to our TJ reading and I'm reminded of TJ's propensity to invite friends and foes to his evening meals as a means of breaking down the barriers of misunderstanding. TJ was especially gifted at these events because he could, with interest, socialize on many subjects.
It's a shame that our political leaders are not somehow required to attend leadership schooling similar to the navy above. And, if such schooling was required there would have to be a course in TJ's art of disassembling political polarity with earnest (and unguarded) conversation.

Thanks, Jim. I agree, we could us some TJ small conversation strategy today. In the past, members of Congress on both aisles socialized, but now many go home to their states and districts. This is part of the problem.

TJ used this method very effectively.

Jim wrote: "TJ had concern about the constitutionality of the LA. Purchase. Which begs a question, where did our new country gets its laws? Criminal, civil, tort? 1790 and we were a new nation without a code a..."

Jim, I think Congress and the states were writing the laws as needed even during the American Revolution.

I thought it was interesting to know TJ refused to appear at Burr's trial but sent pertinent documents to the attorney general. We have the beginnings of executive privilege.

Cynthia, thanks for sharing the information about Aaron Burr, I can't wait to read the book.

Cynthia wrote: "Cynthia, thanks for sharing the information about Aaron Burr, I can't wait to read the book."

I agree.

Do you get the impression the embargo was the better choice out of two bad choices?

Bryan wrote: "Do you get the impression the embargo was the better choice out of two bad choices?"

Yes. The alternative was war, and the country was not prepared for war (continuing problem with us in the US, I think).