A Good Thriller discussion

British Intelligence: two authors, Ian Fleming and John le Carré, have brought us a wealth of espionage thriller entertainment through novels and their film adaptations.

From Fleming’s ‘Casino Royal’ to ‘Octopussy and The Living Daylights’; from Le Carré’s ‘Call for the Dead’ to ‘A Delicate Truth’; whether you prefer the action hero or the ‘morally ambiguous functionary’ you can share your thoughts here.

If you have a favourite character, scene or line of dialogue from Scaramanga or Le Chiffre, from Jerry Westerby or Toby Esterhase…

If you have a favourite film portrayal: Richard Burton’s Alec Leamas, Alec Guinness’ George Smiley, Philip Seymour Hoffman’s Gunther Bachmann, or whether you’re a Connery, Moore, Brosnan or Craig person…

If you’ve reviewed a book, or have a moment on page or film to enthuse about...

...you can post it here.

Thread by line and a 'Tinker, Tailor...' review:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

And not neglecting Frederick Forsyth:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Are we going to have a topic discussing the movie versions? Just curious. :)

Amber, Both the books and the film versions can be discussed here :)

Cool.

Has anyone else tumbled to the fact that one of the reasons Sir Christopher Lee got the role of Francisco Scaramanga, aside from his obvious talent, was that Ian Fleming and Chris' stepfather were cousins?

I used to read Le Carre but I just got tired of his heroes always getting killed or failing or being disappointed. The final straw was Magnus Pimm in A Perfect Spy. I just don't want to waste my time getting invested in a character like that. I'll never read another Le Carre novel. I'll take Fleming any day.

Amber wrote: "Cool.

Has anyone else tumbled to the fact that one of the reasons Sir Christopher Lee got the role of Francisco Scaramanga, aside from his obvious talent, was that Ian Fleming and Chris' stepfathe..."

Hadn’t… but I read Scaramanga the character was named after a child Fleming fought with at school, though it sounds like an unusual name for a British public school boy! What was the name of his little side-kick in the film version? Think he was in ‘Fantasy Island’?

Kenneth wrote: "I used to read Le Carre but I just got tired of his heroes always getting killed or failing or being disappointed. The final straw was Magnus Pimm in A Perfect Spy. I just don't want to waste my ti..."

Kenneth, Do know what you mean. When I read ‘The Honourable Schoolboy’ recently there’s a somewhat crushing moment when Jerry Westerby gets it. Happens in ‘The Spy Who Came In From The Cold’ and ‘The Constant Gardener’ but George Smiley does survive and win his victory in the Karla trilogy…

Paul, I don't remember the name of the actor you're talking about but I know he also played the title character in Shelley Duvall's FAIRIE TALE THEATER version of RUMPLESTILTSKIN. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faerie_T...

Never mind... Found his name! Hervé Villechaize ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herv%C3%... )! Maybe the name of his character in THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN will be in the article?

I love Sir Alec Guinness' portrayal of George Smiley, but the new movie of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy was excellent also.

Amber, Herve Villechaize will always be famous for me for screaming out "Da Plane! Da Plane!" every weekend on Fantasy Island.

Another great Cold War spy was Len Deighton's Bernie Samson.

I sympathise with Kenneth, though I do appreciate Le Carre's gritty realism.

I've always felt that Fleming penned his schoolboy fantasies, and I haven't read a Bond book since I was a kid. Still, they were good adventures, I suppose.

Kirsten: That's one of the things the wikipedia article implied too.

Graham: If I want so-called "gritty realism," I'll read the newspaper, listen to NPR or watch the TV news at my local dive bar, thank you very much.

Kenneth wrote: "I used to read Le Carre but I just got tired of his heroes always getting killed or failing or being disappointed. The final straw was Magnus Pimm in A Perfect Spy. I just don't want to waste my ti..."

The films are fantastic though. Tailor of Panama. Spy Who Came in From the Cold. Tinker, Tailor, Soldier Spy, and most recently, A Most Wanted Man.

Want happy endings? Watch the romantic fluff that Hollywood puts out. But these bear no relationship to reality. LeCarre's films reflect the grim realities of life. And last time I checked, life is full of disappointments.

Okay, my comment on the Bond films. Until very recently, they were a pile of sexist crap. Bond and big tits. Great music tho, I have to admit.

Casino Royale, with Daniel Craig was pretty good though.

Susan wrote: "Kenneth wrote: "I used to read Le Carre but I just got tired of his heroes always getting killed or failing or being disappointed. The final straw was Magnus Pimm in A Perfect Spy. I just don't wan..."

If you want to read depressing "grim realities of life" stuff, go for it. But don't ridicule me if I have different tastes.

Susan wrote: "Kenneth wrote: "I used to read Le Carre but I just got tired of his heroes always getting killed or failing or being disappointed. The final straw was Magnus Pimm in A Perfect Spy. I just don't wan..."

I have to agree. If you're looking for cheer, you shouldn't be reading Le Carre. I like them because of the intrigue and the sheer intricacy of plot. I especially liked the Smiley books because they gave you a real sense of the Cold War.

A little cheer... Nick Nack. Roger Moore put him in a suitcase.

Susan wrote: "Kenneth wrote: "I used to read Le Carre but I just got tired of his heroes always getting killed or failing or being disappointed. The final straw was Magnus Pimm in A Perfect Spy. I just don't wan..."

That's what I meant. If I want to read or hear about life's disappointments, I'll read the newspaper, listen to KWMU (the St. Louis, MO. NPR affiliate) or watch the local news at the dive bar a block from my apartment, Susan.

Susan, again: What do you mean "until recently?" Aren't they STILL full of sexist crap?

Kenneth, maybe she thought you were a little TOO enthusiastic about it?

Paul, The suitcase thing was also done in the Dennis Quaid movie INNERSPACE.

Amber wrote: "Susan wrote: "Kenneth wrote: "I used to read Le Carre but I just got tired of his heroes always getting killed or failing or being disappointed. The final straw was Magnus Pimm in A Perfect Spy. I ..."

Why are you on this thread?

Let's be friendly here, gracious if we can with differing views and keep group etiquette :)

Kenneth - tell us what you like about Fleming?

Susan: That's none of your business unless I choose to tell.

You know, I love espionage. Yes, it may not be for everyone. But there was just something about the Cold War for espionage authors. Another great era was the pre-WW I or pre-WW II espionage thriller.

My favorite Bond movies are Goldfinger, The Spy Who Loved Me, Tomorrow Never Dies. I've only read a couple of the books, though. But they are a wonderful snapshot of their times.

Le Carre is wonderful, also, like Fleming, he was a former intelligence operative, so they have a certain credibility.

A bad one is what I heard but I don't know if that accusation is true or not, Kirsten.

Which one?

Ian Fleming.

Well, he wasn't the best. But he did base Bond on some real spies.

Nothing like a little negativity to spice up a Friday night.

I wasn't being negative. I was mentioning what I had heard of Ian Fleming's PERCEIVED lack of espionage skills.

It’s known that Fleming worked in Naval Intelligence during World War 2. It seems he was pretty creative in his schemes for operations, like one involving dropping the corpse of an airman with false papers in the uniform pockets for the Axis powers to find. He formed a unit of commandos who seized enemy documents when locations were captured by the Allies. He was a desk man directing operations, more of an 'M' than a licensed ’00’ man, and he used these experiences in his writing to give it an informed depth. ‘From Russia With Love’ was listed by Time Magazine as one of JFK’s 10 favourite books… and I enjoyed it too. It’s got intrigue, travel, espionage field work and a slow build to tense climax…

Here’s a line or two from it: “The great trains are going out all over Europe, one by one, but still, three times a week, the Orient Express thunders superbly over the 1,400 miles of glittering steel track between Istanbul and Paris… Under the arc-lights, the long-chassied German locomotive panted quietly with the labored breath of a dragon dying of asthma. Each heavy breath seemed certain to be the last. Then came another.”

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8570...

I don't know how relevant this would be to the discussion at hand, Paul, but Kevin J. Anderson, author of the Jedi Academy trilogy; wrote a book about a 1950's era team up between Superman and Batman where he said that James Bond was Bruce Wayne's favorite fictional spy.

The book was called ENEMIES AND ALLIES: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

Can wehave a moment of silence for Francisco Scaramanga?

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq54j...

Amber wrote: "Can wehave a moment of silence for Francisco Scaramanga?

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq54j..."

Indeed...

Francisco Scaramanga: A duel between titans... my golden gun against your Walther PPK.

James Bond: One bullet against my six?

Francisco Scaramanga: I only need one, Mr. Bond.

In an interview with John le Carré, broadcast in October 2008 on BBC Four, Mark Lawson asked him to name a Best of le Carré list of books; the novelist answered: The Spy Who Came in from the Cold, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, The Tailor of Panama and The Constant Gardener. What would yours be?

Constant Gardner. I really wanted to like Tinker, tailor but it didn't appeal to me.

Tracy wrote: "Constant Gardner. I really wanted to like Tinker, tailor but it didn't appeal to me."

The film or the book?

Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "I love Sir Alec Guinness' portrayal of George Smiley, but the new movie of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy was excellent also.

Amber, Herve Villechaize will always be famous for me for screaming out "Da..."

Len Deighton's Harry Palmer has always remained with me...

I loved The Tailor of Panama, the book and the film.

Tracy wrote: "Constant Gardner. I really wanted to like Tinker, tailor but it didn't appeal to me."

Haven't read the book yet, but the film was beautifully photographed...

Alas, I read The Constant Gardner and liked it a lot but never saw the film.

Very interesting interview with John le Carré on YouTube here. I particularly enjoyed hearing him talk about how Alec Guinness worked his way into the skin of the character George Smiley...

http://youtu.be/g_BYdOh0LZ8

Paul, I just watched the interview ... really great, which makes me want to watch the film. They're talking about the original Tinker, Tailor ... film, right?

Any idea where I can get it?

Susan wrote: "Paul, I just watched the interview ... really great, which makes me want to watch the film. They're talking about the original Tinker, Tailor ... film, right?

Any idea where I can get it?"

I think Acorn distributes it.

http://www.acornonline.com/video-genr...

You can also get it at ShopPBS.com or Amazon.com.

Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "Susan wrote: "Paul, I just watched the interview ... really great, which makes me want to watch the film. They're talking about the original Tinker, Tailor ... film, right?

Any idea where I can g..."

Yes, but it's very pricy ... :(

Susan wrote: "Paul, I just watched the interview ... really great, which makes me want to watch the film. They're talking about the original Tinker, Tailor ... film, right?

Any idea where I can get it?"

Susan,
This link has got Tinker... And the fantastic Smiley's People on one DVD at a reasonable price....

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-list...

Wow, that's terrific, but it's only on Amazon UK. And I live in the US ... don't think they'll ship it to me ... okay, I just went back and they do ship internationally ... So 2.84 LB, translates to ?? dollars? plus shipping ... okay about $10.00 w/shipping ... not a bad price indeed.

Susan wrote: "Wow, that's terrific, but it's only on Amazon UK. And I live in the US ... don't think they'll ship it to me ... okay, I just went back and they do ship internationally ... So 2.84 LB, translates t..."

Hope it works out. Do let us know your thoughts as you watch them!

Thanks, Paul, I'm not sure how soon I'll get to them, but I'm looking forward to it.

So, the first glimpse of the new Bond film 'Spectre' is making the evening news in the UK today...

http://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/cel...

Paul wrote: "So, the first glimpse of the new Bond film 'Spectre' is making the evening news in the UK today...

http://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/cel......"

Oooh, looks great, can't wait to see it!

With a new Bond film coming out, and being new to this discussion thread, I was wondering what people thought about the differences (and similarities) between the Bond in film and the Bond portrayed in the novels by Flemming?

In my opinion, the literary Bond is a much grittier, flawed, and at times, more of a coarse individual compared to the relatively refined characters portrayed by Connery, Brosnan, et cetera. Craig is different, I think.

I really like Daniel Craig as Bond. It's hard to compare to Connery and Brosnan because i saw those films so many years ago. As I recall, I didn't care much for Brosnan as Bond (tho I generally like him as an actor). Connery seemed to play it almost for laughs ... the whiz-bang battle toys ... the sex-pots he got to romance.

Seems to me Craig is a better actor than either of them, at least what we expect from actors now. Tough enough not to back down in the face of danger, smart enough to thwart the bad guys/gals, with a hint of vulnerability underneath.