The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of June 1st – June 7th, we are reading Chapter Nine, p. 283 - 302
The Wickedest Woman in History of the book Cleopatra: A Life by Stacy Schiff.

The twelfth week's reading assignment is:

Week Twelve - June 1st – June 7th
Chapter Nine, p. 283 - 302
IX: The Wickedest Woman in History

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on March 16th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.

This weekly thread will be opened up on June 1st.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Jose.
Welcome,

~Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Stacy Schiff

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed. Since we are discussing the same time period and the same people will be discussed in this book as in the Liberation Trilogy - please utilize those three glossary parts. They will be very helpful to you and will provide a wealth of knowledge.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...--

by Stacy Schiff

Directions on how to participate in book discussions and how to follow the t's and c's - look at directives given for the discussion Landslide - What Do I Do Next?

I will modify these directives as we go along but for now utilize the information here.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

Everyone, for the week of June 1st – June 7th , we are reading Chapter Nine - The Wickedest Woman in History, p. 283 - 302.

The twelfth week’s reading assignment is:

Week Twelve - June 1st – June 7th, 2015
Chapter Nine: The Wickedest Woman in History, p. 283 - 302
Note: This week's reading starts with the sentence "Cleopatra made one last conquest..."

Chapter Overview and Summary

Chapter Nine - The Wickedest Woman in History

A few days before Octavian was to depart for Rome, taking Cleopatra and her children with him, she asked for leave to make offerings at Antony’s grave. Afterwards she returned to the mausoleum, where she had a bath and a meal, including a basket of figs. She had her guard carry a letter to Octavian, and then dismissed all her retinue except for her companions Charmion and Iras. The letter was a request to be buried at Antony’s side. Fearing she had somehow committed suicide, he sent some men to check on her, and they found that she was dead, along with Iras, Charmion lingering just a bit longer. Folklore has it that there was an asp hidden in the figs, but surely it would have been discovered by the guards. Most probably she was able to smuggle in some poison despite being so closely watched.

Octavian was thus deprived of having Cleopatra walk in his triumph in Rome, but her three children by Antony were paraded in the triumph. Caesarion was to have escaped to India, but his tutor convinced him to return to Alexandria where he was killed. Cleopatra ruled Egypt for 21 years, and fairly successfully. Egypt now passed to Rome, under the exclusive control of Octavian.

Folks, we are kicking off the twelfth week of the Cleopatra discussion - we welcome you to this discussion which will last for a few months. There is no rush and we are happy to have all of you with us. I look forward to reading your posts in the months ahead.

It's too bad the story about the asp is probably untrue, because it's so dramatic. All the Cleopatra movies would be a bit less interesting without the snake bite.

Personally, I'm glad Octavian didn't get to take Cleopatra to walk in his triumph, considering how hated she was in Rome. Her three children by Antony, who were in the triumph, were actually pretty well treated, being raised by Octavia, who sounds like a saint.

Here's my review:

Ancient history never holds my attention quite as well as modern history does, so it is a testament to Stacy Schiff that I got so much out of this book. Not that she needs my endorsement - her book won the Pulitzer Prize! But having said that, I gave it only a 4. Perhaps that reflects badly on me, but even though some parts were riveting, particularly the conclusion, other parts were a struggle to get through.

The main point of the book is to present the shrewd leadership Cleopatra showed at every step of her reign and contrast it with the way she is usually portrayed: as a seductress. It seems she had genuine feelings for both Julius Caesar and Marc Antony, but she surpassed each of them in diplomacy (though not in military command). They were her lovers, but they were also her partners, on an equal footing, in empire-building. History and art have not recorded her that way, but that’s because history is written by the victors, and because, as the author concludes, it’s easier for people to accept a woman wielding power through use of her beauty rather than her brains.

Cleopatra lived in a cutthroat, violent world where assassination plots among the power elite were expected. She was no humanitarian; she had a few family members killed to get to her position. She was also willing to broker with the enemy when she had to. But after reading this book, I can’t help but be impressed by her brains and courage. Everyone, especially women, should learn the real facts of her extraordinary life.

Excellent review, Kressel. I'm really glad you liked the book, and I hope you will dip further into ancient history. I find Rome endlessly fascinating.

Good job guys

I too feel it was positive that Cleopatra avoided to go to Rome - to be a real long term captive - and I think that the dastardly acts she did to get and keep power were successful because she did unto others before they did those acts unto her.

It is a tribute to Ms. Schiff that I was able to get through all this and keep it on a path in my mind - much sides of Wikipedia.

I will try to read the afterward before my comments on the entire book.

Rome is complicated enough and the Egyptian sidebar helps explain it but doesn't make it less complicated.

I agree Vincent - she did a commendable job with the primary sources she had.