Sci-Fi & Fantasy Girlz discussion

I've been following the Statistical Analysis Of Rape In Game Of Thrones thread and it got me thinking...

Is there a good way and a bad way to write about rape and other sexual violence? Can it be written in way that's not exploitive? Have you come across any examples in Sci-Fi and Fantasy where sexual violence is not just a tool but treated with sensitivity?

Exploitive portrayals of sexual violence is often excused in name of realistic, gritty, settings. While it's true that rape is a reality for many people, past and present, I think there are other ways to develop settings and characters.
I'm currently about 40% through King's Dragon by Kate Elliot which is set in a pseudo-medieval fantasy world. It's a great example of depicting sexual abuse in a way that's empathetic and gives the victim some agency. Rape is not treated in a callous or casual way and yet it still succeeds in conveying the grim reality of the medieval setting.

Eliene wrote: "I've been following the Statistical Analysis Of Rape In Game Of Thrones thread and it got me thinking...

Is there a good way and a bad way to write about rape and other sexual violence? Can it b..."

I believe there are no excuses in fiction. No fiction author is compelled to do anything. Everything they write is an act of will. They choose to create a "realistic" or "gritty" settings which they depict however they choose. I think they need to embrace the responsibility for making those choices.

If a fiction author wants to write about rape and other sexual violence, I need to respect their reasons for doing so, and they need to do so skillfully, if I'm going to read them. Otherwise, I'll read history. (Which I do. I read little fiction these days.)

Eliene wrote: "Is there a good way and a bad way to write about rape and other sexual violence? Can it be written in way that's not exploitive? Have you come across any examples in Sci-Fi and Fantasy where sexual violence is not just a tool but treated with sensitivity?"

That's a tough one. It's definitely possible. People argue about The Color Purple but I think that is a good example of how it might be done well. (Others may disagree....)

In the realm of fantasy/SF, I can only think of a few cases where it "makes sense" in the context of the story. I would suggest that there's an added level of sensitivity/responsibility for authors of those genres in that they are less obligated to portray a "real world" scenario in their work. It's true that even the most outlandish F/SF is essentially a metaphor for our own lives at some level, but in a world where dragons, elves, talking animals, aliens, intelligent robots or whatever fantastical elements exist, then there's a responsibility to deal with sexual politics on a particular plane. After all, in a world with magic and unlimited human potential, traditional gender roles and the sexual politics of the real world simply need not apply. Inserting them in the face of outlandish, unreal, supernatural content is a statement on the moral quality of those real world roles, and depending on how the author frames that insertion, it is more problematic than it would be in, say, a murder mystery. Similarly, the role of SF as predictive of the future means that if one includes an exploitative scene of sexual violence in one's product then one is saying, on some level, that progress when it comes to issues of sexual violence is doomed in the foreseeable future that the author depicts.

Arguably, all fiction is subject to that kind of thing on some level, but the issue is more stark in the F/SF genres.

The scenes of sexual violence in Deerskin would, I think, meet your qualifications. It's a good book, based on existing folktales even if the scenes in question are hard to read. Plus, Ms. McKinley has a strong command of the language--if somewhat rococo for my personal everyday tastes.

I'd suggest a bad example would be Heinlein's Friday, which is... well, I wrote a review. Read it at your inclination.

Can it be non-exploitative? Yes, I think that it can. But I think that it is a lot harder to do than most think. I know that one side of the argument is that we shouldn't be allowed to "blink" or "turn away" from the trauma in a story and that can be a reason that graphic rape, torture, or murder are depicted. The victim doesn't get to ignore the gruesome reality they are faced with so why spare a reader? I can get this line of reasoning but I think that it can very easily get into place where it's more exciting to push the boundaries for the author which I think leads to exploitative scenes. And when you get right down to it, it's fairly rare that I've read a scene that describes sexual violence in a way that I felt made the scene of the violence itself completely necessary. Are the descriptions of how she struggled adding anything, or how much he cried? Those reactions would be assumed by most people so having a scene where they are laid out in detail just seems... unneeded at best.

As far as good examples of it, there are not a lot I can think of that I've read. Especially any where it's treated with sensitivity. The best cases, if you want to call them that, it's more of the 'character overcoming horrible abuse through inner strength'.

In the Star Trek Next Gen, Tasha Yar grew up on basically a lawless planet and at least part of her backstory is escaping from rape gangs that ran wild and while they said she escaped all the time, whenever she had flashbacks, it was usually running from the gangs or talking about losing her sister to them (I think, it's been a while). Her becoming Security Chief was shown as a 'girl from a rough planet making it against the odds' sort of thing which was more positive than a lot of portrayals. Not exactly what Eliene was talking about but for a network show to even say rape in relation to a character seemed pretty important to her character at the time and it felt like they tried. Sadly, that's one of the few instances I can even think of that's barely related to explicit depictions of sexual assault being used that seemed to not use it as a throw away or exploitative kind of thing.

I think the whole phrase "Non-exploitative Sexual Violence" is as oxymoronic as either of the two following phrases "jumbo shrimp" and "thundering silence."

Need I say more?

If I want "gritty" and "realistic" in my SF&F I'll stop reading it and read the fracking newspapers or watch the TV news at my local dive bar instead.

Amber wrote: "I think the whole phrase "Non-exploitative Sexual Violence" is as oxymoronic as either of the two following phrases "jumbo shrimp" and "thundering silence."

Need I say more?"

Would you prefer non-gratuitous? While there are clearly differences in the way sexual violence in fiction is depicted, people's subjective reactions will vary. But any individual's subjective reaction is particular to them.

If one wants a broader perspective, immediately the question of metrics and definitions raises its head. How are "good" and "bad" to be defined? How are motives to be determined? How is the willing suspension of disbelief to be dealt with?

This last is a key, because in fantasy and sci-fi, willing suspension is the crux of the whole exercise. This applies to things like violence, including sexual violence, just as much as dragons. In this sense, a gratuitous depiction is less likely to violate willing suspension because gratuitous depictions tend to have less emotional impact. So having engaged the readers/viewers willing suspension and primed them on what to expect, the creator delivers in a "dose" calibrated (in their judgement) to meet those expectations.

Obviously some people (like me and others here) are unwilling to suspend disbelief. So we see it in a different light. Which is a long way of saying that trying to address the question beyond a personal and subjective reaction is not going to prove very fruitful.

Would it be more useful to list the works that have supportive and healthy sexuality? Probably in another thread.

Amber wrote: "I think the whole phrase "Non-exploitative Sexual Violence" is as oxymoronic as either of the two following phrases "jumbo shrimp" and "thundering silence."

Need I say more?

If I want "gritty" an..."

Hey, I love jumbo shrimp. And give me a good thunderous silence. There's nothing better than a storm followed by eerie calm for setting the mood of a good story ;)

Owen: IMHO ALL sexual violence is exploitative! It's ALL gratuitous...even Broud's rape of Ayla in the original novel version of THE CLAN OF THE CAVE BEAR! That said, I can occasionally see the reasoning of the author behind why he or she (in the case of Broud and Ayla) wrote that. The end result of the rape wasn't gratuitous because it eventually allowed Ayla as a grown woman in her mid or late 30's to become *spoiler alert!* Zelandoni of the Ninth Cave of the Zelandonii in the final book of the EARTH'S CHILDREN series, THE LAND PAINTED CAVES which was the WORST book of the series.*End spoiler alert!*

Matthew: Both phrases sound ridiculous when you say them as Danny DeVito's character was telling his US Army students in a remedial English class in one of his movies. Forgot the title of the movie, though.

On the history of the use of thunderous silence -- it was used to describe the silence after thunder that is to say the staggering difference in sound levels between thunder and not-thunder. It is not really an oxymoron.

Amber wrote: "Owen: IMHO ALL sexual violence is exploitative! It's ALL gratuitous...even Broud's rape of Ayla in the original novel version of THE CLAN OF THE CAVE BEAR! That said, I can occasionally see the r..."

Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the topic. (Never read Clan of the Cave Bear myself -- no opinion there.)

Cameron: That wasn't the implication in the movie I mentioned in my previous post.

Owen: If you ever do and then decide to read the sequels, be prepared for a gratuitous amount of both sex and info dump. I find the info dump to be worse than the sex. An example of info dump: You read ONE description of mammoths, you've read them all...she doesn't NEED to keep repeating it throughout the series...especially multiple times in THE MAMMOTH HUNTERS, the THIRD book of the series. Another piece of info dump? She dosen't NEED to keep repeating the fact that no one in her series, except Ayla, connects sex with pregnancy.

And THAT brings me back, sort of, to the original topic. Eilene, does the author of the study you mentioned in the start of this thread count the number of times pregnancy occurs as a result of the sexual violence in both the show and the books?

Amber wrote: "Owen: If you ever do and then decide to read the sequels, be prepared for a gratuitous amount of both sex and inf..."

I wasn't aware infodumps had such a long pedigree. (Of course, some people hold I'm guilty of infodumping, as well. No mammoths yet, though. Maybe we should work up to that.)

From all I've head of them (which is substantial), I doubt those books would make it very high on my to-read list.

The problem, in a series, is to be sure that people who are picking up this volume understand it just as well as the people who read the previous books, however many there were. It takes some skill to know what you can skip and what you have to tell the reader.

LOL> Owen, when I mentioned mammoths, I was referring to the fact that once she describes what a mammoth looks like in the mammoth hunt sequence of THE CLAN OF THE CAVE BEAR, she mentions it at LEAST three more times...in EACH OF THE FIVE SEQUELS!

DITTO the descriptions of how loess soil is formed. Double ditto the formation of glaciers...Triple ditto the invention of the atlatl (spear thrower)...ad inifintum.

Only ONCE, that I can recall, does she mention the Zelandonii practice of castrating rapists... .

Brenda, if you as a writer haven't figured it out by the third repeat of the same information in the same book you've already described a glacier/mammoth/loess soil/atl atl creation in, you're NEVER going to learn it. That's the part I couldn't stand: it was the MULTIPLE repeats in the same book...sometimes just a mere fifty pages AFTER the previous incident in that particular book!

Oh dear, that's very bad. (I may have read the first one, but never went on to any of the others, and now remember nothing of it.) What that sounds like is padding -- she had a word count and was on a death march to meet it.

That's pretty much what I was thinking, Brenda.

Those books are awful thick....

I've never actually read any of them, but I know folks who've gone through them 3-5 times.

Now you know why they're so thick, Gary! I used to be one of those. The best part of the whole series is when (Spoiler alert!) Wolf kills someone who is trying to kill Ayla (spoiler end) in the fourth book.

Repeating my previous question to Eilene: Does the report you read analyze the number of times a victim of GoT's sexual violence has gotten pregnant?

Amber wrote: "Repeating my previous question to Eilene: Does the report you read analyze the number of times a victim of GoT's sexual violence has gotten pregnant?"

I have read the same article re: GOT sexual violence and no I do not think it goes into much of the specifics at all to be honest.

It really is just a tally of what is either rape acts or rape victims - essentially counting each time someone refers to or is the victim of a rape or another form of sexual violence.

As someone who has read the books I was surprised by the count, I definitely don't think it appears as consistently as the numbers suggest. Yes there are several rape "scenes" but for the most part I think events are alluded to or referenced as past occurrences or potential threats of violence.

Obviously, this does not discount the seriousness of representing rape in texts - which is a very tricky thing. I don't think it should be excluded from texts altogether, but it does need to be presented in a way that is realistic (in the sense of the act as a serious crime ) and also in a way that does not exploit women (sexualising the act or depicting it in a titilating manner). Representing sexual violence in these more "positive" ways has the potential to create important dialogue on the seriousness of the issue and promote awareness.

An example that comes to mind is Tender Morsels by Margo Lanagan, which deals with some traumatic instances of sexual violence (and the resulting pregnancies) but in a way that does not exploit or make entertainment of the event.

I am actually doing a PhD on violence in fantasy, so for me it is great to see that people are questioning these inclusions & not just accepting them as part of the package of fantasy...

Caitlin wrote: "I am actually doing a PhD on violence in fantasy ..."

Now THAT sounds like something worth reading! :)

Caitlin wrote: "Amber wrote: "Repeating my previous question to Eilene: Does the report you read analyze the number of times a victim of GoT's sexual violence has gotten pregnant?"

I have read the same article re..."

Thank you, Caitlin.

That, Paul, is why I don't watch any horror movie made AFTER the 1980's, when they WEREN'T solely vehicles for torture porn!

And yes, that could trigger quite a few discussions. Re: "On the other hand, I could write a story about someone being drunk and climbing into someone's bed in college and having their way with the sleeping person before they were fully conscious--and depending on the genders of the two parties, different dialogue would ensue, which would lead to very compelling conversations."

Any rap song ever? Did you see Weird Al Yankovic's Amish Paradise? Wait, that's a parody of a hip hop song.

hmms. Well, there's Andy Samberg's Blizzard Man song. Well, he does mention having lots of sex with girls after they are done. hmms. And humping women. And "his thingie gets excited".

Blizzard Man 2 doesn't seem to have violence or sex. Oops, the second take involves visiting a strip club. hmms. And a lady gets hurt when he throws silver dollars at her.

Paul wrote: "LOL. :). I enjoy rap, though I couldn't tell you why, honestly. I think I like linguistic complexity--why is why I can't stop listening, even though the lyrics are often violent or misogynistic tir..."

"Linguistic complexity"? What STYLE rap are you LISTENING to, Paul?! 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999ad infinitum% of all mainstream rap is about rape, plunder and pillage...in other words its something a VIKING would have sung! Why do you think the Lindisfanre nuns cut their noses off?!

Sorry...I'm digressing.

Lexi: never heard of anyone you just mentioned EXCEPT "Weird Al."

Andy Samberg is a comedian who, I think, got his start (as in start on being recognizable) on Saturday Night Live (which is where he did his 'Blizzard Man' skits), and is currently starring on Brooklyn 99 (a comedy on Fox).

Oh, and he hosted the 2015 Emmys.

That explains it, Lexi: I don't watch TV at home. I can't afford cable or satellite.

Paul wrote: "Amber,
I'll respond in a separate thread about music--I'd hate to waylay this one too far :)"

No kidding.

Paul wrote: "On this topic: I am concerned that GRRM's success is going to embolden others to screw up fantasy literature for years to come."

GRRM started the series in the 90's and there has been a high level of sexual violence in the genre even before that. Personally, I have actually enjoyed his series and I do not think it is exploitative as people make it out to be. Yes, there are some troubling aspects, but that can be said about a lot of fantasy (and other genres). I can understand that the success of the novels and tv series may encourage others to replicate it—but again, that has been happening for a long time too!

Financially speaking, there's no such thing anymore as a "cheap thrill ride," even in writing.

Sex sells, Paul...even the violent kind.

I started watching Jessica Jones this weekend on Netflix, and I have to say I'm *very* impressed with the way they are handling everything, including the rape (physical and mental/metaphorical) that hangs heavy over the series.