Victorians! discussion

This week we will be discussiong the following chapters:

Lurking Mischief,
Allan as a Landed Gentleman,
The Claims of Society,
The March of Events,
Mother Oldershaw on Her Guard,
Midwinter in Disguise and
The Plot Thickens

The last of these had me giggling - surely Collins' little joke??!! If this plot gets any thicker, it'll be rock solid...

SO.... We finally meet a couple of intriguing female characters, although only via their correspondence so far.

Meanwhile, Allan is upsetting the locals left, right and centre with the exception of the Milroys. They seem genuine enough, but the ailing mother is another mystery ingredient to add to the pot. Poor Midwinter - he is doing his best to ensure that Allan is surrounded by friends and trying to avoid him becoming isolated (and therefore more open to attack) but is failing miserably.

Incidentally, Thorpe Ambrose in Norfolk is an invented place, although Collins did travel around the area to research the novel. Winterton On Sea comes up most frequently in the searches I've made as being the most likely spot that Thorpe Ambrose and the surrounding area was based on. You can find pictures of modern-day Winterton here: http://www.tournorfolk.co.uk/winterto... and if you click on "What to see" you can find more general pictures of the Norfolk coast, including historic buildings and stately homes. Could one of them have been the inspiration for Thorpe Ambrose?

It is all the stuff of melodrama, like those early black and white movies with damsels tied to railway lines and villains twirling their moustaches.

MadgeUK wrote: "It is all the stuff of melodrama, like those early black and white movies with damsels tied to railway lines and villains twirling their moustaches."

It is, but for me it's great fun.

Me too, I love melodrama Folks may remember that Dickens used the bleak inhospitable coast of Norfolk for the scary opening of Great Expectations:

https://youtu.be/eXyo68s-f1E

I enjoyed that little exchange of letters between the two villainous women and their scheming, manipulative selves. Will Lydia Gwilt be a match for Miss Milroy? I'm curious how that will go down, especially since the later will be acting as a "governess." I suppose we'll see round one at the picnic.

It is melodrama, but it's really fun once you get into it... I wonder if the Victorians considered these kinds of novels "guilty pleasures" back in their day and whether they were considered pure entertainment or possibly unfit for young people to read.

Norfolk looks beautiful... Uncrowded beaches, a small-town atmosphere. A perfect vacation spot to hide and relax during the off season.

MadgeUK wrote: "Me too, I love melodrama Folks may remember that Dickens used the bleak inhospitable coast of Norfolk for the scary opening of Great Expectations:

https://youtu.be/eXyo68s-f1E"

Id forgotten that. It's also where Robinson Crusoe experienced his first shipwreck, according to this page on "Literary Norfolk" http://www.literarynorfolk.co.uk/wint...

Dee wrote: "I enjoyed that little exchange of letters between the two villainous women and their scheming, manipulative selves..."

Me too! And the tone they use to each other, with their constant snipes, insults and one-up-(wo)manship, means their entrance into the story comes with the sparks already flying.

Dee wrote: "Norfolk looks beautiful... Uncrowded beaches, a small-town atmosphere. A perfect vacation spot to hide and relax during the off season."

A bit bleak Dee as there is always a keen wind blowing off the cold North Sea, The Norfolk Broads are one of the best places in the UK though for boating and/or birdwatching:

http://www.tournorfolk.co.uk/norfolkb...

The ladies here reminded me of Magdalena and her "uncle" from No Name. Funny how a different perspective changes things.

MadgeUK wrote: "It is all the stuff of melodrama, like those early black and white movies with damsels tied to railway lines and villains twirling their moustaches."

Yes! Except, this time it seems that it's a nice innocent chap tied to the railway line, with the villainess twirling her.... Paisley shawl?!

Ooo! I like that image!
Does that make Midwinter Dudley Doright?

I don't know where to post this info which I have just put on RR but on the 29th the Future Learn online course The Literature of the English Country House, hosted by The University of Sheffield, starts and this morning they sent a wonderful interactive map of the area, which almost brought me to tears because it showed so many of my childhood and girlhood haunts. I was born in Sheffield and spent many hours walking and cycling around the villages in the spectacular countryside of South Yorkshire and North Derbyshire, where many great country houses are located, one area being named The Dukeries because so many Dukes lived there. Needless to say I am very much looking forward to the course which I think will also be of great interest to all RR and Victorian members, covering as it does many of the books we love.

https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/c...

Thanks for the reminder, Madge! I'm also signed up, and I think it's going to be a really interesting course.

You've also inadvertently made the point that we are rather lacking a "general chat" thread here at Vics. I can create one today. Should we call it "The Drawing Room" or "The Parlour"?!

PS - For chat about learning courses, the best place to post would probably be here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Pip wrote: "Thanks for the reminder, Madge! I'm also signed up, and I think it's going to be a really interesting course.

You've also inadvertently made the point that we are rather lacking a "general chat" t..."

Either name is a good choice or the tea took would work too.

Yes, I meant to mention that Vics needs chat thread.
Can it be in News & Announcements so that it is at the top of the page? The Parlour sounds cosy and Victorian, Drawing Room is a bit posh.

MadgeUK wrote: "Yes, I meant to mention that Vics needs chat thread.
Can it be in News & Announcements so that it is at the top of the page? The Parlour sounds cosy and Victorian, Drawing Room is a bit posh."

Tea in the Parlour it is, then ;-)

I'd like to keep News and Announcements for Mods' announcements to the group; I'd hoped to make it a read-only thread, but haven't worked that one out yet...
We're still re-organising, and hopefully rationalising, the group site, but a general chat thread definitely needs to go near the top, I agree. Perhaps we also need a "suggestions" thread ;-))

Tea in the Parlour. Great idea.

How did everyone react to the penultimate chapter, in which Midwinter loses it completely in his overly-gushing attempts to ingratiate himself with the Milroys? I thought this was a masterly piece of writing. Collins is often compared unfavourably to Dickens in his portrayal of character, but I feel that Collins gets to the heart of us humans when he describes situations like this.

Peter wrote: "Tea in the Parlour. Great idea."

I wish Goodreads would just introduce a "like" button Peter!

Pip wrote: "How did everyone react to the penultimate chapter, in which Midwinter loses it completely in his overly-gushing attempts to ingratiate himself with the Milroys? I thought this was a masterly piece ..."

A very Dostoyevskian outburst, and very well-written. I felt so sorry and embarrassed for Midwinter and it did feel very realistic.

I agree. So painful. Especially since he's been the one trying to get his buddy back into the graces of the townspeople. Just so human. I wonder if he'll fall for Miss Milroy ala Tale of Two Cities?

Renee wrote: "I agree. So painful. Especially since he's been the one trying to get his buddy back into the graces of the townspeople. Just so human. I wonder if he'll fall for Miss Milroy ala Tale of Two Cities?"

Eeeek! Don't mention A Tale of Two Cities.... I started reading it for the second time and am still no further ahead than the first. Not for not wanting to read it, but rather due to time restrictions. Best of times, worst of times - never better felt!!

Haha! I'm doing a reread too. But the Boys of Armadale keep dragging me away.

I was just thinking how crazy it would be if Midwinter falls for Lydia Gwilt. That would be interesting, to see him not only unable to protect Armadale but also unable to judge character. Could he and Lydia be those two shadowy figures by the window? :D Midwinter already likes that room, and I imagine a governess will be staying in humble quarters.

I wonder how Lydia Gwilt will come across anyways, and how good of an actress she'll be.

There is so much going on in this section ... I, too, find the interplay of letters between Mrs. Oldershaw and Lydia to be wonderful. The surface content of the letters combined with the constant currents of personality, intrigue and a touch of power play keep them fresh and entertaining. Collins is the only novelist in my experience who can use the epistolary format without being boring .

Allan continues to be puppy-like. (That image sticks in my mind, Pip). As Lydia sets out on her quest to marry Allan, with Mrs. Oldershaw urging her forward, Allan will be outmatched in experience, deviousness and strategy. Perhaps his best defence, and his only defence, will be the fact that he is innocent and naïve. Will he be so unfocussed, so impressionable, so willing to ramble about that Lydia will be unable to bring him to heal?

I also am enjoying the detective tone of the story. People are being followed, plots and counterplots are being hatched. Mrs Oldershaw's clever urging forward of the "Thorpe-Ambrose experiment" is contrasted so well with the jumbled misadventures of Major Milroy's clock.

I find the novel hard to put down until I have read just a bit further on ...

I'm behind, and have just started this section. One thing I really like about Collins is when he uses letters and diaries, the voice changes. It truly seems as if written by different people.

Deborah wrote: "I'm behind, and have just started this section. One thing I really like about Collins is when he uses letters and diaries, the voice changes. It truly seems as if written by different people."

This impresses me too. I also like that the entries are of a substantial length.

I fell behind as well, I am just starting this section!

Rachel wrote: "I fell behind as well, I am just starting this section!"

Then we are in good company

Yay! I feel bad being behind since I have so many books I want to read, but the section was longer than I thought!

Rachel wrote: "Yay! I feel bad being behind since I have so many books I want to read, but the section was longer than I thought!"

I can relate to all of that. I was leading a discussion in another group so that took priority

Lol! I almost never re-read books because their is always something else that catches my eye ;) After Armadale I have have a pile of other books waiting.

I'm excited the mysterious maid has made an appearance in this section. There was certainly enough foreshadowing that I knew she would come up sooner or later.

I just finished this section and loved every minute of it. Can't wait to continue but first I must finish the first week of The Literature of the English Country House course. I signed up for it also and started it but need to finish the first week. How can I be retired but be so far behind in everything? One of life's mysteries.
The course is great and thank you MadgeUK for suggesting it.

Deborah wrote: "One thing I really like about Collins is when he uses letters and diaries, the voice changes. It truly seems as if written by different people."

So true.

Diane wrote: "I just finished this section and loved every minute of it. Can't wait to continue but first I must finish the first week of The Literature of the English Country House course. I signed up for it al..."

Don't fret, Diane - I have a feeling you're in good company on many of those counts ;-) Enjoy the book at your own pace. That's the most important thing.

I'm reading this a year later and am enjoying your comments!! Is there a discussion on Section 3? I can't find it!

There definitely was one. I'll do a little digging, too. It may be in the archive folder but not necessarily beside the other Armadales.

Hi, Claire. The rest of the Armadales threads are in this folder (Archived Reads 2015), but found on the second "page." If you scroll down to the bottom, you'll see several pages listed for 2015. Hope this helps.

Thank you so much, Renee! Even though I'm not part of the active discussion, I love reading the comments of the group. It helps me to think about and process the somewhat difficult plot! :)

I agree. The commentary really adds so much to my appreciation.