Victorians! discussion

Please place your background info here. Yes, I'm early. I'm getting ready to be traveling for a bit, and wanted to ensure we were ready

Thanks Deborah. Looking forard to our meeting!

This reviewer and George Eliot thought Villette to be a far better novel than Jane Eyre (SPOILER):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/bo...

MadgeUK wrote: "Thanks Deborah. Looking forard to our meeting!

This reviewer and George Eliot thought Villette to be a far better novel than Jane Eyre (SPOILER):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/bo......"

Thanks for the review -- and the links embedded in the comments??

MadgeUK wrote: "Thanks Deborah. Looking forard to our meeting!

This reviewer and George Eliot thought Villette to be a far better novel than Jane Eyre (SPOILER):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/bo......"

Villette will be a grand reading experience. Thanks for posting the review.

Have a wonderful holiday Deborah. A glass of wine as the sun sets after a perfect day ...

Peter wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Thanks Deborah. Looking forard to our meeting!

This reviewer and George Eliot thought Villette to be a far better novel than Jane Eyre (SPOILER):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cultur..."

I'm so excited I can barely stand it. Seeing countries I've never been to before, and ending up in London - getting to meet Madge. It's going to be wonderful :) thanks for the good wishes, Peter. I will still try to check in once a day, and will be ready come August 1 for Villette

Deborah wrote: "I will still try to check in once a day."

I very much hope you won't!! Unless it's to post photos and make us all jealous.

Enjoy your holiday and try to forget about us for a bit. I'll hold the fort in the meantime - luckily, our members are an understanding bunch ;-))

Pip wrote: "Deborah wrote: "I will still try to check in once a day."

I very much hope you won't!! Unless it's to post photos and make us all jealous.

Enjoy your holiday and try to forget about us for a bit..."

Yes they are, but I plan on my checking in to share the wonderful adventures. I will try not to make everybody too jealous

I think you need a special thread Deborah! We can look upon it as your Grand Tour and imagine you in a crinoline - it will be Awesome and Sublime!

MadgeUK wrote: "I think you need a special thread Deborah! We can look upon it as your Grand Tour and imagine you in a crinoline - it will be Awesome and Sublime!"

Lol. Not sure I rate a separate thread...

Just a reminder, background info and resources are appreciated

Villette was written after Charlotte had lost siblings to turburculous. She was terrified she too would succumb. She suffered from loneliness and depression during its writing, as well as mercury poisoning from the medicine prescribed. It is based on her experiences. Since Bronte was editing Wurthering Heights and Agnes Grey while writing this novel, the novel was influenced by both of these works.

I have just finished viewing this week's MOOC on The English Country House.(Week 5)from FutureLearn. It is a perfect background for some of the various Gothic elements that appear in Villette.

Peter wrote: "I have just finished viewing this week's MOOC on The English Country House.(Week 5)from FutureLearn. It is a perfect background for some of the various Gothic elements that appear in Villette."

That's great.

George Eliot thought Villette was better than Jane Eyre (Bit of a Spoiler.) :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/bo...

From another review: 'The novel retains many gothic elements: far-fetched coincidences, ghosts and dream-like sequences, which contend with its prevailing realism. Its predominantly sombre mood is intensified rather than lightened, by moments of bleak humour. These contradictions, which made it unsatisfactory for many Victorian readers, are precisely what make it so appealing to many twentieth century ones.'

I agree with George Eliot. I read Villette for an English class a couple of years ago, and felt that this book was on some other level. Not in the sense that it was the best written book I ever came across, but it connected with me in a way other novels didn't.

Jaq-Lin wrote: "I agree with George Eliot. I read Villette for an English class a couple of years ago, and felt that this book was on some other level. Not in the sense that it was the best written book I ever cam..."

In it's time it was criticized as being a bit disjointed. It makes sense that it might feel that way with what the author was experiencing while writing.

MadgeUK wrote: "George Eliot thought Villette was better than Jane Eyre (Bit of a Spoiler.) :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/bo...

From an..."

This review is at once both persuasive and insightful. Thanks for the post. I have always thought Jane Eyre the better of the two novels, but since reading Villette again, after so many years, I'm not too sure any more. Nothing wrong with liking both novels equally.

Peter wrote: "...I have always thought Jane Eyre the better of the two novels, but since reading Villette again, after so many years, I'm not too sure any more...."

Some issues/topics get rather ground into the ground, while others arise and gain discussion. Is that perhaps what is happening here with JE vs V?

Lily wrote: "Peter wrote: "...I have always thought Jane Eyre the better of the two novels, but since reading Villette again, after so many years, I'm not too sure any more...."

Some issues/topics get rather ..."

Would it be fair to assume that most of us have read JE and thus we could be free to compare and contrast Villette to JE where appropriate?

Peter wrote: "Lily wrote: "Peter wrote: "...I have always thought Jane Eyre the better of the two novels, but since reading Villette again, after so many years, I'm not too sure any more...."

Some issues/topic..."

I think the comparison would be appropriate

Peter wrote: "Would it be fair to assume that most of us have read JE and thus we could be free to compare and contrast Villette to JE where appropriate?
"

Well, eight people voted to read Jane Eyre in this latest poll, but some may have been wanting a re-read.... ;-)

I think most of us probably have read JE, but perhaps we could agree to do something simple like prefix any comparisons containing possible spoilers with "JE SPOILER" - it would be simpler than asking people to use the normal spoiler brackets and would interrupt the flow of the conversation less.

What do you think?

I think comparisons are always appropriate to the discussion. Your concern re spoilers is very much appreciated. You can handle them that way or use the spoiler function is you think it appropriate.

Nice! I loved JE so much as a girl. Plus, I did an audio version of Villette last year and was halfway through when I realized it was an abridgment. (Funny, the writing felt "off" to me the whole time.) The opportunity for comparison is huge. This is gonna be so much fun!

I'd love to be able to compare and contrast. Perhaps we can ask up front if anyone doesn't know whT happens in JE-I expect it's one of those books where, even if you haven't read it, you've picked up the plot details through some sort of cultural osmosis.

A friend recently told me Villette was better than JE.

I hope to be joining the read, and would be interested to compare works. I imagine most people joining this particular group know the basic JE plot. Maybe just a warning upfront to anyone who isn't familiar with the storyline would suffice.

I haven't read Jane Eyre but I know the story with so many variations of it in movies. I wouldn't mind comparing it with Villette.

I've been comparing Villette to JE as I was reading through the first week's chapters. It's kind of hard not to when you've previously read and loved JE. But I'll definitely be mindful of posting any unintentional spoilers :)

Does anyone know the correct pronunciation of Villette? Vill (rhymes with Will)-let? Vee-yet? Something else?

Frances wrote: "Does anyone know the correct pronunciation of Villette? Vill (rhymes with Will)-let? Vee-yet? Something else?"

I don't know but have been pronouncing it Vill-let which makes sense to me as it means small village

I did too, then I realized it was in France and wondered if it should have a french pronunciation.

Frances wrote: "Does anyone know the correct pronunciation of Villette? Vill (rhymes with Will)-let? Vee-yet? Something else?"

It's actually veelet. It's a diminutive of "ville" (town or city) which is pronounced "veel". The pronunciation differs from many other words ending in _ille for example "fille" and "fillette" (girl and little girl respectively) in which the L sound is not pronounced.

I have just found this website with interesting pictures and links to even more information:
https://beckylindroos.wordpress.com/0...

I was interested in the male essay on Victorian web, but I didn't read too much in case it gave away plot point.

This is the opening paragraph:

The ideal Victorian male should have certain characteristics such as honor, loyalty, intelligence, moral uprightness and it does not hurt to have a good income. While this characterization is not terribly realistic, it was the societal ideal and for many authors of the time, their heroines could only marry such men and thereby secure a happy life. Anne Brontë demonstrates this in Agnes Grey. However, the male characters in Charlotte Brontë's works do not follow this tradition. Beginning with Alfred the Duke of Zamorna in her juvenilia, Bronte creates male characters that may fit certain characteristics of that male ideal, but generally fail to meet the high standards. Charlotte was a strong woman and her beliefs about gender inequality are widely known. It seems then that this need to denigrate her male characters, at least from that societal ideal, comes from a desire to make her female characters supplant their male counterparts while still maintaining their respectability and their "proper" place in society. From Master John, Brocklehurst, Rochester and St. John in Jane Eyre to Dr. John Graham and Paul Emmanuel in Villette we have male characters who are either greedy, prone to jealousy, dishonest, hypocritical, or some horrible combination of the above. These characteristics, not only break with the Victorian ideal and give us more realistic heroes, they serve another, more important, purpose for Charlotte. They give Jane and Lucy models to learn from and enemies to fight against, and in the end, allow them to surpass the ideal male "hero" and create a new feminine hero for the Victorian age.

Clari, that was quite interesting. I agree with the assessment. Mr. Rochester is not acceptable until he is maimed and disfigured and Jane is more his equal.

Clari

An interesting article. When we complete the novel it would be interesting to reflect back on these comments. It is, certainly, true that both Dr. John and M. Paul have not as yet been seen as sterling gentlemen. Perhaps there will be a "Rochester moment" yet to come.

Peter,
What is a Rochester moment? In many ways, M. Paul reminds me of Mr. Rochester. Neither is perfect, they are conniving, there is something dark about them, etc. Yet they both truly and deeply love.

Brit wrote: "Peter,
What is a Rochester moment? In many ways, M. Paul reminds me of Mr. Rochester. Neither is perfect, they are conniving, there is something dark about them, etc. Yet they both truly and deeply..."

Hi Brit

I don't want to give any spoilers away, but I am referring to your comment that "Mr. Rochester is not acceptable until he is maimed and disfigured and Jane is more his equal." It will be interesting to see if M. Paul or Dr. John are, in some way, maimed or disfigured, and thus fit more comfortably into a full comparison with Rochester.

As we go through Villette I am finding the characters and plot of Villette and JE similar, although our heroines I find to be strikingly different.

Peter wrote: "As we go through Villette I am finding the characters and plot of Villette and JE similar, although our heroines I find to be strikingly different."

I have not finished 'Villette' so luckily I can't give any spoilers, esp as this is the background information thread! But am interested in your comment, Peter. Is it plot, style, or themes that are similar?
It is a while since I read Jane Eyre, but the things I can think of at the moment are the loneliness, social exclusion and sense of being on the edge.

Is anyone familiar with 'The Professor', again a long time since I've read it, but I recall that it was in a way the early version of 'Villette', but even more autobiographical.

Great piece of the article to quote, Clari.
I do love that CB's male characters are realistic with their jealousies and their quirks.

Clari wrote: "Peter wrote: "As we go through Villette I am finding the characters and plot of Villette and JE similar, although our heroines I find to be strikingly different."

I have not finished 'Villette' so..."

Hi Clari

Your comments on similarities between Villette and Jane Eyre are certainly accurate, but, as you mention, any detailed discussion would be best in another thread.

May I suggest that when the final week's thread of Villette is opened, and thus there is no need to worry about spoilers, there could be a wide-ranging and interesting discussion of both books. If an entry that contained commentary comparing both books was headed "Jane Eyre Spoiler" then readers could choose to read the message or not.

Speaking for myself, I really enjoy looking back at the completed book and then having a wide-ranging dialogue with others.

As we begin Alice's Adventures in Wonderland I see no reason some readers could not continue to discuss Villette as well.

MadgeUK wrote: "Thanks Deborah. Looking forard to our meeting!

This reviewer and George Eliot thought Villette to be a far better novel than Jane Eyre (SPOILER):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/bo......"

Thanks Madge for posting this article-I went back to read it after finishing the book and loved the added insight it gave.