Fantasy Book Club discussion

When I read the first book (The Blade Itself) I felt I may have stumbled upon one of the best fantasy series I've ever read. I read the second (Before They Are Hanged) and my feelings were only that much more confirmed. They offered something very unique in fantasy and JA's writing is a class above most everything in the genre. That being said, it all starts to unravel for me in the third book (Last Argument Of Kings). It was equally as well written, but it leaves with the feeling that the entire series was rather pointless. All the gains made in the first two were undone and set fire to in the last book. The growth each character seemed to make in the series were taken back in the third. Several characters you started out hating then grew to like, you ended up hating again. I'm not sure which I'm bothered more by, the fact the series ends in total chaos and utterly depressing, or that I let that fact ruin my opinion of the series overall. I'm hoping some people here have read the series, since I'd like to get some other view points.

I haven't read anything by him. Besides the trilogy, it looks like he has a stand alone novel, Best Served Cold. Have you read it? Looks brand new.

Haven't read it yet. It's based in the same world as the the first law trilogy, but involves only minor characters from it. I will definitely pick it up at some point. I hesitate to read it yet, since his last book left me utterly depressed...lol.

I really enjoyed this series a lot, and didn't mind the ending (at least I hope Abercrombie writes more on these characters eventually). Most of them don't get any happy endings, so I guess if you like happy endings, you probably wouldn't like the ending to the trilogy. Glokta was definitely my favorite character. Loved his inner monolouge about things. I don't think I really hated any of the characters (but then again, I tend to like protagonists that aren't always completely likeable and flawed) except for maybe Bayaz a little, but you really don't want to get on his bad side.

I'm really looking forward to Best Served Cold, which I heard is even better, so I'm excited. :) Only I wish they hadn't changed the cover. Made me angry they decided to change it from the UK one.

I'm not necessarily always for the happy ending, but I do tend to like my endings to have some sence of conclusion. As far as hating characters, I'll use Jezal as an example. Self absorbed, arrogant and in a general a very unlikable character. Through is travels he gains some serious cred and develops into a rather good human being, possibly the most likable character int he series outside of Glokta. Then towards the end through the meddlings of Bayaz, he reverts back into an oblivious coward. I'm left with little to no respect for his character. The same for Logan who despite his journey and character growth manages to kill a child, his friend and nearly his best friend as well. The split personality of the Bloody Nine is never really delved into. Bayaz goes from eccentric, powerful, ego maniac, to down-right diabolical. With exception of the Dogman and Glokta, JA managed to destroy every major character in the story in the last book.

I have not read the third book yet, but the first two were really good

I just finished the first book a week ago and I received the second book from Amazon in the mail on Saturday. I don't own the third one yet but I'm keeping an eye out for it.

I enjoy flawed characters and I'm not put out if they don't survive intact to the end. As long as it is an end.

I really want to read this thread but I haven't finished book 3 yet, kinda had to start it over actually b/c I took too long of a break. Great series so far though, I love his writing.

I need to order the third book. but for myself I am having a hard time keeping up with all the reading that I am caught up in.
any suggestions

After some time to reflect on the series as a whole I still believe it to be one of the best modern fantasies ever written. However disappointing the ending was, it's the journey that's important not necessarily the destination. I do hold out hope that JA will wrap up the story lines of the main characters in another set sometime soon.

I just finished today. Took me a while, heh, but it was worth it. Justin, I do have to agree with you on some points. The ending wasn't a happy one, and a lot of the characters were sh** on pretty bad, but I still loved the ending as a whole.

As far as the characters reverting back to their pitiful states before becoming better people in book two, I think there are a couple things to be said about that.
Jezal- I think he really did change. He completely became a better person, more courageous and he showed himself to be a fully capable king. The only thing corwardish about him was the fact he learned that Bayaz controlled him utterly and was his puppet. But he had no choice in that matter, did he?
Logen- I think with, Ninefingers, Abercrombie is saying that some things will never change. While Glokta went from a crippled servant to the most powerful man (or puppet rather) in the Union, Logen is still a killing machine even after aspiring to be something better for so long. How the book ends with him jumping in the river is how the first book began. I am dissapointed like you though, that Abercrombie didn't delve into his split personalitly. I was hoping maybe for a flashback scene that would explain the point that Logen and The Bloody Nine became one person, but oh well. Maybe we'll read about him in the next book. I'm sure he's still alive after all.

What I liked most about the ending though, was how everything came together, even if it wasn't necessarily happy. Bayaz who at first seemed to be the Gandalf figure turned out really to be more of a Sauron figure, and I thought that was just awesome.
Overall, the series is one of my favorites of all time.

I mostly enjoyed this series, but have to admit to being disappointed in the ending. I think, as fantasy readers, we're looking for not necessarily a "story-book ending," but at least some redemption.

Except for Jezal, none of the characters advanced (I'm not talking about his position in life, but his actual personality/character). I just wanted a little more of that -- something to give me hope in humankind rather than leaving me depressed. Not Terry Goodkind kind of humanism -- just a little bit of satisfaction.

Here's my review of Last Argument of Kings.

As time passes on from the time I finished the book, I've begun to appreciate more what JA did with the ending of his series. I still can't help but be disappointed by it. I think I may have misunderstood the author's intentions due to how awesome and fun the series was to read. I was expecting a climactic ending where the fruits (poor choice of wording..and if you read the series you'll know what I mean...lol) of all the protagonists come together, some fail some succeed...and in a sense that did happen, it's just that...well...everyone got what they deserved. I was hoping for better.

I don't tend to do well with novels that have a nonstop cynical edge, or ones that wind up with a sense of futility. The very fact I had such a reaction to this series is a great indicator the author did what he has with immense power. I can respect that. Love and hate are so closely related, sometimes a book that leaves me with a conflicted or strong adverse impact is indicative of the fact it was extremely well done. Recognition is well deserved for the fact I was made to react so strongly.

I prefer books that create a love it or hate it response far more than ones that fall in the bland middle and please everyone. I expect that Abercrombie will create his own following, and tend to keep the readers who enjoy what he does with as strong a loyalty.

I found it interesting the way he drew his people as charicatures. That made their interactions quite vivid.

The first two were definitely gritty and real, but the characters were on a distinct path of improvement the whole time, only in the third book did it start to unravel...maybe even as late as the last 3rd of the book. I felt rushed into the the ending given. It also felt trite in the way it tried to not be trite....does that even make sense?

These books are ALL about characters and their relations. I carried these dudes with me for half a year.

And I like the minimality of magic.

Abercrombie is not afraid to leash the reader and for that I give him points.

I'm about to start reading the 'Best Served Cold'. Heard it's his best.

I just finished reading the First Law trilogy today.
My Joe Abercrombie experience started a few years ago when I was looking for a good stand-alone fantasy novel. The outcome was "Best served cold". I liked it, but never thought to go and explore the author's other books. Over Christmas, however, I picked up "Heroes" from an airport and enjoyed the characters so much that I started "The blade itself" immediately after I finished the second sequel of these series. So I was already acquaintanced with some of the characters and I actually knew from the very start what the fate of Logen would be, for example. Also, that harsh, but likable old man described in "The blade itself" didn't quite match the Bayaz described in "Heroes". I knew West won't be Lord Marshal for long, considering Kroy was in his post in Heroes and the fact that Forest mentions him with a hint of nostalgia, which implied that he did not retire, but actually died.

What I liked about the trilogy:
- The Northerners
Every single one of them, no exceptions! They are not necessarily all likable, but I just can't help but appreciate the mastery of Abercrombie in the creation and description of this absolutely believable diverse array of characters. Black Dow, Tul Dury, Grim, Dogman etc. Author gets extra points for the awesome names.
Because I knew Calder and Skayle from "Heroes", I was a bit disappointed with how negligible they were, but I guess they were being nurtured for a different scene.

-Logen - gets an honorary mention.
My love for this character is boundless. I am just a sucker for the "struggling with the past" types and this one takes it to a whole new level. I had an idea about who the Bloody Nine is, since he is mentioned on a couple of occasions in "Heroes", but when I first read his chapter I was torn between the notions that either he was a young bloodthirsty fool or his dark fame is attributed to just exaggerated rumors. I didn't see the dual personality coming at all! It was also the cause of some pondering on my part. I never quite figured out whether Dogman is aware of it or not.

-Luthar
I can't explain why (or rather I am unwilling to do so, because I would have to admit some very sorry truths to myself), but Luthar struck a cord with me from chapter one. I was scoffing, of course, where scoffing was warranted in his POVs, but as a whole I just enjoyed the character very much. Until the last few chapters, that is. I will explain my annoyance with his ending later.

-Glokta
This demands no explanation. One of the best characters I have ever read about.


-Logen's ending
I would say that I was very very very impressed and delighted. From "Heroes" I gathered that Dow kills him, but when he jumped out of the bloody window I was thoroughly happy. The reference to the first chapter was great and I thought it was a fitting end of this story at this point. I think he survived the jump and got the resolution of his dilemma with the past by sort of faking his death, but that is for Abercrombie to know and perhaps to reveal in later novels. I have yet to read "Red Country".

-Glokta and Ardee
I was quite happy with this and I have to admit that I might have had a tiny suspicion that this might happen when West left Ardee in Glokta's care. Then I pushed it back to my mind, when Jezal came back to Adua, but that fleeting little suspicion gave me grounds to shout out-loud in the cafe: "I knew it!" when Glokta proposed. I do wonder whether Ardee gave birth to a child or a keg of wine.

Bones to pick:

-Ferro
I didn't like her chapters as much as the others. I get why she was important to the story with the Seed and everything, but nope... I hoped at a time that she would warm up, but just when this was happening they arrived back in Adua and stupid Logen had to go back to the stupid North... I heavily endorsed the idea of little olive-skinned Logens and Ferros. And why do I have a feeling that she will stir up a lot of trouble in the future thanks to those voices?

-Bayaz
I have my fingers crossed for a book that ends with him and the bloody cross in one sentence. The war of humanity against Bayaz? Would that be too LOTR? Who cares? I would read it anyway!

-Luthar's end
He is a coward, yes, but he managed to speak up so many times when cowardice was urging him not to. I am curious what happens to him afterwards. I got the impression from his last chapter that he was becoming more and more an abesentee king. I do hope Glokta and him strike some sort of a collaboration together. I hope, but I think it is quite unlikely.



These are my most pressing-to-be-voiced impressions of the trilogy, but I guess that after all of it sinks in more will appear.

I'm sorry but I was SO disappointed in Abercrombie's inconsistency in character development, plotlines and general content. When I read book one of his First Law, The Blade Itself, I truly thought I had found a new top 5 favorite author. It was brilliant.

The second book, Before They Are Hanged, was utter trash. The characters behaved inconsistently with how they had acted in the first book, it seemed like what harsh language was there in the first book, that actually fit the situations, was sprinkled ubiquitously throughout the second book whether or not the swearing dialogue fit the situation. It was an abysmal scrap that totally wrecked my opinion of him.

The third book, The Last Argument of Kings, went several steps toward redemption, but was not up to the level of brilliance in the first book. The spirits of swearing sailors and wanton whores that possessed the characters for the duration of the second book seem to have been sufficiently exorcised and the building of the plot for the final battle was fairly well done.

Unfortunately, I have pretty much written off Abercrombie as a "want to read again" author. As a fantasy author myself, Abercrombie, with that kind of hit-and-miss character and world building, I can't take him seriously as an author to read. This is truly a pity because The Blade Itself was genuinely a brilliant book and gave me such hope for the rest of the series.

Blessings,

David G. Johnson

David wrote: "I'm sorry but I was SO disappointed in Abercrombie's inconsistency in character development, plotlines and general content. When I read book one of his First Law, The Blade Itself, I truly thought ..."

Please read the rules regarding signatures, etc., for authors.

Sandra,

I actually already corrected the post before you commented.

Blessings,

David G. Johnson

David wrote: "Sandra,

I actually already corrected the post before you commented.

Blessings,

David G. Johnson"

Well, I notice you're still signing your posts, so I don't see how you 'get' it.

Definitely one of my all time favorite fantasy series. Interestingly enough, this was a series where the characters just plain steal the show. If you step back and take a cold look at the books, minus the characters? There isn't anything imaginative, or new, or creative there. It's as absolutely generic as it gets. The magic of the series is in the characters.

This is one of favorites.

I strongly believe the first book in the trilogy is about character and plot development but it was still good. Just the introduction to the dark world and equally dark characters.

I liked book 2 better than first, all the uncertainty that Abercrombie had created around some crucial events kept me to the edge till the very end.

Final book was what a finale should be like. Dark & gritty. the fight scenes were just too good.

The way Abercrombie described his characters is amazing. They're cruel and having no conscience yet they all were brilliant in their own way. Sometime I hated them but then there were times when I absolutely loved them.

My pick of the character is Glokta, his internal dialogues steals the show from every other character for me. & that is also one of the reason that I can't wait for Abercrombie's first YA novel as the protagonist in that book is also a cripple.

Just not sure why people like this one so much. It was alright, but there's a lot better out there.

I think a lot of people are afraid to read books written before they were born.

For me it's much darker than game of thrones. Not only is what happens dark but so is the way people think and interact.

Well, there is some very black humor going on. And despite everything they do and that happens to them, some of the characters are very likeable, or maybe sympathetic.

I'm not generally into darker stuff like this, but I tore through this trilogy with ease, unlike GoT which I liked okay for the first two books and then it just seemed a mess and like GRRM was just indulging himself rather than focusing on writing well. I pretty much hate (or find totally boring) most of the characters and want them to kill each other off or get eaten by the dragons or iced by white walkers.

I don't know how to describe it exactly. Abercrombie's characters are violent people in a violent world, but they aren't evil and there's something - maybe it's that they seem like fairly normal people at heart, trying to get by. I definitely wasn't depressed by the books, and I find the characters much more entertaining than the majority of the GoT gang (even Tyrion gets boring in the books).

I guess I think it all seemed realistic and plausible instead of "fantastic" which I found to be an interesting change.

The man can write, is what I'm sayin'.

I loved the first two books and was devastated as you by the last one. It was just so bleak. Maybe abercrombie's point was that there is no point and people are shit, in which case the ending was very fitting.

This series is worth the price of admission just for the creation of the character Sand dan Glokta. Anytime he's feature with his cynical and sarcastic view of life, it's quite amazing. I found myself laughing and horrified at the same time.

Paul wrote: "This series is worth the price of admission just for the creation of the character Sand dan Glokta. Anytime he's feature with his cynical and sarcastic view of life, it's quite amazing. I found mys..."

Pretty much this. The trilogy is one that stays with you long after you've moved on. I don't think I've found a character as interesting as Sand Dan Glokta since. I also live Abercrombie's Bremer Dan Gorst - especially in The Heroes.

Katey wrote: "...also...Bremer Dan Gorst - especially in The Heroes. "

Yes, he serves almost the same purpose as Glokta. Gorst is the broken member of the landed gentry who is a cynical observer of the action. I've felt that both Glokta and Gorst are both voices for the author's thought. I'm not saying they're Mary Sue characters, just conduits for the author.