Sword & Sorcery: "An earthier sort of fantasy" discussion

With the poll for Mar-Apr coming to a close, the front runner theme is Sword & Mythos (weird, Lovecraftian stuff) and will likely win.

Whether or not it wins this round, I wanted to hear what books would count for this category. Partly, because I am compelled to work up another engaging banner.

So What is Sword & Mythos? To me, the scope covers the overlap of heroic fiction with Lovecraftian/weird horror. Many of the original weird pulp fiction works should count: i.e. Clark Ashton Smith's Zothique yarns, and some of Robert E. Howard's weirder stuff (Bran Mak Morn). Actually, I confess to not having read much of Fritz Leiber's work yet (sacrilege, I know...please do not exile me from the group). Does his horror/fantasy mix work?

What about contemporary authors? Michael Shea? Of course, a number of the authors in this group seem to play with this sub-genre. Chime in! Please nominate a candidate book with a cool cover to work into the banner.

Bookshelf: Overlooking the risk of having too many categories in our group bookshelf, I intoduced a tag for Sword-and-Mythos -- link. Feel welcome to "edit" any book and add this tag (the process is a bit cumbersome, but should work for all members).

S.E. wrote: "With the poll for Mar-Apr coming to a close, the front runner theme is Sword & Mythos (weird, Lovecraftian stuff) and will likely win.
Please help define the scope of this, by chiming in on the thread:
What is Sword and Mythos? ..."

I understand Sword & Mythos stories, as Heroic Fantasy fiction in the "sandbox" universe of H.P. Lovecraft. That would include settings and characters associated with HF or Sword & Sorcery often including, faux grimoires, tentacled menaces and ancient deities. Early Sword & Sorcery tales share some of these characteristics, although I'm not sure if the could be defined as Sword & Mythos. A couple of Kull tales and Fritz Leiber's "The Sunken Land" come to mind.

I've been reading the entries on Lovecraft and Weird Tales, from The Encyclopedia of Fantasy, co-edited by fellow group-member Mr. John Grant, trying to find a more viable definition...

Periklis wrote: "S.E. wrote: "...Sword & Mythos (weird, Lovecraftian stuff)..."

Periklis, thanks for your feedback, and for tagging/posting a lot of examples in the Sword and Mythos Bookshelf.

Certainly some of Brian Lumley's Shad tales look great...and have perfect covers for inspiring a banner image.

I'm not sure I agree that "sword and mythos" ought to be defined by such a narrow swathe as Lovecraft, since if the simple meaning of these English words must apply, the sword and mythos story is the earliest story told in humanity's memory, and perhaps the most important one. All heroic fiction/fantasy, back to Gilgamesh epic and certainly including the Old Testament and Homer, is "sword and mythos," because in these treaties/religious texts/tales the gods are real, prayer, sorcery and omina have dependable effects, fate (or Fates) exist, gods and demons take sides, evil becomes personified, underworlds (demons and lords of the dead) as well as heavens are represented as willful, all with defined rules either specific to some culture or, in the cases of merely self-consistent mythos, specific to a book series. Anyone familiar with comparative mythologies (even if only to the extent of reading Joseph Campbell) will understand that syncretism (the correlation of different gods and heavens and celestial rules of order) pervades all actual "mythos." Syncretism also allowed the signing of historically important treaties between or among ancient nations, in the 3rd and 2nd millenium bce and after, when gods were called upon to witness and enforce treaties between city-states or tribes and had to be equated so that gods with different names but the same attributes would be treaty co-signatories with human signers. The merely self-consistent attempts at this that sometimes appear in modern fantasy, which do not reference or acknowledge actual myth, are less satisfying than culturally-informed mythos because mythos helped us define ourselves and has correlations to the inherent nature of humanity, whether or not a single individual personally believes that our mythic heritage and story-telling nature are genetically driven or culturally driven or some mix of both. When I started the Sacred Band of Stepsons series works in Thieves' World, I agreed with Bob Asprin I would bring my prexisting historically-informed mythos of Meridian and Stormbringer and the related storm gods along with me; so even in a shared world written by people of different desires and education, that overarching and consistent mythos came fairly dependably into being -- which is our natural way of conceiving god and man, good and evil, heroism and trial, life and death. When we brought Enlil into that conversation, we hooked into the earliest mythos with which humanity chose to define ourselves as a species. Therefore, based on the forgoing, I am sugggesting that nearly everything anyone has written, and certainly everything we have written, in s&s, heroic fantasy, even pure historical set in ancient times, qualifies as sword and mythos in real literary and cultural terms, though perhaps not as Lovecraft would define it. We think that mythic writing, tales with a focus on heroic struggle for/against a celestial consciousness either as defined by the pre-Socratics or before, is important to the human race because each generation sorts out the nature of being and good and evil and their wellsprings. To sum up, we think we write sword and mythos, and many others have done and do and will, and this sword and mythos ranges far beyond such a narrow template as Lovecraft employed.

Janet wrote: "I'm not sure I agree that "sword and mythos" ought to be defined by such a narrow swathe as Lovecraft..."

Wow! A lot good points in there.

From a logistical perspective concerning the upcoming group read, we'll have to narrow the focus a bit from "everything anyone has written, and certainly everything we have written in s&s, heroic fantasy, even pure historical set in ancient times"...while broadening it beyond "Lovecraftian" stuff.

At least 10 members voted for this theme, and I am curious what books they were supporting. Knowing these expectations might shape the group-read a bit. Can any of the "Sword-and-Mythos-voters" help here?

I think it's a little unfortunate that the Sword & Mythos read is happening now, rather than in October when Innsmouth Free Press' when "Sword & Mythos" anthology is due.

Phil, nice catch. Sword & Mythos looks like a good release. Of course, members seemed to asking for some weird S&S now (the Sword & Mythos theme is currently still winning the poll...and the Ryre tales fit the theme). Anyway, by October many of us will need another dose! Thanks for the heads-up.

Cripes...looking through our group page I just re-discovered Periklis' announcement for submissions to that: Post-Sword & Mythos Submissions.

I copy/paste the scope from their submission-info. website, Innsmouth Submission Info - just ended Feb15th:

The Sword and Mythos anthology opens to submissions today, closing February 15, 2013...We want tales that combine any element of the Cthulhu Mythos (creatures such as shoggoths, characters like the King in Yellow, locations like Leng, dangerous books, etc.) combined with sword and sorcery (heroic fantasy). With that said, we would rather see writers explore Lovecraftian themes without explicitly referencing the Mythos than just namedrop Lovecraft monsters in an unoriginal pastiche. We are looking for variety in characters and settings. Reprints will be considered.

S.E. wrote: "Certainly some of Brian Lumley's Shad tales look great"

Those are my favourite sword and mythos stories of all time. His Shad (Tarra Khash) series and his Dreamlands saga.

S.E. wrote: "At least 10 members voted for this theme, and I am curious what books they were supporting."

Because of my love for Lumley's Tarra Khash series, and my love for Lovecraftian fiction, I wanted to read something in that vein. I'm not supporting or going into this group read with any specific book in mind. I figured I would see what others suggest and/or are reading and latch onto one of their books.

After browsing the tagged books in the group, if I can't find one I am interested in from recommendations, etc. I'll read Clark Ashton Smith's Zothique series. I've always wanted to get around to reading those stories.

S.E. wrote: "Phil, nice catch. Sword & Mythos looks like a good release. Of course, members seemed to asking for some weird S&S now (the Sword & Mythos theme is currently still winning the poll...and the Ryre..."

Dang. I wish I would have seen the Innsmouth submission guidelines. I have something that might work, although it's a little long.

On the subject of Lovecraft and his contemporaries in the "Sword and Mythos" arena - how many non-Lovecraft works, I wonder, came up with a pseudo-Cthulhu mythos ouvre/monster/god independently from Lovecraft's work? Did his tentacles reach out and grab the whole lot of them (Howard, Smith, et al), or did some sprout up on their own?

Sean wrote: "S.E. wrote: "...Because of my love for Lumley's Tarra Khash series..."

Sean, if someone wanted to try out Lumley's Primal Land series, should s/he start with Vol 1? The tales look to be a collection of short stories, and Vol-3's cover is calling to me. Advice?


BTW, Clark Ashton Smith's Zothique tales are more available than Campbell's Ryre tales...though Necropress did publish a nice book on Zothique too (no longer available). Between Nightshade's collection of CAS works and books like Lost Worlds...they should be easier to track down. Super dark, poetic, weird adventure for sure.

Forrest wrote: "...I have something that might work, although it's a little long..."

Something = Cloaks of Vermin and Fish...nice title. I enjoyed your work "An Apotheosis"...and this seems like a continuation. More Shakespearean, dark comedy...with a touch of Cthulhu Mythos?

"Cloaks of Vermin and Fish" is the first book of the adventures of Italo and Vincenzo. Twins, thieves, and idiots, Italo and Vincenzo are drawn into a complex web of intrigue that would befuddle smarter men, but not these twins! Follow Italo and Vincenzo as they stumble on to a dark, fish-god-worshipping cult bent on destroying Renaissance Venice and find themselves in the middle of a feud between Venice’s Assassins’ and Thieves’ guild.

S.E. wrote: "Forrest wrote: "...I have something that might work, although it's a little long..."

Something = Cloaks of Vermin and Fish...nice title. I enjoyed your work "An Apotheosis"...and this seems like ..."

Not a continuation. This one is in a more ridiculous vein. Think Laurel and Hardy as renaissance thieves with a cameo by Dagon. Yes, *that* Dagon.

I'm still really curious about Lovecraft's influence vis-a-vis an organically grown tentacular nightmare in other writer's works. I know he wrote to the others a lot, but is there evidence of someone who did not have correspondence with him coming up with a sort of Swords and Mythos work on their own? This is where we need S.T. Joshi in the group.

S.E. wrote: "...Because of my love for Lumley's Tarra Khash series..."

Sean, if someone wanted to try out Lumley's Primal Land series, should s/he start with Vol 1? The tales look t..."

If I were to get into this series, I would probably skip over the TOR editions recently put out and grab the W. Paul Ganley editions. I just checked ebay and see them there but this publisher also has a Facebook page to contact him for details.

Volume One
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Brian-Lumley-C...

Volume Two
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Brian-Lumley-C...

These two books cover everything. Yes they are short stories but they are tied together that this reads just like a novel. I recommend starting from the beginning to the end.

Incidentally another ebay search found the actual publisher's posting for this book:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Brian-Lumley-1...

So As you can see it's readily available at a reasonable cost.

Here's the publisher's explanation from that link:

"PLEASE NOTE: A few years ago, Tor Books reprinted these two titles in hard(sic) cover editions: COMPLEAT KHASH I as "Tarra Khash: Hrossak," and COMPLEAT KHASH II as "Sorcery in Shad." Don't buy both versions unless you really want them. My editions, listed above, were the first hard cover editions and first US editions... illustrated. "

Sean wrote: "S.E. wrote: "...Sean, if someone wanted to try out Lumley's Primal Land series, should s/he start with Vol 1? ..."

Sean, Wow. Thanks so much for this introductory guide to exploring Lumley's Primal Lands series. So, in short, try them sequentially, and consider getting the illustrated, original hardcovers (links in Sean's post).

[update]...armed with the keywords "Compleat Khash" I just found the two recommended volumes on Abebooks.com at a great price...

At some level, I think Far Away & Never would also hit the Sword & Mythos nail on the head -- it's a Group Read twofer ...

The Lumley stories are fun although he does subscribe to the Derlethian Heresy. Along the same line there are also his Hero & Eldin books -- Hero of Dreams, etc.

And to bring it back to Himself, you could probably make a case for The Dream Quest Of Unknown Kadath.

The Lumley stories are fun although he does subscribe to the Derlethian H..."

Yes especially the Dreamlands books (and Crow books), not so much the Primal Lands books.

As this isn't die hard Lovecraft group I don't know if the people here would think that would matter as much.

For a Sword and Sorcery group I feel the Khash stories fit real well to the topic.

Coincidentally, the book I'm currently reading (The Sword of Shadows by Adrian Cole) took an unexpected Sword & Mythos turn -- the story is now taking place in Ulthar by the river Skai.

Though having read Janet's insightful post, I am nevertheless imagining quasi-historical S&S Lovecraftian cross-over set in ancient SW Asia ... ;)

Were we to accept that the defining aspect of Lovecraft's own "Mythos" is the insignificance of human agents in the face of the universe's unspeakable cosmic horrors, then perhaps any heroic (or anti-heroic?) tale of humans struggling in the face of such forces (irrespective of how much specific Lovecraftian Yog Sothothery they contain) should count.

I think a lot of S&S-style authors would balk at having their heroes go insane upon glimpsing the "true horrors" of the cosmos. While Lovecraftian references in Howard's works (as an archetypical example of S&S) are well known, IMO they tend to be there to add atmosphere, I think: Conan drifts past Loveraftian elements -- or whacks them upside the head. Conan (IMO) is about self-determination in the face of whatever the universe may throw at him -- which is not very Lovecraftian. :) Perhaps a Swords & Mythos collection should compare and contrast two such approaches? :)

Though at the same time, yes: there's no more reason to restrict S&S to a Howardian vision than to restrict an understanding of "μῦθος" to Lovecraft.

I have for some years been mulling over a short story about Spanish priests in Colonial South America accidentally riling up some locally based Lovecraftian horrors -- though I don't see swords doing a lot of good in that particular tale! ;)

Carl wrote: "Though having read Janet's insightful post...Were we to accept that the defining aspect of Lovecraft's own "Mythos" is the insignificance of human agents in the face of the universe's unspeakable cosmic horrors, then perhaps any heroic (or anti-heroic?) tale of humans struggling in the face of such forces (irrespective of how much specific Lovecraftian Yog Sothothery they contain) should count..."

Carl, you hit on a good point. There is a paradox to "Sword & Mythos" at first glance since protagonists are presented with unknown-horrors. Present this is a post-medieval setting and have the character be passive, and you have the Mythos part. Dump the character in pre-gun setting and have them fight the monstrosity, and you have yourself Sword & Mythos.

What is at the heart of Mythos then? The same that differentiates Sword & Mythos vs. Sword & Myth: The creatures and their purpose.

I am reminded of Hercules or Perseus: their exploits against fantastic creatures are more Sword & Myth (not Mythos….the adventures are steered by established gods). Pit them against some indescribable, crab-walking, winged beast, with octopus tentacles for hair (weird but not traditionally “mythical”, especially since they serve some unknown god or purpose) and we have Sword & Mythos.

Your brewing story re: Spanish Priests in colonial times might explore the boundaries well: established relogion vs. unknown gods... sounds very Solomon Kane-ish.

S.E, you mean like Perseus and Medusa?

Janet wrote: "S.E, you mean like Perseus and Medusa?"

LOL. I think Janet caught me. Medusa is pretty Cthulhu-like (or should I say Cthulhu is rather Medusa-like).

S.E. wrote: "Janet wrote: "S.E, you mean like Perseus and Medusa?"

LOL. I think Janet caught me. Medusa is pretty Cthulhu-like (or should I say Cthulhu is rather Medusa-like)."

"Release the Kraken!"

Joseph wrote: "..."Release the Kraken..."

Joseph, Funny. Are you implying that "Pirates of the Caribbean" is Sword & Mythos?

Lol... We're probably treading into the realm of tropes. "Khlulhloominoid", anyone?

S.E. wrote: "Joseph wrote: "..."Release the Kraken..."

Joseph, Funny. Are you implying that "Pirates of the Caribbean" is Sword & Mythos?"

They had swords! Although actually I was thinking of Clash of the Titans, which also had swords.

Joseph wrote: "...They had swords! Although actually I was thinking of Clash of the Titans..."

One thing is certain: there are too many Kraken's out there to be released. Davy Jones, the undead octopus-faced captain who called upon his own Kraken, is Cthulhu-like himself. Cripes. I am begining to see "Mythos" everywhere.

Looks like the current "Sword & Mythos" group read could have a broad scope afterall.

Still thinking (probably unhealthily ;)) about this issue .... I suppose a critical element of Sword & Mythos might have to be the purposed struggle against the incomprehensible horrors. After all, if we deal with sword-wielding human agents going helplessly mad in the face of the universe's unspeakable cosmic horrors, then we really just have Mythos with pre-modern window dressing. :) That's cool :) but also different from a situation in which sword-wielding human agents do not go helplessly mad in the face of the universe's unspeakable cosmic horrors. So how can this be achieved ...? I suppose, logically, a critical process for the Swords & Mythos hero would be that by which the universe's incomprehensible, unspeakable horrors become comprehensible, speakable horrors -- and thus subject to defeat by sword-slinging human agents. In other words, our iron-thewed heroes would have to be able to successfully confront and reject the notion of their insignificance ....

I'm probably over-thinking this! Bring on the anthologies! :) (For me, preferably in e-formats that can be bought and delivered online ....)

And I oughta read more Solomon Kane, more purposefully. I know I read a few stories quite a while back, but it's something I've been meaning to revisit.

Carl wrote: "And I oughta read more Solomon Kane, more purposefully. I know I read a few stories quite a while back, but it's something I've been meaning to revisit."



The Savage Tales of Solomon Kane is your friend. Although I keep hoping the Del Rey Howards will drop in price, at least for the eBooks.

Carl wrote: "Though having read Janet's insightful post, I am nevertheless imagining quasi-historical S&S Lovecraftian cross-over set in ancient SW Asia ... ;)

Were we to accept that the defining aspect of Lov..."

I think the mythos plus s-&-s combination is intriguing. At heart it's surely a combination of Lovecraft's and Howard's sensibilities, which provides a slight mismatch. Both writers deal with encounters with the other and the underlying panic that results. But for me the horror of Lovecraft is the encounter with the utterly other - whereas with Howard the horror comes from encountering the other and recognizing a fragment of kinship with it. (REH's protagonists often fight otherness by becoming other, or going temporarily (usually!) mad.

Or is that just me?
Phil.

There has almost awlays, almost traditionally, been an element of horror in sword and sorcery, and in a lot of epic/heroic fantasy, too. I think the HPL/REH mash-up works beautifully. I've used HPL, myself. I've also worked in more traditional elements of horror, even Universal Studios monsters, though no mummy or Frankenstein's monster -- yet. Old-school sword and sorcery is fine, but I like what's happening now because the envelope is being pushed, new thoughts and ideas being added, and for me, the move away from the Barbarian Solo type of story is a nice change-up.

Janet wrote: "S.E, you mean like Perseus and Medusa?" So I thought, at least as you describe it.