LDS Ladies Book Club discussion
Closed Threads
>
I'm new here with many question. One is: Is the LDS market broad enough for clean romantic sizzle?
I have also loaded a chapter or two on here of three of my books, if you'd rather read and comment here. :) Thank you so very, very much!
I know where you're coming from, and I have done the same thing. As to blacklisting, I don't know. I was turned down down by Deseret Book, but they didn't give me a reason. I am now waiting to hear from the next one I tried (one publisher at a time for me!). I was nominated for a Whitney, but didn't get to be a finalist, and again, I don't know the reason (but I thought it was interesting to note that many of this year's finalists were last year's winners). Because of my mother's health and other issues, I will not be able (again) to go to any of the LDStorymaker's conference this year, and I'm not a member. I have this strange feeling I would be trying (unsuccessfully) to break into an elite group. I hope that's my imagination, because I expect better from LDS people. But I have all good reviews so far and I have marketed to members and non-members. I have a kid to get to school, but I will check out your chapters later! I was not raised a member, joined when I was 18, and grew up in Western New York. I have a very different perspective from many church members, and used that to the hilt. So far people appreciate it, but I think a publisher would help me reach more people for sure!
Thank you for your input, Jane. I appreciate it very much. I, too, have tried Deseret Book and was rejected without explanation. I do know though that they are super busy and don't have time to explain, although it would have been wonderful to have their insight. I think it was obvious to me that my book was just too steamy. Like I said before, I'm trying to contrast uncontrolled desire to those who choose control and honor. (Maybe that should apply to me?) I feel like I'm a good person, but I've struggled with feeling worthy to put my work out there because it sizzles. Maybe I'm just silly, or maybe it's my conscience? I don't know. I'm pretty darn sensitive and worry about offending anyone; yet, at the same time, I feel I can tell a pretty good story. Just looking for feedback from my LDS friends. :) Thank you!
Covenant actually prints more LDS fiction than Deseret. Have you tried them and Cedar Fort? I find a wider variety in books carried by either of them. Good luck!
Thank you, Laura. I have tried both and was rejected as well. So maybe it is just my writing style period. I work at improving all the time, but none of that will help if I'm just not a good writer. :) I would love feedback on my writing because of this question. Am I any good? Am I good enough to keep submitting my work to publishers? I worked steadily on editing until I began homeschooling this year. My son had a bad year last year, so we're undoing the damage done. So now I have very little time to write. He's more important right now. However, when I do get a chance, I work like crazy. Please read, anyone (those with time :]), and let me know if you think I'm good enough to keep submitting to publishers. Really appreciate it. :)
I'm waiting to hear from Cedar Fort right now, it's been three months, and that is how long it's supposed to take! I'll try Covenant next if they turn me down. But no matter how many times they turn me down, I'll keep self publishing until I make it.
I was curious to look into this after reading your comment. I think you would appreciate forthrightness? You Will get both positive & negative reactions. Not because of an LDS perspective but because people have such different tastes & opinions on 'clean'. I skimmed through your first chapter of the governess & to be honest, it is not my cup of tea. Not for the 'sizzle' factor, but the genre. Right now I'm not real interested in the 'romance' genre. But I do know of others that would really enjoy it. And the 'sizzle' if it is clean. I felt you still would appreciate a response though. Just FYI. My rule of thumb on whether it is clean or not is if I could listen to it on audiobook & not be uncomfortable if an adult walked into the room because of the content.
If you are unsure or feeling guilt reading it, as the author, then IMO you will have that even more so with your readers. Especially an LDS audience. 'Avoid even the appearance' & all that involves. Now, that being said. I enjoy a well written account of personal struggle or the contrast between right and wrong choices & their outcomes. And to be honest, I don't think that would be an issue, but content always would be. (I have not read enough of your work to give an accurate opinion either way.) So if YOU are comfortable with your stories & their content, then, by all means, put them out there. You can't know for sure how it will be recieved until you do. :)
One last thought, Deseret book is after all, a publishing company & not the LDS audience.
Good luck with your writing!
Ellise and Jane, if you would like a national editor to critique the first page of your manuscript, (and my editors are thorough, believe me) I offer this free service on my blog. Just submit your double-spaced 12 pt font first page to juliecoulterbellon@gmail.com with First Page Friday in the subject line. I know it helps to get a professional second set of eyes on your work. You can see other First Page Friday critiques on my blog http://ldswritermom.blogspot.com. Also, LDStorymakers is an authors guild for traditionally published authors, so you won't be admitted unless you have been published by a traditional publisher.
Hope that helps a little bit.
Thank you so much, Julie! Very sweet! Any help is good for those of us still struggling to get noticed and have no moolah to have editors look at it, etc. So, I kindly thank you, Julie for your offer. :) I'll be sending it along as soon as I can. Still in school today with my son, in and out a lot of the schoolroom. ;) So it might take me awhile.
No problem. I love helping new authors. The publishing world is a crazy business for sure. Another suggestion is to get a critique group, whether online or in person, for feedback. I know it's been valuable for me, even though I'm a published author, to have a group where I can hone my craft.
There are also some great writing blogs that can help as well. www.jordanmccollum.com offers free writing guides to help authors with plotting, character arcs, and point of view so you can avoid common new author/aspiring author mistakes.
So, a couple of suggestions. Hope it helps!
This is very helpful, Julie. Thank you so much! ;)I'll check things out just as soon as I can (between fractions and decimals today). :)
Same to you. Now I'm curious and will have to check you out as well. I LOVE finding new authors to read. I'm so addicted (as you may be able to tell looking at my list of reads).
I write international romantic suspense. My first books were LDS, (I'm published by Covenant) but I write for the national market now. I've been told my books are a cross between James Bond and Jack Bauer. I like that analogy. :) Check me out for sure! You can read all my first chapters here www.juliebellon.com or here http://ldswritermom.blogspot.com
This has been my experience with the LDS publishing market. I had a "romance" that I submitted to Cedar Fort, that was accepted for publication if I was willing to make massive revisions to the story. They liked the first half of the book and my writing style, but because of a poor choice of one of my characters (which in my mind was critical to the story line) they did not want to publish it 'as is'. The question will come down to whether Deseret Book Stores, and Seagull Books will stock your work. The policy at Seagull, is if the owner's 12 year old granddaughter cannot read the book, then they will not stock it. To me it is a shame. I believe they are losing out on some wonderful writing and thought provoking and soul searching fiction because of these policies. I decided to self-publish instead, hoping that I can market the book well enough on my own to generate a modest following. Good luck to you. I look forward to perusing your website and seeing some of your work.
Thank you, A. R., for your insight. I look forward to getting to know you as well. I guess some of my concerns are the same. I wouldn't recommend a 12 year old reading my book, but, because I've written it, should I be ashamed that it has content that would be inappropriate for a 12 year old audience?
My audience is for women. But I cannot control who would pick up the book and read it. However, in my defense, I have striven (is that a word?) to show that choice is crucial to one's happiness and that of others around us.
Just to add, it all comes down to the marketability of your book to companies that cater to the LDS market. Here is the official stance from Covenant. "Because our market consists almost exclusively of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we usually publish only those works with specific LDS content. However, in the case of some fiction genres—including fantasy, historical fiction set before the mid-1800s or in a place where the Church was unknown, and Christmas stories—we will accept general Christian-themed pieces. You are welcome to send specific questions to our submissions department. We will not accept manuscripts that contain offensive material, including profanity, vulgarity, excessive violence, or sexually explicit or suggestive scenes."
I think that's where the problem comes in is different people have different definitions of what is too "suggestive" for an LDS audience. For example, in one of my books a reader complained that one of the kisses between my main characters was too steamy. Yet other readers felt like since it was the last kiss before dying,(or so they thought) it should have been steamier. Covenant would rather err on the side of caution, I'm sure, than risk offending its fan base, so it makes sure that the books they publish are appropriate and within the boundaries the company has set. The LDS market has room for everyone, though, (Zarahemla books publishes edgy LDS stuff, not necessarily steamy for example) but shelf space is at a premium for sure, and books published by Covenant and Deseret Book, and others that adhere to their guidelines will always be given priority at stores like Seagull and Deseret Book who stock them.
Both Deseret Book and Covenant have readers who carefully go over manuscripts for quality and marketability. It is a business after all. And they listen carefully to what their customer base wants.
My two (or four) cents.
Alicia, I just now saw your comment. Sorry that I didn't see and respond to it earlier. Thank you! I do appreciate forthrightness. So I thank you for yours--it helps. I have to admit, I'm a pretty timid person, so any thought of attention towards me and in my general direction is difficult for me to handle. Strange, you ask? Yes, I agree. But let me give you a little heads up on where I'm coming from, if you don't mind. :)I had cancer in 2007, and the financial struggle has been, as you can imagine, an enormous weight. My health has continued to decline, even though I'm supposedly cancer free. I refuse to be sick and lie down and die. :) (I get that stubborn streak from mom...) Anyway, I think my kids deserve more out of life than what they've gotten over the last few years. And with that in mind, I began to write. I couldn't work outside the home because of my health to help with our income. So I tried to come up with a way to help from home. This is what I came up with. Any of you out there writing will laugh at this now, as I am doing. Writing and publishing is a long and complicated route to take towards income. Arduous, in fact! So, my goals have changed. They no longer include writing for income. I still hope and dream of that goal, but now, since writing is in my blood, I want to write and want to succeed. That's a quick bit in a nutshell. Kinda of complicated, really...but, there you have it.
I like your candor. Thank you. I do realize that I have to be comfortable with my writing for myself. I'm just not sure if I'll ever achieve that goal. :)
Thanks for all your thoughts everyone! Keep them coming, if you don't mind. I'm learning here. Learning about myself as well. ;)
Ellise wrote: "Thank you, A. R., for your insight. I look forward to getting to know you as well. I guess some of my concerns are the same. I wouldn't recommend a 12 year old reading my book, but, because I'..."
Ellise wrote: "Thank you, A. R., for your insight. I look forward to getting to know you as well.
I guess some of my concerns are the same. I wouldn't recommend a 12 year old reading my book, but, because I'..."
I agree - that's what my novel is all about - choices and how they affect our lives.
And truthfully, I think is depends on the 12 year old. Unfortunately, some of them are very savvy. I don't think there is anything wrong with writing realistic fiction as long as the language is not offensive, the 'steamy' part is behind closed doors, as well as the violence. We live in the world...we know what goes on. Hopefully our writing can encourage being apart from the world in our character and actions, but I think it can help teach us as well. When personality, motivation and intent are examined, when poor choices show consequences, we have the opportunity for open discussion and learning.
You can give LDS publishing a try and see where it leads. If you are receiving rejections from them, it is probably because the publisher deems the work unsuitable for the market, which is mostly Utah. And unfortunately there is a small vocal minority in Utah that complains profusely if they think the work is inappropriate. BYU theater department struggles with this element constantly.
I guess it is a controversial topic. That's why I was so hesitant to discuss it. One of my favorite movies is the recent Jane Eyre. If anyone has read Jane Eyre, they will understand where I'm going with this. (Spoiler alert!)
On Jane's supposed wedding day, she finds out that Mr. Rochester is already married and that he was willing to endure God's displeasure with him just so he could finally find some happiness for his future with Jane. Jane honors God and believes what she has been taught all her life. Instead of giving in to this very real temptation (she loved him and had been looking forward to being his darling wife in every way), she literally ran from his house with nothing but her clothes on her back, not fearing death or starvation, but rather fearing sinning before God. She was AMAZING! I respect her character so much for this. To me, she shows such a great example. It reminds me of Joseph fleeing Potiphar's wife, even leaving his clothes in her hand. Both feared God more than man.
I think this is where my inspiration comes from. Yes, I have read some of the alternative reading out there. It forever disappoints me. It is one of the strongest reasons for the way I write. I didn't want to pick up another Scottish romance and totally be disappointed that I had to put it down because it was offensive. I had already fallen in love with the characters, the time period, the setting, etc. But I had to put it down. I understand that many would put mine down. But I was hoping that what I was creating was something beautiful, inspiring, and enriching, showing that we do have it in us to be strong.
Anyway, it sounds like I've created this masterpiece, and I know I haven't or otherwise it would have been snatched up by now, right? :) teehee... But, I have put a lot of time and love into it and was only hoping I could have something come of it, even if only just a little. :)
I appreciate all the indulgence I've had and don't mean to monopolize. Thanks everyone! :) ~Ellise
I just saw message #19, Julie. Thank you for that. That helps. I can totally see your point. I'm actually good with that explanation. Very good, actually. I've never been offended by the books I read published by them, and now I know why. Mine would offend many. So, I'm good. Thanks!
I know there's a market for what I have. I just have to find it. :)
Julie wrote: "Ellise and Jane, if you would like a national editor to critique the first page of your manuscript, (and my editors are thorough, believe me) I offer this free service on my blog. Just submit your..."Julie--You just need the first page? Not the first chapter, right?
Yes, we just do the first page. It's a thorough critique though. :)
Thank you. I'll send along tonight. :)
Wow, there is a lot here. I didn't know a lot of those things. My books are for adults, but I'm pretty sure anyone's 12 year old daughter could read them without getting too excited. LDStorymakers is missing out on a lot of good books with that policy. I have been writing reviews for KBR Book Review and almost all of those books are self published. A couple of the books I have reviewed are some of the best I have ever read. I think you can still go to the LDStorymakers conferences, though. And I think of Anne Perry, who is LDS, though she doesn't write LDS fiction. She pulls no punches. I think I will be sending along the first page of my first two books for you to do, Julie. It will take about 15 seconds to read, but maybe you can tell me something I need to know. Ellise, I know how you feel with the issues you have been having. I haven't had cancer, but my mother has it, and is about to go through chemo and stem cell treatment again. I was hoping I could attend some of the writer's conference, but it won't be happening. I have a 12 year old son with autism and a 7 year old son with Asperger's and they are just about all I can do as far as work goes. Julie, I won your book through LDS Publishers and haven't had a chance to read it yet! I will though. And thanks everyone for all this information.
Jane, there are several indie groups out there, so I think it's fine that LDStorymakers is exclusive for traditionally published authors. And anyone can go to the LDStorymakers conferences. They're one of the best around, for sure! There are a ton of LDS writers who don't write for the LDS market---Brenda Novak and Carla Kelly come to mind right away, Stephenie Meyer, Brandon Sanderson and Tracy Hickman as well. We're a pretty diverse people I think and it shows in the writers who are best-sellers, but not in the LDS market per se.I'm excited to hear what you think of my book. Which one is it?
All Fall Down. I do write for the LDS market, but also for non members. I have a mix of characters.
Well, definitely let me know what you think of it. All Fall Down is one of my favorites, and I'm currently working on the sequel to it. :)
this is my second one, Reigning Cats and Dogs, free Feb 28-Mar 2.http://www.amazon.com/Reigning-Cats-H...
Thank you for the free download of your book Jane: Reigning Cats and Dogs. I just downloaded it.
you're welcome, I hope you like it. Please let me know what you think!
You might be interested in talking to a friend of mine who has become somewhat of an expert on Mormon literature. He and some of his colleagues hold competitions for LDS writers. He might be able to direct you to some alternate means for publishing or offer any other professional guidance. His name is Scott Hales. His blog is http://www.low-techworld.org/. Here is one of his facebook pages about a writing competition he hosts: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mormon... For purposes of introduction should you choose to get in touch with him, my name is Sara Richins (though he knows me better by my maiden name, Macy)
I think there is a market out there for the kind of fiction we all write, but not a marketing arm for it. How do we know what is out there? Does anyone have an idea of how we can publicize our work to the LDS market that wants more than what it available through traditional publishing routes? Self-publishing would be a great alternative is we had some way to let readers know what's out there.
I appreciate all the comments. These are all very thought provoking. I have self-published my book, The Sixth Power, as an ebook, and my husband and I are working on marketing. We have learned a lot. I'd like to know the answer to A.R.'s question too.
I don't know of any. If I'm not snatched up by a publisher or agent by the time my edits are finished, I'm going to self-publish too. But the marketing...that's the hard thing. It'll have to be an awfully good book to get anyone's attention. Only a rare few will ever come across websites, blogs, etc., and come upon it or find it online. So, we either have to cater to the publisher or market or be so awesome we can stand alone--which means, someone would snatch us up anyway with an amazing deal, right? But, unless that happens, I'm not familiar enough with the marketing world to make it happen well myself. :( Here's to our success, ladies! :)
There are a ton of marketing blogs out there to help self-published authors. Just poke around the internet and you'll get some ideas. :)
Julie wrote: "There are a ton of marketing blogs out there to help self-published authors. Just poke around the internet and you'll get some ideas. :)"This is very good to know, Julie. I guess we'll have to make time (that means stop our writing--Oh dear!) to do the research. Goodness! Why can't we just write? :)
I found this an interesting question because I've struggled with this too as both an LDS writer and a regular writer. I don't know what to do when it comes to sexual tension in an LDS novel. Mostly I tried to step around it entirely in my first book and just concentrate on other things. I think that the advent of more indie pub options let you make a market niche for yourself and I think you would find there was an audience for a romance that was clean but contained some tension.
Thank you, Amber. I find your comments helpful. Anyone else? :) Thanks!
Amber wrote: "I found this an interesting question because I've struggled with this too as both an LDS writer and a regular writer. I don't know what to do when it comes to sexual tension in an LDS novel. Most..."I agree, Amber. Personally, I think it adds some depth to a story. Doesn't have to be explicit...in fact I think it's better when its not, both morally and artistically. For romance readers, I think it's elemental.
Agreed A.R. and I think that it is a part of reality. But dealing with it is hard.
Many books that I have read that are written from an LDS viewpoint are too shallowly written, I think partly because they skirt around issues or situations that are uncomfortable, or they don't get deep enough. I think that if you want to write a good book, then you've got to write about characters and situations that are "real" - even when they are in a fantasy story, they have to strike a chord with us of reality. That doesn't mean we have to write graphic sex or gory violence. I don't think it's necessary to carry the story. But the emotions have to be real.
Carol wrote: "Many books that I have read that are written from an LDS viewpoint are too shallowly written, I think partly because they skirt around issues or situations that are uncomfortable, or they don't get..."Well said. You have zeroed in on the problems with mainstream LDS literature. It's almost as if characters who are LDS are not allowed to have 'real' problems - real trials that challenge their faith - real temptations that cause a person to wrestle with their beliefs and values - something that may cause them to really question what their relationships to God and to other people are. There is value in a fictional story that causes us to look at our own lives and say - "What would I do (or think, or feel) if this were my situation."
I've always felt that as well, which is why I have avoided reading mainstream LDS literature previously. Very well said
I disagree, I think you can find those kinds of LDS books if that's what you're looking for. LDS mainstream literature hits a wide range of topics, including what you're talking about (real problems etc.), and most do it well. For me, I read for entertainment purposes. I can read about and see challenges and stresses and trials of faith all around me. Reading is my escape and we do have great writers in LDS literature.
For example, if I want to read a mystery that is every bit as good as a national title---but without the language and immorality, I will pick up a Stephanie Black, Josi Kilpack, or Jeff Savage book. If I want a good historical regency without anything offensive to me I'll pick up a Sarah Eden book, GG Vandagriff or a Julianne Donaldson.
For some really great suggestions on what's out there in LDS literature you can look at the Whitney awards, who award outstanding LDS literature each year.
My two cents.
As seen in my reading lists, I read mainly 'Christian' fiction. Since I'm LDS, I love what the market has for us that way. I just wanted part of it. Didn't get it. Oh well. I'll still read it all. I love it. I'm addicted to it! :) I read a lot of other Christian fiction that's available, too, and mainly for the same reasons--I won't be offended by graphic anything, yet I'll be uplifted and inspired. Mine just fits into a different category, and I see that now. Hopefully, it will still inspire and uplift, as I hope it does; but I also know that it has a little more grit. It's a real world issue that deals with real world people and the temptations. It's not the average, mainstream anything. There's attempted rape, seduction, and some innocent, but highly sizzling kisses. I just have to decided whether I'm brave enough (or stupid enough) to put my name on it. :) Maybe that's why people invented pen names. I should get me one of those!!!! Anyway, I love it all, people. But I have to admit that I don't necessarily want to become hooked on a book and then have to put it down because it's embarassing...like walking in on someone while they're undressing. Slightly embarassing. I truly am trying to be sensitive about that.
This has turned out to be a very good conversation. I've learned so much from everyone. Thanks!
Thanks Ellise for getting a good conversation started.I, too, read Christian Lit, among other things, and I agree that it's nice to pick up a book and not be offended by language, sex and the like.
But I have been repeatedly disappointed with LDS Lit. I picked up a WWII Thriller, written by an LDS writer, promoted by LDS publishers, and loved it....UNTIL...in the middle of the book, the LDS protagonist takes his "LDS prisoner of war" to a sacrament meeting. Seriously??? It's that kind of thing that drives me crazy. I was engulfed in the story...loving the characters...loving the suspense and then THAT? It was like getting slapped in the face.
Or there are the books that preach at us. It is possible to write a spiritual story that does not come across as a missionary lesson. We, as LDS readers, know the doctrine - it doesn't need to be spelled out to us. The best of Christian fiction lets faith and belief come out in their character and their reactions to situations, not in a sermon.
And I do think that what I have read in mainstream LDS fiction does leave characters on the shallow side. Either by not exploring their emotional struggles, or not giving us enough background into the psyche of the character, or sugar coating the experiences that they endure. (And don't even get me started on the sugar-coated endings.)
Ellise, I would love to see what you have written and I hope you find an outlet for it. In my novel, David's Song, I write the story of a woman whose marriage is struggling when she runs into an old flame. She has a choice, leave her husband and move on, or go back and rebuild. It's a story about choices - about what's really important in life. Is it LDS? It begins at BYU and there are mentions of prayer, and it is CLEAN...although there is a kiss shared that should not have been. (The sequel deals with the consequences of that). Is my story considered inappropriate? I don't think so. I think it deals with real life issues, without the superficial "all is well in Zion" overtones. But, again, it is not what an LDS publisher will touch.
It is nice to see that there are readers out there who want a bit more in their LDS literature. I know the writers are out there, they just need an outlet.
Thanks for the discussion. It's been fun and therapeutic! :D
I am LDS but have written to a general Christian audience. My novels (so far) have been historical romance--the stuff I grew up reading. We didn't have much LDS fiction (mainly romance) available when I was younger, so I read a lot of Victoria Holt, Phyllis A. Whitney, etc. So that's what my writing style and experience has been. I have been kicking around some LDS market ideas and actually have one in the works. But my first books are to that general historical romance market.
I must admit, I do like a little sizzle. But I always like it clean. I have found that the contrast between good and evil choices, and what the outcome of those choices will bring is an interesting read. My books have clean romance, but the sizzle is there. I'm not sure if the LDS market would blacklist me or not? What is your opinion on this subject?
Honestly, what has appealed to me about writing this style is the contrast in choice. In my stories, I have contrasted one man's desire for the woman he's attracted to with that of another main character's. I specifically show that on one hand, because the man is truly a gentleman, he values and cherishes her virtue, even with his strong desires for her. Then I show the difference with the other character, and how, by not controlling his desires, his outcome is detrimental.
I would appreciate very much your LDS perspective, ladies. Please help me. If you wish to look at my work, please click here: http://www.elliseweaver.weebly.com
I appreciate any help offered. Thank you!
Ellise ;)