The Importance of Reading Ernest discussion

I never watched the Sopranos but am familiar with the famous / infamous final scene and I felt for those folks who had invested so much time in that show to be left with a black box and lots of questions. I feel the same way each time I read a Hemingway story. He does such a great job with presenting a scene with some good character description and then the reader (or at least this reader) is left sitting there, hold the book, wondering. Granted, I've not invested as much time in a Hemingway 'short' short story as the Sopranos fans, but I do feel a bit cheated.

I'm curious to know if I'm the only one that feels this way about this and the last few stories we've read.

Thanks!

I have always enjoyed that about Hemingway myself, but I suppose it is just a taste thing. Subjectivity, I suppose.

I have always thought of his technique as giving us responsibility for what is to come, both to decide for ourselves how we want the story to go and to take the cues from the characters for what they will do. Of course, that could have been an early mechanism of justification that I used to not let the lack of "satisfying" endings bother me. I'm not sure. I've been reading him for so long now it's hard to say anymore.

I have a feeling you're not the only who's going to feel cheated, Ruth. I like your comparison to Sopranos. It's a good thing his short stories are mostly short so that it doesn't invest you too much before letting you down.

Well, for another 'idiot box' allusion, I was not satisfied with the series finale of Battlestar, so maybe having questions about the ending or creating your own ending might be the better option. Since reading the story, I have bounced back to the characters from time to time and envisioned various story lines. I think my initial response might have been too initial. Sorry for that.

Ruth wrote: "Well, for another 'idiot box' allusion, I was not satisfied with the series finale of Battlestar, so maybe having questions about the ending or creating your own ending might be the better option. ..."

Don't be sorry. I thought it was a great point, and one that is a valid concern. Reader expectations of a satisfactory ending are an important part of the writer/reader relationship, and when those expectations aren't met it can be off putting. Some authors alter that relationship over the course of their work (like Hemingway...the more one reads him the more one gets used to his "endings"), but many authors who try to alter the relationship get nowhere because no one is reading their work.

I just started watching Battlestar Galactica this past week, so I am far away from the ending, but the general feeling I get is that it was a let down. Bummer

Oh, don't stop watching BG because of my response to the ending. Everyone views things differently. My husband who watched the same finale I did said he thought it was almost a perfect ending. It's a wonderfully well done show that deals with a number of current issues from a different perspective. I'm going to miss spending time with most of those characters.

I'll continue to read the Hemingway stories. I've not read many, but the characters remain and I'm trying to learn to accept fuzzy endings.

Ruth wrote: "I'll continue to read the Hemingway stories. I've not read many, but the characters remain and I'm trying to learn to accept fuzzy endings. ..."

Have you read any of his novels? I think you might really dig The Old Man and the Sea. (There's a good ending ;)) It is a novella, so a short and fast read, but it extends what is beautiful about Hemingway's writing into a much richer tale.

And I will definitely keep going with Galactica.I have been impressed, so far.

Here is a general note that might be helpful.While I recall many of Hemingway's stories in great detail, I don't remember much about "Out Of Season." There may be a point in there somewhere.
In Our Time was Hemingway's first published book, and in a way it was a seminal one.What he did is to write what would have been called a "bildungsroman" were it a novel and not a collection of short stories. As with a novel, it is meant to be read from the first page to the conclusion, since the author's purpose is to show how a young hero eventually moves from "innocence to experience."
In reading it that way,you should note how in the first story, "Indian Camp," an innocent young Nick believes nothing can touch him as long as he has his father to protect him. The remaining stories serve todisabuse him of that notion,as each offers a lesson about a progressively more dangerous world. By the final story, "Big Two Hearted River Part 2," Nick is so beaten down by all that has gone before,that he has returned to his spititual home, Nature,to heal himself for what he now recognizes will inevitably come.That is why he looks down the more dangerous branch and chooses not to enter,knowing full well"there would be plenty of time" to risk that in the future.

If you are interested, my first collection, Half-Past Nowhere, was written as a tribute to Hemingway, as I patterned it after In Our Time.It too follows the adventures of a young hero as he learns about the harshness of life. My character, Joey Fusaro is not nearly as handsome as Nick, but at least he is ethnically correct and looks suspiciously like me. More later. Best.

You make a good point about the growth of Nick in In Our Time, Joseph, and it is certainly something important to consider. Out of Season is, however, not generally considered one of the Nick Adams stories. Still, I really think the "innocence to experience" theme you raise has some relevance in Out of Season. I will open up a thread for that, and maybe you could expand it giving us some thoughts on how that applies to the story.

I am curious what you mean by "ethnically correct"?

Brad,
It will be a while before I can get to "Out of Season." I'm busy getting ready for the debut of my new book(Love Songs in Minor Keys) here in Charlotte, N.C., and for the many signings and talks assosciated with it.
"Ethnically correct" was an attempt (obviously uncucessful) at humor. I meant to suggests that not only does the main character in my first book(Half-Past Nowhere) look like me, but he is Italian as am I and thus of the same ethnicity as his creator, me.
I've read most everything that Hemingway wrote, as well as many critical reviews of his work when I was in graduate school. Bottom line,according to the Ph.D's:
1)Hemingway was a better short story than novelist.
2) The two novels which are favored by the critics are his first,The Sun Also Rises, and one of his last, THe Old Man and the Sea.
3)Although each critic has his favorite short stories, I'm sure you'll enjoy reading "A Clean Well Lighted Place,"(my favorite). I don't think he ever wrote a stinker, though.
Best.

Apologies for having been away, as I'd very much like to contribute regularly. We had a Crime Writer Fair here in Denmark, which I attended and spent some time at and prepared for (reading stuff).

Ruth always makes very interesting comments. And I, too, have often been put off by Hem's 'unclear' endings. We'll just have to accept them, Ruth, as they are. But I agree with you.

As for the comments by Joseph. I wish him luck with his book. And I find it interesting how different we all feel about Hem's skills as a writer. Was he a better short story writer than novelist? (Brad, that issue might interest other group members as a special topic.) Not so sure about that, Joseph. I find the novels more satisfying, because of the details.

But I do think his stories are models for other writers, as Joseph points out. My favourite, as I mentioned elsewhere, is the Macomber story.

And, also interesting, we tend to prefer different novels. My favourite is 'A Farewell to Arms', with 'The Sun Also Rises' as a very close second. I re-read 'Farewell' every year and never get tired of being in good company. Being written in the 1st person enhances the nearness to the material.

Regards to all.

Hey Preb

You probably meant to say Ruth makes very interesting complaints. My appreciation for Mr Hemingway isn't progressing as fast as I had hoped. Could someone please tell me again what stories are contenders for the next read. I hope to read them early and ponder them before I offer more complaints.

Happy Weekend and Good Reads!

The next story is Alpine Idyll, Ruth. You can start reading now and get an early leap on the those complaints ;)

I, too, love it when Hemingway writes in the first person, Preb. "I re-read 'Farewell' every year and never get tired of being in good company." What a perfect way to put it. I prefer the bad company of The Sun Also Rises, however.

Hemingway is generally accepted as the master of the short story, as Joseph says, and I agree with that "academic" assessment. I think that short stories have become awfully boring in the last few decades. There is a standard beginning, middle and end. The focus of short stories has almost universally become telling what the experts call "a complete story." That in itself isn't a bad thing, but there was a time -- when Hemingway and Faulkner -- were writing short stories that the form was there for exploration, experimentation. Many writers, not just Hemingway, used the short story to explore character, dialogue, sensation, and a "complete story" was not important. A vignette, a moment in time, was all that was needed to express what the author wanted to express; hence the discomfort many feel at the way Hemingway's stories end, or don't end (depending on one's point of view).

Wonderful comments by so many. Thanks Brad . And Ruth. And Preb.

I love Brad's comment about the modern short story. I find so many of them relatively well written in an MFA sort of way, but offering very little insight into the human condition.That was never true of Faulkner et.al. He was never in a rush to get to the ending, and getting there was as important as the arrival itself. Check out "The Bear" for example with its wonderful build-up to the ending where the father reads Keats,"Ode On A Greacean Urn" to his son.So many readers today want stories that are merely interesting. Different. Cute.That's offering a lot less than a story that has the added virtue of saying something.
Regarding Hemingway's unsatisfactory endings, let me offer two brief comments.
First, critics often compared his stories to an iceberg.Both had a lot going on just beneath the surface.
Secondly, Hemingway saw himself as a reporter, a job he greatly enjoyed while working at The Kansas City Star.I think he never forgot those days of the who and the when and the where etc. and left it for his readers to draw their own conclusions. (though he often kind of nudged you in the right direction).
I still remember "Farewell" fondly. The first few pages of description are perfect.As is the ending when he realizes kissing "Cat" was like kissing a marble statue.
Please consider reading, "A Clean Well-lighted Place." I think that's Ernest at his finest.