Science Fiction Aficionados discussion

Hi everyone!

The 2013 Series Read chosen is Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga. The series is long-running (15 books and still going) and award-winning (4 Hugo awards so far). We will be starting this month with Book 1 in the series, Shards of Honour.

I read this book a LONG time ago (and the rest of the series) and loved it. So I'm excited to get to re-read them - I don't remember much.

Suzanne, I'm envious of you, not remembering. I've read this series at least 7 times and was re-reading it last fall so as to re-read the latest Ivan, His Booke, which is officially titled Captain Vorpatril's Alliance. My review (after reading the eARC) was lengthy and seems to have garnered a few likes.

I'm "stuck" on Komarr (haha) which is one of my least-favorite books, probably because I dislike the Ekaterin character. I like her more, however, than the Tej girl Lois cooked up for Ivan. I just turned my roommate onto this series so I might have impetus shortly (no pun intended) to read this again!

I definitely feel like the first part of the series is the best--or rather, the first few books Lois wrote were her best in this universe, back when she was super excited about the possibilities.

Forex, Ethan of Athos was what, her 3d book? It's not 3d in the series but I think it was the 3d one she wrote and it's gotta be one of my favorites, tied up there in the top 3 with "Labyrinth"...who doesn't love the "going to slay a monster when I should have been rescuing a princess" mood?

In Shards she still has this same epic romance, galactic adventure feel. To this day I can see those mud-spattered boots of Aral's standing there in the muck as Cordelia vomits on his not-so-shiny toes (LOL) That's just the tone of their entire life together (haha, sorry, it's just too funny).

Can't wait to see what other first-time readers think of Cordelia and Aral.

-Friday
@phoenicianbooks

I've read portions of the series multiple times. Some of the books are weaker than others, I would say, but which books those are differ according to each reader.

For example, I *loved* "Komarr!" "Ethan of Athos," not so much. :^)

Memory is my favorite of the series.

Looking forward to reading the books that are the weaker ones for me along with you!

Ahhh, we completely agree on Memory :-) but I think that's the beauty of Lois's books. They really do appeal to a wide and varied audience.

I started this yesterday, so hopefully I can get in far enought o join in on the discussion

I've never read this series and am excited to start. I have the omnibus edition Cordelia's Honor so I am set for this month and next. Hoping to start next week!

Looking back, it's really hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that this work was published in 1986. It still doesn't read as "dated" to me. I don't know if that's because I like it so much or if it is true of the work--curious to see how new readers feel.

I read this so many years ago that all I remember is liking it. I enjoyed it very much this time too. I would like to read more about the universe, but I know I will, and I'm so glad to have a character driven story that just happens to be set in an interesting universe. This time around, I really appreciated the "grown-up" romance, where honor was more important than hormones.

Jessie wrote: "Looking back, it's really hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that this work was published in 1986. It still doesn't read as "dated" to me. I don't know if that's because I like it so muc..."

Isn't it amazing how well this book--the whole series for that matter!--holds up against the test of time? Lois had a real vision when it came to creating the Vorkosiverse. She didn't focus on the tech so much as our reaction to it and that, I think, is the key to why her work is so timeless. That, and she's just an incredibly gifted storyteller.

@Kathy - the ominibus is great because the second book, Barrayar, starts like an hour or a day after Shards ends. In my opinion (and it's a much debated opinion among Bujold fans of the Miles books) the omnibus is the whole story and the individual books are artificially "broken" parts of it. Artificially to appease the limits of the publishing industry in 1986.

-Friday
@phoenicianbooks

I finished this the other day and I too enjoyed the 'grown-up' romance...
I probably liked it more knowing it was a prequel to the series regarding their son, but still-it was a good background on how and why they relate to each other. I really loved the 'fountain of honor' part.

Maggie wrote: "[...]I probably liked it more knowing it was a prequel to the series regarding their son, but still-it was a good background ...I really loved the 'fountain of honor' part."

Maggie, this reminds me of my 2 most favorite quotes of the series :

“Some prices are just too high, no matter how much you may want the prize. The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart.” (I'm pretty sure that's from Memory, Miles quoting how he wrestled with his own personal "elephant.")

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. (I'm pretty sure that was Cordelia in A Civil Campaign speaking to Miles)

The thing I noticed when reading Cordelia's Honor this last time (last fall, actually) was just how much of Miles literally came directly from each of his parents. I hadn't noticed it the first 5 or 6 times I'd read the book, being so caught up in the story, but this last time, I really noticed so much "Milesian" behavior in both Aral and Cordelia and had to catch myself. It's the other way around, Aral and Cordelia behavior in Miles (*grin*)

-Friday
@phoenicianbooks

so i am halfway through Shards of Honor and i really like it so far. i loved the quiet and i loved the calm pacing of the first quarter, that trek across the planet. the characters are really absorbing. there was a great scene when Cordelia & Vorkosigan share the big tragedies of their lives that was really well-done and very affecting. the second quarter was a lot of fast-paced fun. i like the balance in the story, the different sides to the planet Barrayar and the character Bothari.

there is just something so no-nonsense and yet so sensitive & nuanced about Bujold's writing style. i dig it!

mark wrote: "there is just something so no-nonsense and yet so sensitive & nuanced about Bujold's writing style. i dig it!"

I agree. Sometimes she *does* write a story that I don't necessarily like, but her writing style is always a draw.

I don't know if there's anything in this book related to the Vorkosigan series, but it just came out:

http://www.myspace.com/loismcmasterbu...

cool, thanks Jessie!

just read another quarter of the book last night. still love it!

i realized last night that this is actually equal parts space opera and romance. actually, it may be a romance in the form of a space opera. not sure if this would have occurred to me if i hadn't just finished reading my first contemporary straight romance. a lot of the same tropes and concerns etc.

i hope my calling it a romance doesn't scare anyone off from reading this one. so far it is excellent and the scifi elements are compelling and front & center.

Mark, I don't think it should turn anyone off this book but I would add two notes to your sharp observation:

1) Lois wanted to write SFR (Science Fiction Romance) and in Cordelia's Honor, I think she wholly succeeded; however....

2) Lois is soooo good at writing (madcap) Adventure and crafting Mystery plots that even Cordelia's Honor came out equal parts SFR and Space Opera.

Once she let Miles Vorkosigan loose on the page, however, all bets were off. Miles had a lot of women in his life, but as Mark later notes, "It's not that he picks up so many women; it's that he never puts one down again." And yet Twue Wuv eludes Miles for many, many books of the series.

The balance of the series is entirely focused on Miles and his great adventures, to the point that when Lois finally wrote Ivan, His Booke, I felt it was missing the secret ingredient found in A Miles Vorkosigan Adventure. I noted and explained this in my review of Captain Vorpatril's Alliance which you can read here.

Lois writes some of the most gripping and memorable mysteries, and epic adventure stories you can read again and again -- as is evidenced by most series readers reading the Vorkosigan Saga again and again (myself: 7 times since I "discovered" it in 2006). Her work is truly for the true SciFi Aficionado ^)^

-Friday
@phoenicianbooks

p.s. Around the time she wrote/released Winterfair Gifts as an entry in a romance genre anthology, Lois said in the forums on Baen's Bars how much she wanted to cross over into romance but her fans seem to think of her as a space opera or fantasy genre writer. Her epic fantasies are extremely popular with fantasy readers -- and again, although they contain the kinds of epic romance Aral and Cordelia have, readers think of them as epic fantasy or high fantasy, not as SFR in fantasy genre.

Lois is just too good at crafting worlds and complex plots that engage to be shoved into the smaller box of romance novelist (which is the genre I write in under another name). Her "romance novels" even have a mystery plot (and yet do not fall into the "romantic suspense" category either)

mark wrote: "just read another quarter of the book last night. still love it!

i realized last night that this is actually equal parts space opera and romance. actually, it may be a romance in the form of a sp..."

I can't remember what character or what book, but someone talks about either Aral's or Miles' (or both) "genius for personnel." Bujold has a genius for character, and that crosses genres.

She's also not too "fussy" about her world building. She's very good at *showing* you instead of *telling* you. There are many scifi/fantasy books I've tried that I might have enjoyed reading, but there was so much detailed and told world building that it ended up being annoying.

I found y'all from a post over at Baen's Bar's LMB page. I'm a rabid fan of all her work. I've read the entire series numerous times and pick up favorite parts to re-read on a monthly basis. I too favor "Memory" as my #1 in this series.

Aral and Cordelia remind me of one of my favorite literary couples: Peter Wimsey and Harried Vane. As older folk who have their own identity and honor, they have a hard time integrating into each other's life without compromising too much of themselves. Their story, told throughout "Shards of Honor" and "Barrayar", established a great foundations from which to launch Miles, one of my favorite characters of all times.

@Marjorie- I love the quotes you sited. The second one, about honor, actually came from Aral to Miles, by way of a request from Gregor to Miles to consult his father on this subject.

Another favorite quote from "Memory" is from Aral to Mark: "All true wealth is biological."

Read Shards of Honor over the weekend. It was fun -- romance, war, political intrigue, and more. I'm looking forward to reading more of the series.

Started off with Book 4 this past week, raced through it to get to Book 1, which I just finished - both were very enjoyable. Loved the end of the book how it just so nicely set up the rest of the series in a way that makes me want to read more.

Bungluna wrote: "I found y'all from a post over at Baen's Bar's LMB page. ...@Marjorie- I love the quotes you sited. The second one, about honor, actually came from Aral to Miles, by way of a request from Gregor to Miles to consult his father on this subject."

Actually, I copy/pasted what Lois, Herself, wrote on the quotes when she entered them into the Goodreads site and I cited (not sited *wink*) what info she provided....though I have to say, I remember the scene vividly. It's after Allegre is in the cell where Duv Galeni had been and Gregor has just gone to visit him and had that "talk."

As everyone knows many books before this line is delivered in Memory, the thing that is Miles's "heart's desire" is to be the Little Admiral, to be in command of the Dendarii Mercenaries. Or is it? is his heart's desire to be respected and admired for himself? THAT is the whole question of the book that is Memory.

Miles, Ivan, Simon and Gregor come down the hall and they all ask Miles, shocked, about what "bribe" had been offered and refused. He explains it then, what Allegre had tried to offer him, and uses that quote. It's an incredible quote for an incredible moment in Miles's life.

After the way Miles so utterly and completely destroyed himself with a lie in the opening of the book, to have so utterly and completely redeemed himself with this level of integrity was just....perfect. It's a classic Bujold ability to tie story threads together this way, like no one else can. She is beyond masterful.

Memory is my #1 favorite book for so many, many reasons. This moment in Miles's life is definitely one of them.

P.S. if we're reading the series in order of "Internal Chronology" then I guess that Memory will be #10 and not read until February of next year (2014)??? That's sad :-(

Marjorie wrote: "P.S. if we're reading the series in order of "Internal Chronology" then I guess that Memory will be #10 and not read until February of next year (2014)??? That's sad :-("

True, but part of the reason I want to reread is to get to some of those books that I *don't* read over and over again in the series--"Equal time!" they shout out.

Since you're going with "internal chronology" shouldn't The Mountains Of Mourning (which can be found as one of the novellas in Borders of Infinity: The Mountains of Mourning / Labyrinth / Borders of Infinity) come between The Warrior's Apprentice and The Vor Game? It is a deeply evocative novella and really sets up who Miles is and what he cares about and who he becomes in the course of the series. I really think it is necessary in order to understand his development.

good point. maybe because it is a novella we can combine the two so that next month's group read is for both.

Mountains of Mourning definitely should be read before The Vor Game; it goes "better" with TVG than with TWA but that's just my opinion.

but isnt it part of one of the other books? that was my understanding

Maggie wrote: "but isnt it part of one of the other books? that was my understanding"

Maggie, The Mountains of Mourning is a short story/novella. It can be bought in a variety of ways, as follows:

1) Standalone eBook from Baen Books (the publisher) for $3.00:
The Mountains of Mourning

2) As part of the omnibus edition which includes The Warrior's Apprentice before it and The Vor Game after it (I highly recommend purchasing this omnibus to get all 3 at an amazingly low price):
Young Miles (omnibus)

Unfortunately, Baen is no longer selling it as a digital omnibus due to licensing issues with Lois where they reverted her rights back to her and she has (I think) elected not to offer it via Kindle. The omnibus is available as a print edition via Amazon:

3) www.amazon.com/Young-Miles-Vorkosigan-Adventures/dp/0743436164/ and is still a great bargain even at those inflated (above cover) prices. You can possibly find a copy in a used book store, too.

4) The last option is to get a copy of the short story by buying the omnibus Alexa mentioned, The Borders of Infinity which includes BoI as the first story, then has a couple of pages of "connecting scene" (Miles visited by Simon while recovering from having his arm bones repaired) then Labyrinth (my all-time favorite short story of the series which is also included in the Miles Errant omnibus) and then another connecting scene followed by MoM. Personally, I don't feel these three stories go together at all and Baen initially bundled them together just to get the short stories into one edition since they didn't fit anywhere else.

Baen no longer sells Borders of Infinity (the omnibus) because again, licensing issues reverted the rights to Lois. The good news is she has actually uploaded that one to Amazon Kindle so it is actually available in digital form (I still recommend the Young Miles omnibus instead)

http://www.amazon.com/Borders-Infinity-3-novella-collection-ebook/dp/B0062CKP2S/ (BoI omnibus, Kindle-only Edition)

Sadly, since it's ONLY available at the Kindle store, this means if you (forex) needed an ePub version for your iPad, you are crap out of luck :-( very sad that Baen is not selling it anymore. They sell all of their eBooks without DRM and in all available formats - buy once, read everywhere just like at Smashwords, but all SF/F, all the time :)

BoI is probably also available in a used book store but you'll have to search hard for it. There weren't many paperbacks printed (only one run IIRC) as its three stories got included in the much better omnibus editions Baen put out in the 90s. You can get some used copies cheap from the Amazon Marketplace:

www.amazon.com/Borders-Infinity-Miles-Vorkosigan-Adventures/dp/0671578294/ (used paperbacks)

HTH!

-Friday
@phoenicianbooks

I found Borders of Infinity on Abebooks -- http://www.abebooks.com -- and there appear to be quite a few used copies for less than $5 (including shipping).

Thanks for the info. Since I already finished The Warrior's Apprentice and have ordered The Vor Game, I'm glad to know I should read Mountains of Mourning before starting The Vor Game!

Linda wrote: "I found Borders of Infinity on Abebooks -- http://www.abebooks.com -- and there appear to be quite a few used copies for less than $5 (including shipping).

Thanks for the info. Since I already fi..."

Oh definitely read MoM before TVG, Linda! Without giving away too many spoilers, let me say this: In MoM you learn about the upper-class-ness of the Vorkosigans--and meet Miles in his mode of yearning to be just an "everyman." I've never really liked MoM because of the crassness of the hill folk in the Vorkosigan's District and I didn't see the point of the story as getting to know Miles but rather as Lois trying to establish some kind of motivation for him to "live up to" - and I'd already felt he had that living in the impossible shadows of his grandfather and his father.

After about the 6th time reading it though, I see how MoM really gives a feel for the fabric of Barrayaran society, the division of classes and how the Vorkosigans ARE upper class but yearn, as a whole family, to establish and BE moderates and equalizers in a society that doesn't like to equalize anyone for anything.

Now, after getting all that Barrayarn background, when you read The Vor Game, you'll really appreciate the shennanigans Emperor Gregor and Miles go through and the real nuances of the underlying plotlines about politics and social climbing on Barrayar. Without really grasping how divided a society it is, Barrayar's class-consciousness kind of gets missed in TVG and it's not only important to the plot but it's one of the hilarious points Lois makes. You'll miss out on good jokes without understanding the Vorkosigans place in Barrayaran Society. I think it also helps in the enjoyment of TVG to really understand Gregor's yearning to be a part of the Vorkosigan family unit is just a yearning to be an "every man" .... like Miles in MoM. Given Miles and Gregor were raised as pseudo step-brothers, this makes sense but you don't pick up on it really unless you get MoM and TVG back to back. Later in the series, the fact of MIles and Gregor's closeness, of course, becomes much more relevant as the two boys grow into manhood and have to take on the adult roles society demands of them.

Boy, I hope I didn't spoiler too much there. It's hard not to chat about this series. I love the way "Lois-isms" creep into my work but I still sit back in awe of her ability to craft complex plots that span multiple books and simultaneously stand alone.

Marjorie, I want to say I just love how you just managed to underscore what makes me so love Bujold, how at first glance she appears to be writing comic space opera, only to have it gradually sink in just what important themes she is discussing!

Alexa, Lois has many layers and so does her writing. I used to compare her artistry to the weavings of a tapestry....you see the big picture right away but the closer you get, the detail you find in the individual threads she weaves in.

This layering of metaphor and theme is why Mirror Dance is tied (w/ Memory) as my favorite book of the series - the metaphor and simile in MD is just about five layers deep! I find something new in it every time I read it!

And thank you for saying You enjoyed my long-winded blathering, Alexa. Sometimes I think I talk too much (haha)

I am a bit behind on the read, but I just started Shards of Honour this week. It is good so far and I think I can finish it next week. I can see this one sucking me in and forgetting about time passing. Might not get much work done here at home for the next few days.

Great book, I had forgotten how much I enjoy Lois McMaster Bujold writing. Finished the book last night. On to the next. I am actually reading the omnibus, Cordelia's Honor, so actually I just turned the page.

I just finished the 3 story collection in Borders of Infinity. Marjorie, thanks again for the recommendation to read Mountains of Mourning before moving on to The Vor Game. I loved all three of the novellas and I have gained a much better appreciation of Miles. It is my favorite of the series to date. I have to say that the title story was a heart shredder - poor Miles.

Marjorie wrote: "...The Mountains of Mourning is a short story/novella. It can be bought in a variety of ways, as follows:..."

Thanks for this list, Maggie. I think I downloaded free versions of Mountains of Mourning from Baen ages ago. I actually enjoy MofM, because I come from a place where there are "hill folk" and I can sort of identify (certainly *not* with the Vor culture, but other aspects).

"The Borders of Infinity" novella (as opposed to the book) is a story that I really love, and I think you will, too, when we get to it.

I know, I'm a bit late to jump into discussions of this long running series. And I have to admit that I've got troubles following your discussion which seems to be more about other parts of the series than this particular first novel. Please, forgive me if I'm talking about my impressions only:

Up to now, I've only read one Bujold - her fantasy novel Curse of Chalion.

And I have to say that Shards of Honour doesn't stand up to that quality. I found it to be more shallow, sometimes jumpy and even illogical, having stupid persons helping conveniently in a Hollywood-like escape scene.

But overall, it is a very entertaining debut novel promising more.
If you're interested, you're welcomed reading my review

I loved Chalion as well Andreas. It's so different from the Vor series, it's hard to compare! I like them both for totally different reasons.

Chalion is based (loosely) upon historical events, and the Miles saga is (very loosely) autobiographical in some ways. Also, The Curse of Chalion was written by a smitten Bujold, I would say, around the time of the first Lord of the Rings movie. Cazaril is definitely a romantic character, for all his suffering!

I discovered these books in 2012. I read Cetaganda for a book club read. Loved it so much, I went back and used Audible and bought and listened to Shards of HonourBarrayarThe Warrior's ApprenticeThe Vor Game A&Cetaganda again -- all in January 2013! The audios are really good and Audible has the whole series.

Really need to catch back up with them again!