Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Some people like to dig into the background and resources of a book and author, others don't. For those who don't, ignore this thread.

Please do not post anything with direct plot spoilers that relate to parts of the book we have not yet gotten to.

If you post links to resources that have potential non-plot spoilers, please clearly identify them. For example (a made up example, not real):

This link discusses the reactions of the medical establishment to the publication of The Magic Mountain: www.samplelink.com This is just a sample link for illustrative purposes; do not click on it,.

General information about Mann's life, the history of the era, the locations in which the book takes place, and things of that sort that are of the enrichment but non-spoiler type are highly appropriate here.

If you're not sure, please err on the side of caution. You can always hold back resources until later in the reading where they won't constitute spoilers.

Also, remember that you can enclose items in spoiler links, but please use these sparingly because they are a temptation to some. If you don't know how to use spoiler links, put the following content (omitting the spaces) at the start of the spoiler: < spoiler >
and the following content (again omitting the spaces) after the end of the spoiler passage < /spoiler >

It works like this (you can safely click on this spoiler because it really isn't one)

(view spoiler)[ this is not a real spoiler (hide spoiler)]

Then after the spoiler is closed, you can keep on posting.

I hope this makes some sort of sense!

The Magic Mountain is based in part on Mann's personal experience at a tuberculosis sanatorium in Switzerland. In 1912, his wife was admitted to the Wald Sanatorium in Davos, where Thomas Mann visited her. It is said that some of the characters in the novel are based in part on people he met there.

High altitude sanatoriums were considered valuable for the treatment of tuberculosis. My own mother was diagnosed with TB in the early 1920s and spent most of a year in a sanatorium in the Rocky Mountains, far from her home in Philadelphia.

I read that Thomas Mann started this book as a short story ... *smile* ... and kept on talking of it as an enhanced / enlargened short story. It is maybe a good sign if a subject matter surprises its own author with more than he himself expected because it means that the author let the ideas grow and was open to be surprised by the developments his own beginnings showed after some time. This is close to what Plato thought of the poets: They do not really know what they do, the gods just give inspiration to them.

I spent a quiet sunday afternoon looking for some medical background information.

A minimal level of information is provided here: http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journal...

For a real start the Britannica is a good place (better structured than Wikipedia): http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/t...

Some additional information in this article: http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/content...

Wikipedia has a special lemma on the history of the disease: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_...

For more information on cultural aspects search Hektoen: http://www.hektoeninternational.org

Especially relevant for us is the sanatorium (still a pre-scientific phenomenon): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanatorium

For some understanding of life in a sanatorium read these excerpts from a diary of a anonymous patient: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/artic...

Here is the story of a better known patient, George Orwell: http://www.jameslindlibrary.org/illus...

Those reading German should certainly visit the site of the Medical Museum of Davos, containing several PDF's of interest:
http://www.medizinmuseum-davos.ch/

Everyman, the link in message one just takes me to an ad.

Laurele wrote: "Everyman, the link in message one just takes me to an ad."

That was just a sample link to show how to indicate possibles spoilers in links that are posted. I'm surprised that it actually goes anywhere at all, though I guess somebody decided that people might use the link "samplelink" for the same purpose I did and grabbed it.

Here are a couple of sites with 1912 fashions, more scarce on men's fashions and of alpine-suitable clothing than I would like, but they reminded that 1912 was also the year of the Titanic disaster:

http://sensibility.com/blog/blog/repr...

http://madameguillotine.org.uk/2011/0...



American day dress, 1912. Photo: Metropolitan Museum of Art.



1912 Catalog

"Again, these are fairly basic suits with high collars. It is very easy to get second-hand suits inexpensively, but you want to keep an eye out for ones with three or four buttons up the front rather than two, as the suits of this time period fastened up closer to the tie and collar than suits of the mid-20th century." (From first site above.)

Lily wrote: "Here are a couple of sites with 1912 fashions, more scarce on men's fashions and of alpine-suitable clothing than I would like, but they reminded that 1912 was also the year of the Titanic disaster..."

Oh, Lily! There went my morning. So many beautiful dresses to look at. So much beading, so many tassles, ruching, pleating, gathering, layering . . .

Mary Ronan wrote: "Oh, Lily! There went my morning. So many beautiful dresses to look at. So much beading, so many tassles, ruching, pleating, gathering, layering ..."

Sorry, Mary! ;-) My mind's eye went to a display when the Met acquired the costume collection from the Brooklyn Museum -- there was a wonderful section of clothing suitable for various sporting activities out of about this period of time. But those were mainly women's clothing, too. (There were also sections with the luxurious beading, ruching, et al.)

Essentially a repeat of Msg 30 from the Schedule thread re "The Making of The Magic Mountain" (an essay by Thomas Mann himself):

Jonathan wrote: "Looks like I have the 1958 published by Alfred A. Knopf, and translated by H. T. Lowe-Porter. It has "The Making of The Magic Mountain" at the end like Paul's '99 edition...."

That excellent article called to our attention by Paul and Jonathan (and others?) is available online at page 486 here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/31583019/Th...

The indication on the site is that not all documents continue to be available -- so be aware. Some readers might consider the essay to include spoilers, so also know that possibility if you choose to read it. Others of us will enjoy its insights into Mann's thoughts on subjects like his approach to time and use of leitmotif techniques borrowed from music, as well as relationships to his oeuvre, the era, and other writers.

Wendel wrote: "..."

Thanks for the links, Wendel. I checked out 2 or 3. Good background information on TB.

Eman suggested repeating this here from the Schedule thread (Msg 56):

For those with an hour to indulge, this train ride through Switzerland may be enjoyable (worthy of full screen):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APY-m9...

Based on a 1913 travel book, it reflects European train travel into Switzerland in the same time period as our book, just prior to WWI.

It was brought to my attention by a Goodreads colleague on another board.

Which of the Parsifal/Perceval... sources are others aware of as worthy background pieces for this reading? (It is not a legend I know well.)

I recently saw the HD performance of the Met's Parsifal by Wagner. It feels like fortunate back-drop to our TMM. That was reinforced to me by Zeke's early comment in the Schedule thread (@18):

"...This truly is a novel of growth. On page 47 I wrote a note to myself: 'If the next 650 pages don't mature this callow youth, I will shoot myself.'..."

http://www.metoperafamily.org/metoper... ("Cast sheet and Synopsis" may be of interest.)

The following is from Mann's essay "The Making of the Magic Mountain." IMO, it is not a spoiler, at least as soon as one has read the first couple of sections. But, others may not share that assessment, hence the treatment here.

(view spoiler)[
"...The Quester of the Grail legend, at the beginning of his wanderings, is often called a fool, a great fool, a guileless fool. That corresponds to the naïveté and simplicity of my hero. It is as though a dim awareness of the traditional had made me insist on this quality of his...."

(hide spoiler)]

We tend to think of TB as a disease from history and, indeed, it is pretty much eliminated in wealthy countries. I was surprised to learn that 33% of the world's population is infected. This is second only to HIV.

Here are several Biblical allusions to golden bowls. I think the one from Ecclesiastes is most likely to be relevant to MM, but all suggest the holy significances associated with these vessels. (Note, too, the entries from Revelation.)


To find the text in NRSV, go here:

http://www.devotions.net/bible/00bibl...

1 Chronicles 28.17:

and pure gold for the forks, the basins, and the cups; for the golden bowls and the weight of each; for the silver bowls and the weight of each;

Ecclesiastes 12.6:

before the silver cord is snapped,* and the golden bowl is broken, and the pitcher is broken at the fountain, and the wheel broken at the cistern,

1 Esdras 8.57:

and twenty golden bowls, and twelve bronze vessels of fine bronze that glittered like gold.

Revelation 5.8:

When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 15.7:

Then one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever;

(I recently became interested in these passages because Henry James's The Golden Bowl (1904) is high on my list for possible reads in 2013. Then I encounter the term here!)

These are in support of text on p.9 of the Woods translation. Some links for pictures of the Alps, as much from Davos perspective as my limited knowledge permitted:

Scaletta or Skaletta Glacier related:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/32652918
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dischma
http://www.summitpost.org/scalettahor...



Tinzerhorn

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/25663770 (includes photo above)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24891685...
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/4129231

I haven't found a photo for Piz Michel.

Material on pre- and post-war atmosphere in Germany:

Pre-war:

"The World of Yesterday", by Stefan Zweig:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Worl...
(An Austrian author but the atmosphere is the same)

Just read into the first pages of "The World of Yesterday":
http://books.google.de/books?id=YrJjc...

"Der Untertan" (="The subject"), by Heinrich Mann, brother of Thomas Mann:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Unte...
The typical subject was molded corresponding to the pattern represented by Kaiser Wilhelm II.



Personality of Kaiser Wilhelm II:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_...
He was "gifted, with a quick understanding, sometimes brilliant, with a taste for the modern,—technology, industry, science—but at the same time superficial, hasty, restless, unable to relax, without any deeper level of seriousness, without any desire for hard work or drive to see things through to the end, without any sense of sobriety, for balance and boundaries, or even for reality and real problems, uncontrollable and scarcely capable of learning from experience, desperate for applause and success,—as Bismarck said early on in his life, he wanted every day to be his birthday—romantic, sentimental and theatrical, unsure and arrogant, with an immeasurably exaggerated self-confidence and desire to show off, a juvenile cadet, who never took the tone of the officers’ mess out of his voice, and brashly wanted to play the part of the supreme warlord, full of panicky fear of a monotonous life without any diversions, and yet aimless, pathological in his hatred against his English mother."

Enthusiasm for the navy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flottenv...

Post-war:

Effect on German Society:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermat...

The MM was finished and published in the "Golden Era" of the Weimar Republic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_r...

Short video on reaching the "Golden Era":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18WlSb...

Video on everyday life in Gemany in the 1920s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ls8SP...

Great links, Thorwald. I look forward to spending more time with them when it rains, but right now the sun is shining and the water is totally calm and I'm going outdoors!

Oh, I had not seen this thread before. Looks like a lot of excellent supplemental information that I look forward to investigating further.
Everyman...oh, you live on an island...I envy that! By the water and such. Wonderful!

Sue wrote: "Everyman...oh, you live on an island...I envy that! By the water and such. Wonderful!
"

Yes, I do. And yes, it has wonderful aspects. But some not so wonderful, too. Sometimes I do miss the city with its museums, theater, recreational opportunities. And I would love not to have to pay $.70 per gallon more for gas than on the mainland, or be able to access the mainland for less than a two hour ferry trip plus $40 in ferry tolls.

But overall, one lives with the downsides and enjoys the upside. As everyone else does, I hope.

Zeke wrote: "We tend to think of TB as a disease from history and, indeed, it is pretty much eliminated in wealthy countries. I was surprised to learn that 33% of the world's population is infected. This is sec..."

That is an incredible number Zeke, but it is critical to differentiate between a latent versus an active infection. Besides, these numbers are almost impossible to assess since most of the infections are taking place in the developing world. Besides, it is even difficult to assess in the US even though the skin test seems prevalent. Still, it is definitely still a dangerous disease as it is gaining resistance towards the few available antibiotics we have in our arsenal.
In the US San Francisco has the highest incidence rate with 13.4/100,000 compared to the US rate of 3.4/100,000 (in 2012). The SF rate is likely linked to the high rate of HIV and the number of foreign born residents.
source 2012 Annual update at:
http://www.sftbc.org/#!reports-and-pu...

I wonder how the global reports came up with the 1/3 of the world population being infected (latent or active), but I notice that both Wikipedia and WHO have those numbers. Frightening indeed!

Not sure I would necessarily call this a "resource," but my favorite contemporary writer of historical fiction, Andrea Barrett, has a novel called "The Air We Breathe" which takes place at a sanatorium in the Adirondacks circa 1916. She was inspired by "The Magic Mountain," but here's what she says: "At first I imagined a kind of low-rent, democratic version of Thomas Mann's The Magic Mountain. As the setting was transposed to America, so the rich patients would be transposed to impoverished immigrants in a public sanatorium. As The Magic Mountain takes place just before the outbreak of World War I in Europe, so I thought this might be set in analagous time, 1916 and 1917, just before the American entry into the war. But the initial conception changed a great deal..." It's a good read, though nowhere near as weighty as Mann.

TB in art and much more: http://blauerheinrich.jimdo.com/tuber...

Wendel wrote: "TB in art and much more: http://blauerheinrich.jimdo.com/tuber..."

Wow. Thx.

Wendel wrote: "TB in art and much more: http://blauerheinrich.jimdo.com/tuber..."

Yes, good page not only on TB and art,
but on TB in general,
and as illustration for our book in particular.
Thank you!

Wendel wrote: "TB in art and much more: http://blauerheinrich.jimdo.com/tuber..."

Wonderful!!! Thanks Wendel!

Thanks, Wendel. Now I know what a 'Blue Peter' might look like.

“Poor creature,” Frau Stohr said.”He’ll soon be at his last gasp. He had to go out for a talk with his ‘Blue Peter’(78).

Wendel wrote: "TB in art and much more: http://blauerheinrich.jimdo.com/tuber..."

I am only seeing this in German. Is there a way to see it in English?

Everyman wrote: "Is there a way to see it in English?"

Sorry E'man. You can try Worldlingo or Google Translate, for what it's worth. But you have to copy-paste the text. The free version of Jimdo that is used does not display in frames.

Meanwhile I will thank the webmaster (m/f) on behalve of the group and forward your request.

The webmaster of the Blauerheinrich sent us a link to a collection of Davos pictures. Very nice if you like visual backgrounds:
http://www.tma.ethz.ch/assets/Uploads...

Wendel wrote: "The webmaster of the Blauerheinrich sent us a link to a collection of Davos pictures. Very nice if you like visual backgrounds:
http://www.tma.ethz.ch/assets/Uploads......"

Fab! Thx, Wendel. (For those interested in clothes of the period, there is a good shot on page 7. There are others near the end, but they seem more skiing and snow sports.)

Wendel wrote: "The webmaster of the Blauerheinrich sent us a link to a collection of Davos pictures. Very nice if you like visual backgrounds:
http://www.tma.ethz.ch/assets/Uploads......"

Wonderful stuff! I particularly wondered what the people were doing in the illustration on page 161 -- looking all hunched over in a line. The only indication was that this was an illustration of a sanatorium in (about?) 1900.

It seems clear that early in the 20th century the sanatorium business was big business in the Davos area. Some of these buildings are huge, especially for the times, and with the appointments of high class hotels.

With a dining room of only seven tables holding nine people each (the head seat in each table being reserved for the rotating doctors), that's a seating of only 63 patients at most. Even given that a number would be bedridden, it seems that our sanatorium might have been a relatively smaller one.

The illustration on page 174 seems exactly the kind of room that HC was in, balcony and all. After the luxury of the main rooms, the laboratories and exam rooms on pages 177 and 178 seem scarily primitive.

Oh -- and on page 176, isn't that Herr Albin second from the left? [g]

Since it is "an oasis for rest and relaxation," a resort--it's no wonder some people would want to stay there when their bodies are well rather than return to the real world of work and responsibilities.

Everyman wrote: "Wendel wrote: "The webmaster of the Blauerheinrich sent us a link to a collection of Davos pictures..."

p. 161: shows a school-sanatorium, I think I see some pupils lined up in a sports field
p. 164: the larger building is the Waldsanatorium, where Katia Mann was treated, the smaller one is the Villa am Stein where Mann stayed (Stevenson wrote Treaure Island during his residence in the Villa am Stein)
p. 176: the note - in handwriting - says: 'there still are happy people in the world'

The interior pictures from the Berghof show more comfort and style than those from other institutions. The Mann family was not known to economise. Can't say I find the place - and rest of Davos - very attractive though.

Translations to go with text from Wendel (see Week 2.2, Msg 18):

(view spoiler)[

The original:

'Sprechen Sie mir nicht von der ›Vergeistigung‹, die durch Krankheit hervorgebracht werden kann, um Gottes willen, tun Sie es nicht! Eine Seele ohne Körper ist so unmenschlich und entsetzlich, wie ein Körper ohne Seele, und übrigens ist das erstere die seltene Ausnahme und das zweite die Regel. In der Regel ist es der Körper, der überwuchert, der alle Wichtigkeit, alles Leben an sich reißt und sich aufs widerwärtigste emanzipiert. Ein Mensch, der als Kranker lebt, ist nur Körper, das ist das Widermenschliche und Erniedrigende, - er ist in den meisten Fällen nichts Besseres als ein Kadaver (96 words 508/604)

Porter translation:

Do not, for heaven’s sake, speak to me of the ennobling effects of physical suffering! A soul without a body is as inhuman and horrible as a body without a soul—though the latter is the rule and the former the exception. It is the body, as a rule, which flourishes exceedingly, which draws everything to itself, which usurps the predominant place and lives repulsively emancipated from the soul. A human being who is first of all an invalid is all body; therein lies his inhumanity and his debasement. In most cases he is little better than a carcass—' (99 words, 453/550)

Woods translation: p. 117

Do not speak to me of some ‘spiritual redemption’ that may result from illness – for God’s sake, do not speak of it. A soul without a body is as inhuman and horrible as a body without a soul – whereby the first is the rare exception and the latter the rule. Normally it is the body that grows unchecked, usurping all importance, all life to itself, emancipating itself in the most loathsome fashion. A human being who lives as an invalid is only a body, and that is the most inhuman of debasements – in most cases he is no better than a cadaver…” (102 words, 440/546)

Machine Translation:

Don't talk me by the ›Vergeistigung‹ can be produced by disease, for God's sake, don't do it! A soul without a body is so inhumane and appalling, like a body without a soul, and by the way this is the former the rare exception and the second rule. Usually, it is the body that overgrown, which rips all importance of all life and is on the most emancipated. A man who lives as a sick person, is only body, thats the Antihuman and degrading, he is nothing better than a cadaver in most cases (95 words, 398/493)

The original (repeated):

'Sprechen Sie mir nicht von der ›Vergeistigung‹, die durch Krankheit hervorgebracht werden kann, um Gottes willen, tun Sie es nicht! Eine Seele ohne Körper ist so unmenschlich und entsetzlich, wie ein Körper ohne Seele, und übrigens ist das erstere die seltene Ausnahme und das zweite die Regel. In der Regel ist es der Körper, der überwuchert, der alle Wichtigkeit, alles Leben an sich reißt und sich aufs widerwärtigste emanzipiert. Ein Mensch, der als Kranker lebt, ist nur Körper, das ist das Widermenschliche und Erniedrigende, - er ist in den meisten Fällen nichts Besseres als ein Kadaver (96 words 508/604)

The word count is from WORD; the character counts follow.

(hide spoiler)]

Here are Wendel's comments from msg 57, so one can have the conversation adjacent:

(view spoiler)[
message 57: by Wendel 4/9/2013

Wendel: "Lily wrote@35: "Translations to go with text from Wendel (see Week 2.2, Msg 18)..."

Some additional observations:
- I said 'wordcount', but in fact I counted only lines. From Lily's work we now know that the number of words in the original is not higher. What is different, is the length of the words used. The German ones are much longer.
- Vergeistigung - spiritualisation: a word without clear meaning (Mann uses apostrophes) - in translation it became 'ennobling effects' or 'spiritual redemption.'
- und übrigens - and by the way: the literal translation was felt inappropriate by both translators, it ended up as 'though' or 'whereby'
- In der Regel - as a rule: Woods opts for 'normally'
- In the long sentence opening with 'In der Regel' we are led to a highpoint, using many roling r's and strong gutturals: that is what made me think of 'virile': überwuchert wichtigkeit reißt widerwärtigste
- The final sentence is just one thundering kettle drum roll. It shows what Mann's German is capable of. It is also a bit spooky, if I may say so.

(hide spoiler)]

One could probably expound an entire essay of some length on this passage alone.

Many great visuals. I esp liked the room with the Door to the balcony open. Made me think I could almost imagine HC there washing up and using the lavendar scent.

Thank you.

Did you notice the cart made out of a barrel on page 189? Ingenious!

Encountered a note that suggested an unprovable possibility that Hans Castorp's last name was created from the two twins of Gemini: Castor and Pollux.

Probably irrelevant background: "When Castor was killed, Pollux asked Zeus to let him share his own immortality with his twin to keep them together, and they were transformed into the constellation Gemini. The pair was regarded as the patrons of sailors...."

Don't believe any of these are available online, but some may be interested to know this collection of material on Mann exists here:

http://findingaids.princeton.edu/coll...

Similarly, here (have not checked nature of availability -- scroll down for entry on Mann holdings.)

http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/coll...

Yet another:
http://special.lib.uci.edu/collection...

at 38 Lily wrote: "Encountered a note that suggested an unprovable possibility that Hans Castorp's last name was created from the two twins of Gemini: Castor and Pollux.

Probably irrelevant background: "When Castor..."

I find that rather intriguing.

Andrea Weiss
In the Shadow of the Magic Mountain: The Erika and Klaus Mann Story

An excerpt here: http://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicag...

I found this interesting, but not sure that I particularly recommend it as background reading for MM, at least prior to completing reading MM. Excerpt provides information on Mann, his wife, and the two oldest children of their six.

Thomas Mann:
Life as a Work of Art. A Biography
Hermann Kurzke
Translated by Leslie Willson

A review of this biography is here (it is the same as the one on goodreads, or at least very close):

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/735...

Thomas Mann: Life as a Work of Art: A Biography

This is primarily for Adelle -- relative to an earlier discussion on Mann and Freud. It is an excerpt from an article by Thomas Hollweck (2006) for the Eric Voegelin Institute. I found it when exploring the .edu domain after expressing my questions last night on where Mann fits in the stream of modern thought. The entire article is interesting from that perspective, but if you prefer to leave the author's note until last, you may want to elect the same with this. (For me, articles such as this help me probe the text as I read, but we all do these things differently.)

"Thomas Mann's ‘Work on Myth’: The Uses of the Past"

http://www.lsu.edu/artsci/groups/voeg...

Clip on Mann and Freud (not a spoiler for our story):

(view spoiler)[

"...And, last but not least, Thomas Mann read Freud, whose Gesammelte Schriften (1928) he owned and in which he read extensively, especially 'Beyond the Pleasure Principle' and 'Totem and Taboo.' It is the task of the philologist to show how Mann internalized some of Freud's ideas, but it is a well known fact that he read Freud very much with regard to his own ongoing project, as the lecture 'Freud and the Future' (1936), written for the occasion of Freud's eightieth birthday, makes abundantly clear. Mann's ability of making the thoughts of others his own, without 'buying into' any doctrinal system, is precisely what enabled him to understand the nature of myth and to be an author who could transform the ideas and thoughts of others into the story that transcended their supposed individual originality...."

(hide spoiler)]

I have read neither, but I wonder if anyone who has read either Slozhenitzyn's Cancer Ward or Susan Sontag's Illness as Metaphor? If so, it might be interesting to hear about correspondences to issues and themes in Magic Mountain.

Our own generation's experience with the AIDs crisis certainly reinforces the thought that how different diseases are viewed by a culture tells us a lot about the culture--though very little objectively about the disease.

Adelle wrote: "at 38 Lily wrote: "Encountered a note that suggested an unprovable possibility that Hans Castorp's last name was created from the two twins of Gemini: Castor and Pollux..."

"I find that rather intriguing..."

Kind of fun, isn't it? I can really imagine Mann's mind running that way -- with Castor being the mortal one of the twins, Pollux the immortal god, and even attempting to weigh out the proportions in making up the name....!

A good myth?, whether or not the factual "truth"?

Lily wrote: "Andrea Weiss
In the Shadow of the Magic Mountain: The Erika and Klaus Mann Story"

There is also a long on-line review (if one may call it that) by Colm Tóibín:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v30/n21/colm-toi...

Weiss/Tóibín describes how difficult it was for Mann to decide on his attitude towards fascism in the years 1933-1936. He did no want to sanction it by going back to Germany, but neither was he ready for a clean break. Agonising in his secret diary (secret too for his Jewish wife) that surely anti-semitism was not only bad. In the end it was his family that forced him to save his soul.

That is interesting because we can (and I do) read the MM as a testimonial of Mann's struggle with (parts of) his cultural tradition. It is clear that this struggle was by no means over when the MM was finished. I'm afraid it is not over even now, especially not in formerly communist Eastern-Central Europe.

More off-topic is another aspect of Tóibín article that struck me. That winning the war did not bring the Mann family's exile to an end. They were not exactly popular back home (Erika warned her father that he might get killed there). And by 1950 it also became clear that they were not welcome anymore in the USA, just entering one of its intermittant phases of confusion (this one bearing the name of senator Joseph R. McCarty).

Wendel wrote: "There is also a long on-line review (if one may call it that) by Colm Tóibín....."

Thx. Also perused the article by Michael Woods on Mann, accessible from the same page.

At 46 Wendel wrote: "Lily wrote: "Andrea Weiss
In the Shadow of the Magic Mountain: The Erika and Klaus Mann Story"

There is also a long on-line review (if one may call it that) by Colm Tóibín:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v3..."



Many thanks. I enjoyed reading that. I'll concede that "like" is the wrong word: I liked the supposed farewell from Thomas Mann to his son Klaus. It did seem something a literary man might have said. I thought it could have been amusing had the father son had a healthy, happy, joking-back-and-forth relationship. Such, apparently, was not the case.

Lily wrote: "This is primarily for Adelle -- relative to an earlier discussion on Mann and Freud. It is an excerpt from an article by Thomas Hollweck (2006) for the Eric Voegelin Institute. I found it when exp..."

Thanks, Lily. Once I get about two- thirds thru MM, I will check those out. Looking forward to it.

Adelle wrote: "
Thanks, Lily. Once I get about two- thirds thru MM, I will check those out. Looking forward to it. ..."

Adelle, the hidden clip on Freud @43 is reasonably short and won't spoil reading -- it just responds to our discussion about Freud vs Jung influences on Mann -- without really answering questions, just providing additional insight. It reinforces that Mann studied Freud fairly carefully, without necessarily buying into all his theories.