r/books discussion

Dune is a 1965 science fiction novel by Frank Herbert. It won the Hugo Award in 1966, and the inaugural Nebula Award for Best Novel. Dune is frequently cited as the world's best-selling science fiction novel and is the start of the Dune saga.

Set in the far future amidst a feudal interstellar society in which noble houses, in control of individual planets, owe allegiance to the imperial House Corrino, Dune tells the story of young Paul Atreides, the heir apparent to Duke Leto Atreides as his family accepts control of the desert planet Arrakis, the only source of the "spice" melange. Melange is the most important and valuable substance in the universe, increasing Arrakis's value as a fief. The story explores the multi-layered interactions of politics, religion, ecology, technology, and human emotion, as the forces of the empire confront each other in a struggle for the control of Arrakis and its "spice". - Wikipedia

Reading Battle Plan:
April 1-10, 2013 - Book I
April 11-20, 2013 - Book II
April 21-30, 2013 - Book III

References
Terminology of the Imperium I (Dune glossary)
Terminology of the Imperium II (fan-compiled)
Printable Terminology of the Imperium I



Ashley, Eric, Annie, Darliza, Frank, Jennifer,
Kate, April

Ashley wrote in the Dune Request thread:

"Should we have some pre-discussion in the Dune discussion thread? Why do you want to read this book? What kind of expectations do you have? That kind of stuff?"

My first impression of Dune was that I heard it was a difficult but rewarding read. It was one of those books that made up part of the canon, the best of the best for sci-fi so obviously I was curious. The cover itself didn't much impress me. Or not at least the cover I have.

I was never interested in Dune until a few weeks ago when I read about Dune inspiring many other works; books, movies, music, art- the whole shebang. Most importantly, it is rumored to have inspired Hayao Miyazaki's Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind 1 manga, which I'm in love with.

Eric wrote: "Ahh! Hold on! Lemme add my book face!!

Am I the only kindle face here? Blahhh."

Hi, Eric! Welcome to the Book Support group for Dune! Kindle faces (or phone faces, laptop faces?) are welcome! :)

BTW GUYS, I'll be off to holiday today 3/28/13 and won't be back til the 31st. :) Enjoy the Easter holidays!

@Dariza, have a good holiday! Take some pics for us for when you get back!

I've never read Dune, but I reckon I'll give it a go. I've always fallen on the fantasy side of the speculative-fiction continuum, but I enjoy sci-fi films and looking up at the stars.

I particularly look forward to reading along with a group. I am not above nerdly pursuits like character rankings and hypothetical film (re)casts.

We look forward to your return, Darliza!

@David I've always been more on the fantasy side too, it should be interesting to try out something new with one of the most important sci-fi stories ever.

I am with both of you-- fantasy is usually more of my thing. Like I said in the Request thread, I think I picked up Dune in high school and set it aside after a few pages. It does seem from the description, though, that this might have a plot similar to a fantasy book, no? Unless I am mistaken, it sounds like it is more about characters and politics of an alien world rather than about scientific endeavors like, say, Ender's Game. It just happens to take place in outer space. I could be off.
I love the film casting speculations, but I never know actors' names, so I just sit there thinking "That one guy! With the red hair! He was in that movie that I liked! Shit."

Has anyone seen the Dune movie, Dune Movie or the tv series? Dune TV series

Annie wrote: "Has anyone seen the Dune movie, Dune Movie or the tv series? Dune TV series"

I didn't even know these existed until this thread. I feel like they're probably pretty dated now but who knows!

I watched the 1984 movie and was a bit amuse. Sting, Patrick Stewart, and Max von Sydow were a few of the stars, and it was , hmm. The movie had flavor. Hard to describe, it wasn't all bad, but it was no masterpiece either.

Apparently the tv adaption did great though? I might have to check that out.

Hi, guys! April is upon us. I was scanning the appendices of my copy and I saw a "Terminology of the Imperium" which holds many alien terms which might prove crucial to immersing ourselves in the story.

Here's an online version that's safe (i.e. no spoilers).

Thanks for reading this with me. :) How do you like it so far?

Darliza wrote: "Hi, guys! April is upon us. I was scanning the appendices of my copy and I saw a "Terminology of the Imperium" which holds many alien terms which might prove crucial to immersing ourselves in the s..."

Oh thank you so much for that! My ereader version doesn't have chapters so I'm not sure exactly how far I am in that respect, but I'm on page 52. I had no idea what this book was going to be about and I'm still not *completely* sure but I really like it. I do get a tad bit confused when they go into tons of different names of peoples and countries all at once when things are getting political.

@Darliza, sweet! That's a good link, maybe you should post it in its own thread, mark at the top so that it's more visible and everyone is aware of it?

You're welcome! I cleaned up the top post a bit, made a collage of the bookfaces and added the references portion.

@Annie: I'm a bit hesitant about creating a different thread for references as I don't wish to clutter the boards too much. Let me know if adding the references in this thread doesn't work. :)

Eric wrote: "Dune is... weird for me. I find myself enjoying it, but enjoying it like I got assigned a decent book for summer reading. Also, without the guide (since I was not near any good computers today), it..."

I did like A Clockwork Orange a lot even with all the NADSAT language so I'm sticking it out for Dune this time. I have not made a lot of progress though. =/ Forgoing another night of pub trivia for Dune tonight.

Maybe it's because I just read a difficult series that the language isn't getting to me too bad for Dune. The only trouble I'm having is remembering the politics, names and such.

I also just watched all six Star Wars films over the past week for the first time and spending all that time on Tatooine has given me a decent idea of what Dune is like.

Ah! thank you for the terminology - I am going to have to print that out and whip it out when I am reading on the train haha

Hi everyone, I just started Dune and will join in the discussion when I get further than the 23 pages I have so far!
Megan

Charlotte wrote: "Ah! thank you for the terminology - I am going to have to print that out and whip it out when I am reading on the train haha"

I changed the link to a better Terminology page. It includes words that weren't on the wiki page I first linked. I'm trying to compile a printable format (PDF). :)

EDIT: I provided two links. lol
EDIT2: PRINTABLE Terminology of the Imperium now available. Please refer to top post. :)

@Darliza, thanks again, the terminolgy sheets will be a greathelp!

@Eric Don't feel bad! I hadn't seen them before last week either! (The original three are def worth a watch tho if you have to choose one trilogy over the other.) I really do feel like Star Wars could have gotten infuence from Dune annnnnnd upon googling: it's a thing. Star Wars Origins- Dune. So it's official, Lucas says that he got inspiration from Dune.

Also, what is "spice" in Dune? It's the most important and valuable commodity but what IS it? Is it, like, an actual spice such as saffron or thyme? Is it like gold- purely monetary, possibly decorative? Maybe they say what it is later and I just haven't gotten to it yet.

Was anyone else blown by the Litany Against Fear Paul recited during the test with the old woman? That was really cool.

I love badass kids. lol

EDIT: Not sure if this qualifies as a spoiler.

@Eric @Ashley Spice is a psychoactive drug that confers enhanced powers of observation on the user and is considered the most valuable substance in the "universe" of Dune. The reason why the Guild has a monopoly on space travel is that their navigators have to take Spice to see "safe paths" through spacetime.

Anyone have any favorite characters yet? Or first impressions?

I'm not super far yet (need to get caught up this weekend) but I really like the Fremen people. They're so mysterious and I look forward to learning more about them.

I'm not far along yet either, but I think it's mostly because the book starts off a bit slowly while the characters and the political situation are being set up. It's opening a bit now that the Atreides are in Arrakis.

I love the whole Bene Gesserit - the powerful female force is intriguing.

Favorite quote so far:

BTW, I'm going off to another 4-day holiday this weekend and won't be back 'til the 9th. I'll be bringing Dune with me this time. :) Can't wait to get past Book I and into the juicier parts.

Great quote! I agree that the B.G. is really cool. Is it safe to assume that Paul is going to be the one-and-only male truth-seer?

We look forward to your return, Darliza, have a good trip!

Dune is often called the "Lord of the Rings" of Science Fiction. Do you agree so far? Have you noticed parallels between the two works?

Ashley wrote: "Is it safe to assume that Paul is going to be the one-and-only male truth-seer?
We look forward to your return, Darliza, have a good trip!"

Yeah, I think it's safe to assume at this point that Paul Atreides IS the Kwisatz Haderach. What a term though. It's like learning German.

And thanks, Ashley! I'm hoping to get some reading in between walking under TERRIBLE summer heat here in my country.

Is anyone else having a hard time connecting to or caring about the characters? Everything is so political and written so clinically that I feel like I have to dig really hard to get to any personality or emotion. I'm halfway through book 3 now, and it's starting to get better, but I think that's because I've been following the characters through so much. I think my favorite character in the first book was Piter, which isn't saying much.

The worlds is really well built and detailed. It feels like I'm a tourist, or like I'm watching one of those detached nature documentaries that observes a recently contacted culture as if they were ants.

Danielle wrote: "Is anyone else having a hard time connecting to or caring about the characters? Everything is so political and written so clinically that I feel like I have to dig really hard to get to any persona..."

I'm not nearly as far as you but I've heard of this before. The author focuses so much on creating this great big, vast universe that the actual story ends up lacking character.

Danielle wrote: "Is anyone else having a hard time connecting to or caring about the characters? Everything is so political and written so clinically that I feel like I have to dig really hard to get to any persona..."

I'm only a few chapters in, so I can't yet honestly gauge the personality and destiny of its characters, but I will say that I find many of them have a similar voice (e.g. when they show anger, they show anger in the same way).

Might be on account of the omniscient POV (that jumps in and out of characters minds), but I am reminded of the first twenty minutes of The Phantom Menace, where the characters hilariously spout out their expositional intentions to set up the events for the rest of the movie.

David wrote: "Danielle wrote: "Is anyone else having a hard time connecting to or caring about the characters? Everything is so political and written so clinically that I feel like I have to dig really hard to g..."

Yeah, I noticed the similar voices too, and I don't think the omniscient POV helps. That's why my favorite character was Piter - I thought he differed the most. There are some events that should be really emotional, especially because the narrator can read everyone's mind, and they fell flat for me. Like when Leto confides in Paul about (view spoiler)[how he would sooner distrust himself than Jessica, and tells Paul to explain this to Jessica if he dies, along with his regrets about not marrying her (hide spoiler)]. This is incredibly tragic, but it's laid out so factually and the characters move on so quickly and nonchalantly that I didn't even realize the extent of what had happened until I thought about it again later.

I've also been disappointed by how black and white the characters are so far. By the end of the first book, the only characters that aren't easily defined as good or bad are the (view spoiler)[Bene Gesserits and Fremen, but at that point we haven't really learned anything about them or their motives (hide spoiler)]. I really hope they go into the Atreides more, because so far the "Atreides are good, Harkonnen are bad" mentality is not that interesting, and for such a political book I don't really buy it.

Moar sandworms!!!

Hey, all, I just got back from a conference in Orlando where I had a good amount of time to read. I am into Book 2 now.

I see a lot of mention in this thread about characters, and that was my exact feeling as well. I feel no connection to the characters, and I consider character development to be the most important thing in hooking me into a book. Especially with Paul-- he very suddenly undergoes a character change/epiphane (I don't think this is a spoiler), but rather than really grow, he just sort of swifly morphs in his viewpoint. It is too sudden.
As was said previously, there are some things that should be heart-wrenching that instead fall flat becasue the characters are off. The most we get to see into the character's minds is the sporadic italics which show what a different character is thinking, but these seem a little off since they pop in and out of the omniscient narrator style.

I am going to think of Tattoine every time I pick up Dune now-- I love it! Now, where are the droids....?

Does anyone else feel like we don't see everyone's motivations clearly enough? Certain characters' motivations are clear, but then we have plenty of others whose hatred or loyalty is a little hard to understand (I won't say more than that for fear of spoilers).

All in all I am enjoying the book (and it is going much quicker than I expected), but I fail to see what makes it the definitive Science Fiction work. There is vast imagination at play, and the scope is impressive, but there is just too much lacking for me to say it is a masterpiece.

Other readers' thoughts?

P.S. I googled Fremen to see what other people imagine them to look like and found some interesting things!
This one just has some really vivid blue eyes, and I think I like that alteration. It makes them identifiable yet still alien. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c39...
This eyeball tottoing image (WTF??) might show what an all blue eye would look like. http://blogs.amctv.com/scifi-scanner/...

What I could relate to in Dune was the planet itself.

Arrakis. A desert. Being from a desert place myself and living there for so many years, I could understand the almost worship of water, and the anger that people had at the palms and other foreign plants being brought in. The hot winds just made me feel at home. Anyone else like the setting or would have prefer it to be on another planet where the sci-fi elements of it would be much more noticeable as opposed to the almost backwater in some aspects by the desert people and the way they operate due to the heat and sands?

Jennifer wrote: "Hey, all, I just got back from a conference in Orlando where I had a good amount of time to read. I am into Book 2 now.

I see a lot of mention in this thread about characters, and that was my exa..."

I'm also hoping for more character motivations. So far some of it seems to be just good vs evil. I hope they explain the Bene Gesserits more. They have to have gained a ton of power at some point in the past to be able to influence so many societies so completely.

I was surprised that a book considered to be solidly science fiction would focus so much on mysticism, prophesies, and myths. I always thought of these as fantasy themes more than science fiction. In other science fiction stories I've read or watched, even if the main characters believe in magic, the mechanism ends up being sufficiently advanced technology. I always thought this was supposed to be the difference between them - fantasy stays with magic, and science fiction explains the science behind it. I guess this could still be the case with the Kwisatz Haderach, but so far it's only been explained with prophesy.

Nice comment, Danielle. As the story moves on I feel like it's more of a science fantasy than pure science fiction.

I love this discussion, you all are making some really great points. What do you think about the quote I just came across: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -Arthur C. Clarke ?

I like that one a lot! It is all a matter of perspective, also. So many advancements in science and technology we take for granted today, but anyone from 100 or even with some things 50 years ago would seem like magic.
I think the difference is in how we treat it. We take scientific advancements for granted almost, and we understand (at least on some level) where they come from. Religion and mysticism carries with it an understanding that nothing can fully be understood. It is expected that you have faith and don't ask questions.

I found it interesting that Herbert used words like jihad rather than creating a new word using the root, as fantasy authors are sometimes wont to do. With all of the new vocabulary he created, it was a little jarring to see some of those Middle Eastern/Arabic words applied. IMO it is more enjoyable when the connections to actual religions/cultures is more subtle. That way I get to feel smart when I understand the references ;)

I am really curious to hear others' take on the Biblical references (e.g. "pillar of sand by day and a pillar of fire by night" or the whole Messiah idea)...

@ Jennifer, I too was jarred when I saw 'jihad' - I am reading on an e book so I even went through and made sure it wasn't a spelling mistake. Also, all of a sudden I am on Book II. I am struggling with Paul's character also, swinging from sullen teenage boy to sudden messiah, without too much reasoning in between.

I finished the book today, and I was pretty disappointed. I didn't realize what a big deal this book is. Here are the reviews from Wikipedia:

Reviews of the novel have been largely positive, and Dune is considered by some critics to be the best science fiction book ever written... It was called "One of the monuments of modern science fiction" by the Chicago Tribune, while the Washington Post described it as "A portrayal of an alien society more complete and deeply detailed than any other author in the field has managed ... a story absorbing equally for its action and philosophical vistas ... An astonishing science fiction phenomenon."

I enjoyed the world that was set up, and I was really intrigued by the Bene Gesserits and the politics. Unfortunately the plot was pretty boring and predictable, and the characters were poorly developed and bland. At the end of the book there were tons of plot threads left open that I really wish the author would have gone into. I know there are other books in the series, but it's this book that is supposed to be the best, not the sequels.

Paul's character development was really strange in book 2. As Charlotte wrote, he just keeps switching personality. This gets worse once he meets up with his love interest. (view spoiler)[They're supposed to fall in love, but the author kind of leaves that out. Paul just remembers that he foresaw her at the beginning of the book, and then all the sudden he's an adult with a son. Just pages before that, he was struggling with killing Jamis and having the responsibility of his widow and her children. This got even worse during the war when (view spoiler)[his son dies and he hardly notices. He just completes the war, taking his cousin as his "wife" while he and Chani shrug off the death with expectations of more children (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

Did Alia remind anyone else of (view spoiler)[Bella's creepy daughter in twilight? She even has the exact same power to project her experiences. Alia's character felt really forced to me, especially the scene where she explains her birth to Harah, and later when she negotiated with the Arakeen at age 4. I was really hoping they would get into exactly what the Reverend Mothers were and how they got their powers, but nothing was explained except vague mentions to social Darwinism. Apparently their powers are to remember their ancestor's lives and remove poison from water, while Paul has the special ability of being able to see the future. (hide spoiler)]

I'm glad I read it, I like reading books that are supposed to be definitive, even though I feel like they're often overrated.

Eric wrote: "So far I feel this story is revered more for its political structure, backdrop and for being a genuine sci-fi novel in the 60's. Thoughts? "

I'm nowhere near the end yet but I think Dune is a monumental piece of writing. The world-building here has influenced so many epic-scale SF and fantasy series to follow, and for a book that's written in 1965, it doesn't feel dated at all. I've been reading a lot of science fiction and sadly, there are more trash than gold and Dune here proves that SF can have a written style that's accessible yet literary, challenging yet fun.

Darliza wrote: "Eric wrote: "So far I feel this story is revered more for its political structure, backdrop and for being a genuine sci-fi novel in the 60's. Thoughts? "

I'm nowhere near the end yet but I think D..."

Good point on the book not being dated. I didn't really think about it, but that is quite a feat. That might be in part due to the fact that computers are not in the text?

I've stopped reading, sorry guys to let the team down, but it is beginning to drag, and non-scifi me is such a disbeliever!
I will keep subscribed and definitely keen to do this again. :)

Anyone have thoughts yet on what the whole human/non-human deal? I'm on page 329 in my version, well into part two, and I still don't understand. Am I missing something, or does this get revealed later?

Also, I just came across the statement "the things we do in the name of humanity", and it immediately brought to mind jaime's famous phrase about love in A Game of Thrones.

Am I the only one who enjoyed Dune?

But then again, I read like a child who is listening to a children's story.

Jennifer wrote: "Anyone have thoughts yet on what the whole human/non-human deal? I'm on page 329 in my version, well into part two, and I still don't understand. Am I missing something, or does this get revealed l..."

I'm not that far but I have been wondering the same thing about the human/non-human thing. Are Mentats human?

More human than human? Oh jeez haha.

I googled it so that we could have a decisive answer and Wiki says "A Mentat is a profession or discipline in Frank Herbert's fictional Dune universe. Mentats are humans trained to mimic computers: human minds developed to staggering heights of cognitive and analytical ability."