Classics Without All the Class discussion

Would you rather be an Alpha+ with a good job and know that your society is brainwashed, or be a beta-, have an awful job but be completely unaware of how messed up the situation is?

Or is there a different status you would rather be? A gamma?

I'm hiding my answer as it may contain spoilers. (view spoiler)[I think I'd rather be an Alpha+ and then move to a relocation island. Hopefully I'd be given that option and not have to go through adult re-programming... (hide spoiler)]

Well, Angie, your phrasing of the question shows a definite bias - "how messed up the situation is" that the alpha plusses of the society surely would disagree with. They would point out the continual pleasure and enjoyment experienced by almost everyone, and the stability of the New World (the absence of wars that have plagued our society causing death, destruction and untold human misery for the entire span of recorded human history) and conclude they have done an outstanding job of organizing the perfect society.

But to answer the question you have asked, we all have a knowledge of this society that only the alphas possess. I think very few of us - and I am not one of those few - would voluntarily choose to become less than we are in order to live in pleasurable ignorance.

I disagree. I think there are plenty people, who even choose today, to live in ignorance of what their governments do to and for each of them. I am not one of those people. However, I see why some would chiose to in this dystopian society. Living without the knowledge that you are being brainwashed to love the things you claim to love IS truly messed up, and I think only a few would want that.

Grandpa Joe wrote: "Well, Angie, your phrasing of the question shows a definite bias - "how messed up the situation is" that the alpha plusses of the society surely would disagree with. They would point out the conti..."

And, of course my question shows bias, for their governmental system is very "messed up." I don't think Aldous Huxley was trying to set up the "utopia" as anything other than that. He certainly didn't hope we'd end the novel thinking, "Hm...I can see why people would want this society..."

Angie wrote: "I disagree. I think there are plenty people, who even choose today, to live in ignorance of what their governments do to and for each of them. I am not one of those people. However, I see why some ..."

So, my questions still stands, would you rather KNOW that your government is manipulating you into believing that you should have the job you have, gave you shock therapy as a baby, conditioned you to believe that your body belongs to everyone but yourself, and made you believe that being a parent is deplorable? Or, would rather just not know, and live happily because of it?

I would rather be an alpha. I wouldn't care about what the government is controlling, because as an alpha I would be receiving all the benefits.

Angie, I agree with you.

As a second choice, I would go with Epsilon-Moron so that I would be completely unaware of the lack of control of my life.

This is indirectly relevant to Angie's question. Some years ago, my mother passed away from Alzheimer's. As Alzheimer's stole her memory she became more like the Epsilons (see Heather - message 8) in terms of what she no longer knew.

One day, Mom mistook an unrelated visitor for her long-deceased father. Dad explained to Mom that her father was dead. That was a mistake. It produced a fresh bout of grief in my mother who reacted to the news that her father was dead as though she were hearing it for the first time. But before the onset of Alzheimer's, she had known for decades that her father was deceased.

So we did not make that mistake again. Basically, we decided that it was better for Mom not to be given knowledge that would only make her unhappy and that could not possibly do her any good.

Perhaps that's a little bit like making a decision on behalf of an Epsilon to allow them to live in ignorance of their shock therapy and early childhood conditioning - knowledge that could not do them any good and that might disturb their happy equilibrium. Of course, that's different from choosing to put yourself in that position when you have the option of doing otherwise.

Grandpa Joe- I'm sorry to hear about your mother. Alzheimer's is a very sad sickness. That brings to mind the movie 50 First Dates, where a young woman suffers a brain injury and is unable to form new memories. Her family decides it is easiest to relive the last day she remembers over and over again, until a young man falls in love with her. The young man then has to make her fall in love with him every day.

In your situation, it definitely was better for your mother not to have to relive traumatic life events, especially since Alzheimer's only progresses. It truly is a terrible disease.

I agree for the Epsilon-Morons. The Alpha's at least could understand their choice. But I wonder if the Epsilon's would be able to comprehend what they have been robbed?

I'm not sure I'd want to be an alpha, beta or anything else. The only real benefit I see an alpha has over an epsilon (or any other) is that they got more (perceived)perks and maybe more important jobs.

As for the argument that an alpha understood the government more than an epsilonor understood what they are missing out on - I'm not so sure.. (view spoiler)[ We just have to take not of the feeling of disgst she felt in the 'savage' complex, how dirty she found things etc. Even with John and Linda, we can see by the things Linda had taught him, that she (even as an alpha) had no understanding about anything outside of her specific role (hide spoiler)]
So overall,
I think I'd prefer to be a savage.

Heather wrote: "Grandpa Joe- I'm sorry to hear about your mother. Alzheimer's is a very sad sickness. That brings to mind the movie 50 First Dates, where a young woman suffers a brain injury and is unable to form ..."

Thanks, Heather (message 10). My Dad was younger than Mom and so able to care for Mom at home for a long time. Mom was in an Alzheimer's unit for only 2 years and then Dad visited her every day. So Mom had the best life possible during her illness.

Liza wrote: "I'm not sure I'd want to be an alpha, beta or anything else. The only real benefit I see an alpha has over an epsilon (or any other) is that they got more (perceived)perks and maybe more important ..."

I have to agree with you Liza. On some level even the alphas were being kept in the dark. I would not want to be an alpha and be aware on some level that your society is messed up, but I guess you could always take more soma to forget. Maybe being a gamma would be best and then you could live in happy ignorance.

Given a choice I believe I would want to be a savage living on the reservation. I want to feel life. John sums up this feeling when he is having his conversation with the controller near the end of the book. He states, "But I don't want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want sin."

Angie wrote: "I'm hiding my answer as it may contain spoilers. [spoilers removed]"

I like this option. I am still going back and forth on having the knowledge that the society is controlled or being so happy I don't care. While it would be painful, I think I would rather have the knowledge. It's not the happiest of options, but I would have a sense of freedom. They can control certain things but they cannot control how one's brain processes things. In a sense, it will make me feel as though I had won.

I would like the option of moving to an island as well. That would be icing on the cake.

I have now finished the book, and was more appalled by the New World society the farther I read - for reasons I won't state here since some viewers of this thread may still be reading. Suffice it to say that the goals or values of the New World's governing elite, although efficiently achieved, are achieved at great cost by the total sacrifice of other values that many (most) of us would never be willing to sacrifice.

Is the situation "messed up?" (Angie, message 1). Well, in my opinion, the New World's determination of what's important and what's not is messed up, but the New World society functions entirely too well and too precisely as intended for me to describe the workings of society as "messed up."

Angie, I have read your hidden spoiler answer (message 2) to the question you posed. I'm curious to ask you if your choice of being an alpha+ or a beta- (or gamma) might be affected if you knew you would have a different number of companions under each of these two options? As you know, there was at least one person in the New World who desired solitude (but had trouble achieving it) but other persons need human companionship and would not do well at all if they had no one to talk to. For me, that factor would not change anything. I'd choose to be an alpha+ whether the circumstances regarding that choice meant I would have many companions or be entirely alone.

Grandpa Joe wrote: "I have now finished the book, and was more appalled by the New World society the farther I read - for reasons I won't state here since some viewers of this thread may still be reading. Suffice it ..."

That is an interesting question, especially if you think about the two characters, Bernard and Helmholtz. Helmholtz choose isolation, whereas Bernard chooses a more warm and social atmosphere. I would most certainly prefer a population to converse with, and so yes, maybe that would affect my decision to a degree. Considering Bernard, I kind of think that he would have preferred that he was offered re-education. I think he would have preferred to stay and have the government wipe away his conscious awareness of the way things are there so he could stay. Whereas, I think that Helmholtz would not have chosen that at all. He truly believed in something different, unlike Bernard's half-attempt to seem intellectual and independent.

Liza wrote: "I'm not sure I'd want to be an alpha, beta or anything else. The only real benefit I see an alpha has over an epsilon (or any other) is that they got more (perceived)perks and maybe more important ..."

I think that is a a great option too! :)

I think I would rather be an Alpha and know, but I also think that knowledge would make me miserable and paranoid. (view spoiler)[ My first thought had been the Savage Reservation, but it doesn't seem very open to outsiders; although if Linda had tried to fit in rather than cling to her "civilized" ways perhaps things would have been different for her and John. I'd be worried I might get reconditioned rather than relocated to an island. I think John had a good idea setting up a home in the unpopulated areas between cities. He was only noticed and bothered because he was a celebrity. That would be my choice. Know, be miserable, run away and hide in a little place in the country, plant a garden, possibly go a little nutty with the solitude, but be sure no one is messing with my mind any further. (hide spoiler)]

After completing this book I'm entirely uncertain that the author had a clear sense himself as to whether this 'Brave New World' was entirely 'good' or 'bad'. (view spoiler)[The fact that our 'protagonist' (I put this in quotes because, again, I don't think anything is entirely certain in the end; I could easily argue that the protagonist is any number of other central characters and I suppose that is the point of the original question) is found suspended from a beam by the neck, entirely of his 'own volition' (whatever that means precisely) seriously dents any theory that John's approach is 'best'. (hide spoiler)]

To answer the original question? In the context presented in the novel, I believe I would be happiest as an Alpha Plus, though there is no evidence that the other categories are any less content with their respective statuses IF we fully embrace the premise. If we reject the notion that this kind of conditioning could truly achieve the aims of this 'utopia' (which is probably the gut reaction most of us have) then it is hard to answer this question honestly.

Regardless, fascinating stuff.