The Thomas Mann Group discussion

This is for the discussion of the section until Part VIII, chapter 9.

It seems to me that once we start reading from Hanno's perspective, the tone shifts somewhat. It becomes infused with a sense of drama and, even in translation, the prose seems almost musical. Is my imagination in overdrive, or is anyone noticing this? Also, it occurred to me that almost all the scenes are set indoors. I can't remember anything happening outside since Tony went to the sea shore as a young woman.

Gary wrote: "It seems to me that once we start reading from Hanno's perspective, the tone shifts somewhat. It becomes infused with a sense of drama and, even in translation, the prose seems almost musical. Is m..."

Yes, very true... very much indoors.. The book begins with the new House, and that is their world.

As we progress through the years, arriving now at Hanno, the tone of the novel becomes more psychological and inward. This goes hand in hand with the "decline."

I have felt sorry for Hanno since the day of his birth. Everything must be sacrificed for the "firm" and the "family", even talent and personal happiness. Gerda sympathizes and supports his musical talents, but never fights to free him from family expectations. I wonder if his fragile health is due to frustrated desires?

I remember saying at some point that I'd be surprised if Mann ended up suggesting that the arts were more important than business. I've enjoyed his description of music ( Tom listening to that band on the 100th anniversary, Hanno listening to his mother and her teacher...) and am beginning to wonder if I was wrong before.

I agree with Jonathan. The chapters mentioned-especially Hanno's description of the Christmas celebration- were almost operatic. I'm being swept away by their intensity. It must be glorious to read it in German. My high school German teacher warned me that I'd regret fooling around in class.

Jonathan wrote: "I remember saying at some point that I'd be surprised if Mann ended up suggesting that the arts were more important than business. I've enjoyed his description of music ( Tom listening to that band..."

Yes, that was also my suspicion, that the subtitle of the novel was a false lead and that we would witness a transformation. Of course my idea is inspired by the knowledge that the BB are based on Mann's own family, and given that he and his brother became such famous writers... made me think that Hanno could easily turn out to be an artistic genius.

Lobstergirl wrote: "As we progress through the years, arriving now at Hanno, the tone of the novel becomes more psychological and inward. This goes hand in hand with the "decline.""

Yes, but I also took it as the result of a "young" writer, who when writing about people of earlier times felt less comfortable and consequently the portraits of the first generation appear more sketchy.

I see Hanno as symbolic of a European malaise. Mann was writing when the European world was mostly governed by outrageously opulent hereditary empires and monarchies with unreliable heirs. The Hapsburg Crown Prince Rudolf was mentally unstable and killed himself. The music-loving Bavarian king did not have children, and gave up his kingdom. The Romanovs were still having one girl after another. The once free city of Luebeck was absorbed by an empire with an unpredictable crown prince. The BB are a microcosm of this unease about the future. Many people at the time knew the system wasn't viable, but who could have predicted that it would crash so hard?

Elena wrote: "I see Hanno as symbolic of a European malaise. Mann was writing when the European world was mostly governed by outrageously opulent hereditary empires and monarchies with unreliable heirs. The Haps..."

And when the Romanovs finally had a male heir, he was afflicted with hemophilia (which was also a problem in many Western European noble families, basically because Queen Victoria and her daughters were carriers).

Hugo Weinschenk is the director of the Municipal Fire Insurance Company, which reminded me that for a few months in Munich in 1894, when he was very young, Mann worked as an apprentice at the South German Fire Insurance Bank. It's just one more example of how he milked everything around him for material for his fiction.

Lobstergirl wrote: "Hugo Weinschenk is the director of the Municipal Fire Insurance Company, which reminded me that for a few months in Munich in 1894, when he was very young, Mann worked as an apprentice at the South..."

Thanks for this snippet, Lobstergirl.

It's a shrinking world, isn't it, as people here have noted. It isn't just the inside of the house; it is the inside of the characters. I think that is why Gerda doesn't quite feel like a Buddenbook and neither, really, does Hanno. It's why Christian is the way he is, I think. He resists that shrinkage but is pulled by the family too.

I thought the choice of Tristan and Isolde by Gerda for her music practise was significant - it seems to suggest that her feelings for music are adulterous - which is her true passion, the husband undesired.

Weinschenk seems another Dickens style comedy name - Wein schenken would be to pour someone a glass of wine.

Fidelio, Beethoven's only opera featuring a man unjustly imprisoned longing for freedom. Little Hanno seems a bit imprisoned by Thomas who seems a bit overbearing, the school, his fear of the dentist...

Anybody else feel that Hanno was described as though he was a Victorian little girl? So delicate and shy and retiring? Particularly compared with the manly and vigorous Kai.

Jan-Maat wrote: "I thought the choice of Tristan and Isolde by Gerda for her music practise was significant - it seems to suggest that her feelings for music are adulterous - which is her true passion, the husband ..."

But the fact that we assume that Hanno is automatically like a little girl is problematic in and of itself, as it clearly shows that boys who are not vigorous and "manly" boys who are delicate and rather shy, are stigmatised and frowned upon (and even now).

Gundula wrote: "But the fact that we assume that Hanno is automatically like a little girl is problematic in and of itself, as it clearly shows that boys who are not vigorous and "manly" boys who are delicate and rather shy, are stigmatised and frowned upon (and even now)."

My impression was that this was a deliberate part of his characterisation on Mann's part. If that impression is automatic it is because of Mann's choice of language to describe him.

Jan-Maat wrote: "I thought the choice of Tristan and Isolde by Gerda for her music practise was significant - it seems to suggest that her feelings for music are adulterous - which is her true passion, the husband ..."

Thank you, Jan-Maat, for drawing attention to the musical references.

Yes, Gerda's passion is music. Both are equally enigmatic..

Mann was a Wagnerian (so was Proust..), and I had not thought of the Fidelio thematic link with Hanno.

I had just noticed that they were playing opera pieces reduced to piano, rather than pieces for the piano, but that was the available way of listening to pieces outside the opera or concert-hall.

Jan-Maat wrote: "this was a deliberate part of his characterisation on Mann's part. If that impression is automatic it is because of Mann's choice of language to describe him. ..."

I would also agree with this, that it is deliberate.

I thought the argument between Christian and Thomas was perhaps the most intense moment in the book, and very well written. I found myself developing much more empathy for Christian after following that scene, hearing him stand up for himself and then listening to Thomas' intransigence. Thomas could not bend with Christian or Hanno, even when something inside him told him he should.

I've been off reading something else (the tyranny of book clubs!) and regret having missed this discussion. I agree that Hanno's fragile characterization is indicative of bad things to come; he seems so lifeless and undisciplined: even the music fails to rouse him. He seems more like his uncle than he does like his father.

I'm thinking that Hanno's friendship with Kai is key...but I'm not sure why....

Do you think Kai is an example of someone who is free to develop according to his instincts? He's of noble birth so he doesn't have to prove anything. His father pretty much ignores him so he isn't fettered by family expectations. He is operating outside the constraints imposed by the bourgeoise.

That sounds right....

Kai is also, in some ways, like the noble savage. He reminded me of Friday, from Crusoe.

He has beautiful hands...

Sue wrote: "I thought the argument between Christian and Thomas was perhaps the most intense moment in the book, and very well written. I found myself developing much more empathy for Christian after following..."

Yes, I agree.. So far this is the most interesting portrayal of Christian. This and when he set off for Chile.. I was expecting something interesting out of that but it fizzled out.