The Thomas Mann Group discussion

This is for the discussion of the section until Part X, chapter 5.

Tom's mental and physical deterioration is believably shown, I think, but I'm not as convinced that its cause is explained. Maybe it is just stress from not being up to the task and realising it.

Jonathan wrote: "Tom's mental and physical deterioration is believably shown, I think, but I'm not as convinced that its cause is explained. Maybe it is just stress from not being up to the task and realising it."

Thanks Jonathan for starting off this week's discussion.

I agree, the inner aspect of Tom's loss of strength is not sufficiently shown. Even though I found this one of the most interesting aspects of the novel.

Kalliope wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Tom's mental and physical deterioration is believably shown, I think, but I'm not as convinced that its cause is explained. Maybe it is just stress from not being up to the task an..."

Especially since Tom (as dictated by society) would often not show or rather not dare to show his own weaknesses, especially the innermost aspects of his soul (one was taught and dictated to keep things silent and out of sight, which Tom does to a certain extent, but someone like Christian does not, cannot and perhaps does not even want to).

I have attributed Tom's "decline" mentally and physicallt to his growing older, but maybe not, since Mann was 25 when he wrote this book, so maybe he wouldn't have known how that affects people. It was also becoming more and more apparant to Tom that his son was not what he had hoped.

Diane wrote: "It was also becoming more and more apparant to Tom that his son was not what he had hoped. "

But the boy was still so young! I realise his traits were perhaps apparent, but was it really so impossible that he might not end up a very different person than the one they were beginning to peg him for? (Even Tom and Christian changed over the course of their lives.)

Jonathan wrote: "Diane wrote: "It was also becoming more and more apparant to Tom that his son was not what he had hoped. "

But the boy was still so young! I realise his traits were perhaps apparent, but was it re..."

But also, just because Hanno is not the kind of son that Tom had hope he would be, that is no reason to be so negative and to basically reject him (and Hanno is so sensitive that he would definitely have been aware of this). I only feel sorry for Hanno, and even if he is considered to be "decadent" part of his decadence, is him retreating into himself because he feels like an alien amongst most of his family (except perhaps his mother to a point).

I know several very good fathers who just cannot accept their sons sensitive, introspective natures. They push them into sports and other manly hobbies thinking that will help make them tougher. Those sons respond just like Hanno, and it results in fear and guilt for them.

I agree that Tom's malaise is probably partially psychological. He demonstrates denial about Hanno's problems which may be taking a toll on his health. Tony is also starting to manifest physical problems which may have psychosomatic origins.

I wondered about clinical depression in Tom. He increasingly found no joy in any part of his life, appeared to see only the negative everywhere and in everyone around him. He began to suspect Gerda. He suspected Hanno's future from the child's infancy. Some of his thoughts bordered on the irrational (his methods of saving money within the family) and his increased irritability was palpable.

I know the future of the firm weighed on him, but it seemed that life itself weighed on him. Sounds like a depressive nature within a rigid personality and a fairly rigid family. Not a good combination.

Then Tony exists in her memories and dreams of the family's past and continued hopes for the future. Neither can seem to cope with the real world.

Sue wrote: "I wondered about clinical depression in Tom. He increasingly found no joy in any part of his life, appeared to see only the negative everywhere and in everyone around him. He began to suspect Gerda..."

I wonder too, I found the image of him slumped with his head in his hands at his desk in the private office very affecting. There doesn't seem to be a way out for him. His reaction to the news of the suicide suggested to me that he was evaluating shooting yourself as a method rather than responding to the tragedy of that situation.

None of the children seems to be ok, Christian is hardly a model of health either.

The comparision with the sleek and healthy Hagenstroms seems comical

Sue wrote: "Then Tony exists in her memories and dreams of the family's past and continued hopes for the future. Neither can seem to cope with the real world. "

Too true. And neither notices this about themselves or each other. (view spoiler)[ I wondered if Gerda noticed it, but if she had regrets about marrying Tom, it never showed, except after his death when she suggested she might move to her father's. (hide spoiler)]

Jonathan wrote: "Sue wrote: "Then Tony exists in her memories and dreams of the family's past and continued hopes for the future. Neither can seem to cope with the real world. "

Too true. And neither notices this ..."

There were one or two mentions, can't recall exactly when, during this "coming apart" of Tom, when Gerda is noted to be observing him while at dinner or in the salon or whatever with a question of concern in those eyes of hers. I think she did notice but that their relationship wasn't the type that permitted much sharing...at least at that stage. Tom wasn't in a mood to listen to anyone at that point.

Sue wrote: "There were one or two mentions, can't recall exactly when, during this "coming apart" of Tom, when Gerda is noted to be observing him while at dinner or in the salon or whatever with a question of concern in those eyes of hers. I think she did notice but that their relationship wasn't the type that permitted much sharing...at least at that stage."

Yeah, I remember a few times when Gerda was observing Tom closely but the narrative, at least to me, didn't ever commit or hint at what she was thinking, so I just decided to let it slide. I didn't think Mann gave enough detail to let me make a fair inference.

For me Gerda remained a mystery.

Kalliope wrote: "For me Gerda remained a mystery."

I still don't see why she married Tom. I'm not sure what function it has in the novel. OK it is another way in which Tony can be disappointed by what she wishes for - is there anything else?

Gerda could have stayed with her husband and played the fiddle in Amsterdam - moving to Lubeck seems a step into a distinctly smaller cultural world while there doesn't seem to be much if any passion in the marriage, so I'm still at a loss as to why she marries Tom.

Mann could have had his Tom marry a local girl. I suppose looking at all three children maybe the point is that they all had wider horizons and perspectives at some point in their lives but fail to capitalise on them?

It's interesting to speculate about Gerda because she remains so mysterious. I think Tom married her as a kind of demonstration of his independence. Christian and Tony each moved away and he was left minding the store(house). He chose an artistic outsider because she gave him some cosmopolitan credentials-and she was very rich. But as Jan-Maat pointed out, we will never know what motivated her. Even poor Tom had a hard time figuring her out.

The only thing that is not mysterious about this marriage is that she was bringing a huge dowry, 300,000 marks vs the 80,000 that Tony had.

Although I do not think that the financial aspect solely explains the marriage.

It seemed to me early on that Tom prized her, and not just in the financial sense. Gerda was a beautiful, talented woman who would bring culture to his home and hoped for children. I also find it interesting that, of all the characters, it's Gerda who remains youthful and attractive at the end, apparently physically untouched by the Buddenbrook decline although obviously emotionally involved.

By the end Tony is more childish than ever, seeming to get her only satisfaction in "I told you so". Someone mentioned in one of the section threads about the classic nature of the book. The Buddenbrook cousins certainly do seem like the classic Greek chorus.

Gary wrote: "He chose an artistic outsider because she gave him some cosmopolitan credentials-and she was very rich."

This rings true to me too.

Sue wrote: "By the end Tony is more childish than ever, seeming to get her only satisfaction in "I told you so"."

This is probably the main reason I grew less enchanted with Tony as I progressed through the novel.

Jonathan wrote: "Sue wrote: "By the end Tony is more childish than ever, seeming to get her only satisfaction in "I told you so"."

This is probably the main reason I grew less enchanted with Tony as I progressed t..."

I agree. She was a shell of a person by the end.

I also found it difficult to read the many details of Hanno's last day(s) at school. This was the one section that pulled the book down for me.I understand that Mann was likely trying to show the many different cultures and types that would be at play in Germany's future as they were in the schoolyard, just as there were many different cultures among the various teachers. But it seemed endless and I only just avoided skimming.

Sue wrote: "It seemed to me early on that Tom prized her, and not just in the financial sense..."

Yes, I agree. That is why I said that the financial, in spite of being a very attractive aspect, did not explain it.

Gerda for me remains like an ethereal Music muse... She delights every one but is not accessible, not even for her husband....

Sue wrote: "I also found it difficult to read the many details of Hanno's last day(s) at school. This was the one section that pulled the book down for me.I understand that Mann was likely trying to show the many different cultures and types that would be at play in Germany's future as they were in the schoolyard, just as there were many different cultures among the various teachers. But it seemed endless and I only just avoided skimming."

I was surprised that it kept going on and on. I wasn't tempted to skim, not exactly, but I was curious about why he choose to write it in such detail. Maybe we should discuss this in one of the other threads though. (I've lost track of what was happening at the end of chapter 5, Part X.)

Kalliope wrote: "Sue wrote: "It seemed to me early on that Tom prized her, and not just in the financial sense..."

Yes, I agree. That is why I said that the financial, in spite of being a very attractive aspect, d..."

Yes, I think that's true. It amazes me that she gave birth, although not without difficulty.

Kalliope write: Gerda for me remains like an ethereal Music muse... She delights every one but is not accessible, not even for her husband....

I think that's the point, and I think that's the issue with Hanno too. Gerda represents, or seems to, what the family lacks. A knowledge of life outside of money concerns, an artist life. She is a muse, but she is seperate because her art seperates her. Her creations are not sterile in the same way that Tom's attempts at creation are - be it money or even Hanno.

I found Hanno's last days at school difficult as well. It was almost like reading a different novel, and it didn't hold my interest like the rest of the book. Maybe Mann intended it to be that way, to separate the decline from the final fall.

Diane wrote: "I found Hanno's last days at school difficult as well. It was almost like reading a different novel, and it didn't hold my interest like the rest of the book. Maybe Mann intended it to be that w..."

That's an interesting way to look at it Diane. It did seem almost cut from a different book. But then Hanno was from almost a different world too though the more I read of the school day, the more I thought that many of these boys seemed rootless, though perhaps not in the same way as Hanno who seemed almost not earthbound at times. (now there is a run on sentence!)