Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Dare I say that we seem to be getting into a different set of sections? Up to now, it seems to me that daily life at the sanatorium has been the predominant theme, with some side trips.

But here, we get into some -- meatier? -- areas.

Encyclopedia -- we see a side of Settembrini which we haven't seen before. Is this Encyclopedia akin to Casaubon's Key to All Mythologies? Or is there a chance it may actually get written? [In Middlemarch, in case you don't know the reference, Casaubon has been working for years on his Key to All Mythologies, but it gradually becomes clear to the reader that it is a futile effort and will never get written.]

Humaniora -- those who have been exploring the two sides of Beheren's view of humans, internal and external, and those who question the appropriateness of his painting M. Chauchat, have much more material now to develop their thoughts.

And Research -- what is HC up to? Is he just totally bored? Is this in character for him? I found this a strange chapter. Do others?

Everyman wrote: "Encyclopedia -- we see a side of Settembrini which we haven't seen before. Is this Encyclopedia akin to Casaubon's Key to All Mythologies?"

I thought of Brunetto Latini here. Settembrini has mentioned him before, and the name strikes a chord after reading Dante. He appears in the Inferno with the Sodomites. Brunetto took part in the revolution of 1250, after which a democratic government was installed in Florence. He was the author of an encyclopedia as well, which "treats of all things that pertain to mortals."

HC's Research -- I don't think he's doing this out of boredom. Based on all that has been said about Hans, I don't think he gets bored very easily -- he seemed fine just "being" without doing anything (while in the flatlands and early on in his stay at the sanatorium.)

Yes, this research does seem VERY out of character for him, but I think we've been beginning to see the changes in HC. He seems to want to change, and perhaps he wants to "fit in" with Beherens and Settembrini. I think he's somewhat in awe of both of them.

Also, I think HC's feelings for Frau Chauchat may have "awakened" a desire to be more knowledgeable about anatomy. (And part of this could be a jealousy of Behrens, especially due to the fact that Beherens painted a portrait of M. Chauchat.) HC only WISHES he could be so close to M. Chauchat (for a long enough period of time) to paint her portrait.

So perhaps HC wants to acquire some of the knowledge that Beherens has, thinking this could help him with Frau Chauchat.

Barbara wrote: "HC's Research -- I don't think he's doing this out of boredom. Based on all that has been said about Hans, I don't think he gets bored very easily -- he seemed fine just "being" without doing anyth..."

I'm not so sure. These are the first books we are told about him reading other than Ocean Steamships, which he was still reading during his rest cures the second and I think third weeks into his visit.

He has been trained as an engineer, and even though he isn't excited about going to work as one, presumably (since he managed to get hired as an engineer) he has some interest in technical and practical pursuits. He doesn't seem to have any interest in reading novels, poetry, or any other literature. (Even when I leave home for a day, I take either my Nook or my Kindle or both, and in addition at least one and usually two "real" books. I couldn't imagine going on a three day train trip, let alone a three week vacation, with only one book. And I suspect most of us here are the same way.)

So it seems to me likely that he is done with Ocean Steamships, at least for the time being, and has to find something else to read during his hours in the lounge chair. And he chooses something technical and practical rather than literature or poetry.

Barbara wrote: "perhaps HC wants to acquire some of the knowledge that Beherens has, thinking this could help him with Frau Chauchat. "

Interesting idea!

Encyclopedia:

O my god! Settembrini!! A naive liberal!!! Or even a communist!!!??? All my illusions on this person crack down, and I had so much sympathies for him ...
... but one thought after the other:

First I see confirmed my suspicion that Settembrini is a man who talks a lot but does effectively not very much. This encyclopedia of all human sufferings is surely such a work where you can loose a lot of time without achieving anything than paperwork.

I would not say that Settembrini is a communist although before 1917 this is not so easy to define. He believes optimistically in progress and is member of a society of similar-minded optimists, but it is not said that this society thrives for power at any cost as did the communist party.

So Settembrini is a liberal who is not yet "mugged by reality". A naive optimist. He really believes that all evils go away if you just organize society straightforwardly with good intentions. And the way he tries to pull Hans Castorp into his world of naive optimism is almost similar to conversion attempts of a religious sect. When Joachim comes into the room and disturbs the conversation the German word "Entsatz" is used, i.e. "relief force" as if in case of a siege.

But ... in his age ... will Settembrini ever be "mugged by reality"? Will he ever let into his mind the notion of problems which do not go away if you approach them with good intentions? Problems which cannot be "solved" but only be limited and hedged? I dare to say that Settembrini has a lack of personal development! Maybe he is indeed a tragicomic figure, a "Drehorgelmann", i.e. an "organ grinder"?

And I like that Hans Castorp is showing opposition.

Writing a book is always a noble undertaking, and what could be more important than The Sociology of Suffering:

"... treating every species of human suffering, from the most personal and intimate to the great collective struggles arising from the conflicting interests of classes and nations; it will, in short, exhibit the chemical elements whose combination in various proportions results in all the ills to which our human flesh is heir. The publication will in every case take as its norm the dignity and happiness of mankind, and seek to indicate the measures and remedies calculated to remove the cause of each deviation."

I love it!

Is there any connection between Settembrini's The Sociology of Suffering and Burton's Anatomy of Melancholy?

I find the notion both idealistic and naiv that we can create a taxonomy of suffering and, by doing so, ease it. It says as much about the compiler(s) as it does about the maladies. (NB The current controversies over the soon to be released DSM-V).

Wendel wrote: "Writing a book is always a noble undertaking, and what could be more important than The Sociology of Suffering: "

Well, what could be more important might be a book that it was actually possible to write in one lifetime.

I can't help thinking that there is an implied reference to Diderot's Encyclopédie in here, but I'm not sure how it would fit in. Both Settembrini and Diderot were liberal thinkers, both were at best skeptical about the church, but I would think there must be something more than that, though I can't see what.

Also, I think this commitment to suffering is out of Settermbrini's character. He is a humanist, and shouldn't humanists be concerned with the elevation of the human race, rather than exhibiting " the chemical elements whose combination in various proportions results in all the ills to which our human flesh is heir."

Further, he claims to be a rationalist, but there is nothing rational about suffering; by its very nature, it seems to be the power of the senses overcoming the power of the mind, whereas a rationalist should be focusing on just the opposite.

Thorwald wrote: "Settembrini...and I had so much sympathies for him ..."

I still veer towards sympathy towards him...sometimes, and I still think that SOME of his advice and observations may well be on the mark (such as the sanatorium being run primarily for profit---I so suspect he's right about that).

But he does say things that shock me/ in that some of the things he says seem very far from humanism. The one that first jolted me was when Settembrini said "Austria must be crushed, crushed and dismembered, first to take vengeance for the past, and second to lead in the new law of justice with truth on earth" (157).

How that second can live in the same sentence as the first, I have no idea.

I would say that the counterpart to Settembrini's Encyclopedia of Suffering is the book that all of the patients are all so eager to read -- The Art of Seduction.

For Settembrini, the body is a source of corruption, the "devilish principle" opposed to mind and reason. But as HC concludes his research in an analytical way and gets nowhere, he find that the body is the source of life. Life is energy, fever, infection, and lust. Life is spirit turned "disreputable." It's what he hears the Russians doing in the room next door.

"What do you have against the body?" HC asks Settembrini.

"What do you have against analysis?" Settembrini responds.

After researching the answer to "what is life", after breaking life's material composition into its smallest structural components -- the systematic approach Settembrini takes with his encyclopedia -- HC finds that "Life is prohibited from understanding itself." Here I can't help thinking about the prohibition in Genesis and that Settembrini is associated with Satan.

But in Freedom, doesn't it seem that Mann/narrator is backing Settembrini when Settembrini rants against the pleasure resort and depravity, and irony?

"Guard yourself, Engineer," he says. And HC knew what S way saying, but his sympathies were elsewhere.

And Mann/narrator writes: "Thus ungrateful is immature youth! It takes all that is offered, and bites the hand that feeds it" (221).

So SOME of Settembrini's advice would probably be good for HC.

Adelle wrote: "So SOME of Settembrini's advice would probably be good for HC. "."

Yes, absolutely. The great thing here is that Mann is not taking sides, he is simply describing opposing approaches to some very big questions. (Well, not simply. Nothing is simple here.)

I liked the analogy of Hans Castorp and his cigar.

Like HC, his cigar "was in the first stages of consumption" (252).

HC needs to be exposed to ideas--even if it seems they might be dangerous, just as his cigar needs exposure to air that might seem dangerous:

"Once, at home, I had the idea of keeping Maria in an air-tight tin box, to protect her from the damp. Would you believe it, she died! Inside of a week she perished--nothing but leathery corpses left" (253).

I can't get over how inappropriately unprofessional Behrens seems. ?Maybe this is typical man-to-man 1907 guy talk, but there's so much sexual suggestiveness in his conversation and his coffee-mill, too. Pretty roguish, indeed.

Mann created this wonderful little video in my mind from the words he used to describe Joachim and Hans visiting the abode of Behrens. I didn't need You-tube et al. ;-)

Research -- I felt a little bit like I was reading Dante again. There I was struck by how much has been learned about astronomy and the universe since 1300. Here I was aware of how far medicine, knowledge about the human body, about microscopic structures, about atomic and subatomic particles, .... have moved since 1924. I tried to imagine what Mann would have tried to present if he were writing today -- stem cell research, Higgs boson, ....?

In between we have antibiotics to DNA to AIDs.....

1933 -- The Nobel Prize to Thomas Hunt Morgan for his work on the hereditary transmission functions of chromosomes.

1935 -- German chemist Gerhard Domagk announced the discovery of Prontosil, the first sulfa drug for treating streptococcal infections.

1936 -- Dr. Alexis Carrel develops artificial heart.

1939 -- Rh factor in human blood identified.

1940 -- Penicillin developed as a "practical antibiotic" -- Howard Florey.

1941 -- "Manhattan Project" began -- multitudinous discoveries related to atomic structures.

1942 -- First automatic computer developed in U.S.

1945 -- First atomic bomb detonated in July (Alamogordo, NM).

Lots of work on vitamins in this period; insulin came into its own for treatment of diabetes.

Lily wrote: "Mann created this wonderful little video in my mind from the words he used to describe Joachim and Hans visiting the abode of Behrens. I didn't need You-tube et al. ;-)"

I loved that scene, when HC and Joachim visit Behrens at his residence (connected to the sanatorium). I agree, Lily, the description of Behrens' little home, the furniture, the artwork on the wall (especially the one of Frau Chauchat), the expensive coffee, the cigars, even the way the three of them were seated and then the way they stood looking at Chauchat's portrait, and their conversations -- ALL of this was so beautifully descriptive. It was wonderful to read.

Barbara wrote: "Lily wrote: "Mann created this wonderful little video in my mind from the words he used to describe Joachim and Hans visiting the abode of Behrens. I didn't need You-tube et al. ;-)"

I loved that..."

And Frau Chauchat's portrait leaning against "the club chair on rollers" where Hans sits while they sipped the coffee "as strong as it was sweet." Hans toys with the sensuous coffee mill and smokes the "unusually large, wide cigarette imprinted with a golden sphinx." The little Egyptian princess is almost a mirage on the ceiling. (pp.311-12 in Woods)

The 2nd to the last page of "Research" was somewhat difficult to follow.

Mann is writing of/HC is reading of infectious tumors--in the physical sense.

But he's also, isn't he, writing of what can happen in a moral/spiritual sense to the patients at the sanatorium? Possibly to Hans Castorp?

I think the description of the growth of an infectious tumor applies not only to how physical tumors grow, but also applies to how an idea or life style {"life about him" (32)/"surroundings" (248)} can affect/infect somebody. If I'm reading that right.

"tumors [ideas/thoughts/life style/surroundings] ...produced...in an organism which had proved receptive to them [and HC has been described as very receptive], and in some way or other--one must probably say perversely--had offered them particularly favorable conditions..... produced ...combinations which were extraordinarily toxic--undeniably destructive--to the cells where it had been entertained [the ideas/the thoughts of this life style were entertained in the mind]....and it was amazing to see what small doses of this substance...could, when introduced into the circulation of an animal, produce symptoms of acute poisoning and rapid degeneration...all this good living soon led to ruin....the nuclei [the core being] ...began to break down....in a high fever [HC does have a fever] ...with heaving bosom [his heart is pounding when he sees or thinks of Madame Chauchat]--toward dissolution...an accentuation through desire....This was the Fall" (285-286).

Settembrini to HC: "Engineer, you are not the man to assert your better self in these surroundings" (248).

I have to wonder if Hans Castorp is headed towards a fall.

With Settembrini's last turn I offer a new theory on the plot, my latest approach to this book:

Mann wants to show characters in whcih good and evil are mixed, and the task of Hans Castorp is to find out the right mixture.

The visit at Behrens is one of the key events in this novel, I guess. It's all symbolic!

- The exchanged cigars and how they taste!
- The portrait.
- The coffee service.
- The behaviour of Hans Castorp: Like in a dream ... he acts by inner impulse, not rational ...

Hans Castorp and Dr. Behrens meet to test their forces in the fight on Madame Chauchat?

An appealing theory.

Everyman wrote: "Barbara wrote: "HC's Research -- I don't think he's doing this out of boredom. Based on all that has been said about Hans, I don't think he gets bored very easily -- he seemed fine just "being" wit..."

Everyman, good point in Message 4. LOL -- prior to e-readers, when I had a five hour or longer plane flight I would pack around eight different books in my carry-on bag. Even on shorter flights, I never carried less than three or four books at a time.

Now I do what you do -- I bring my Nook and maybe one or two printed books (but THIN ones), just in case my Nook runs out of power and I'm not in a place where I can charge it.

So when I read that HC only brought ONE book with him, and the book was Ocean Steamships (which he didn't seem to be very interested in), I personally felt a loss. (That's how brilliant Mann is as a writer -- he gets me to feel, as a reader, as though I'm in the shoes of the characters, and this overall "boring" feeling came over me at the idea of ONLY having a book called Ocean Steamships on such a long journey!!)

I completely agree with everything you said, but I still don't think HC is reading anatomy/biology/physiology due to boredom. I don't think he is capable of being bored now that he's "fallen in love" with Frau Chauchat. I think HC would be perfectly happy sitting in a spot where he has a chance of possibly seeing her, and when he's in his room or on his balcony I think he's perfectly happy just thinking of her.

Thorwald wrote: "With Settembrini's last turn I offer a new theory on the plot, my latest approach to this book:

Mann wants to show characters in whcih good and evil are mixed, and the task of Hans Castorp is to ..."

I like this theory too. Hans Castorp's psyche is like the weather on the mountain -- it snows in summer, and then it becomes unseasonably warm. It's unpredictable. He is fond of sensual pleasures, but he also explores the nature of life as an engineer would, analyzing it. So far it seems to be an opposition of passion and reason, of the body and the mind. It reminds me of the image of the chariot in Plato's Phaedrus, where the charioteer must make the horses of reason and passion work together. He has to moderate between the two extremes. I'm not sure if that's where MM is going, but it seem to me that way so far.

Thomas wrote: "Thorwald wrote: "With Settembrini's last turn I offer a new theory on the plot, my latest approach to this book:

Mann wants to show characters in whcih good and evil are mixed, and the task of Ha..."

True, and I support the analogy to Plato's parable of the soul chariot. As an engineer Hans Castorp even seems not aware that he has a body resp. feelings. When visiting Dr. Behrens his feelings clearly rule out his reason. I laughed when Thomas Mann wrote that Hans Castorp took the picture of Mme Chauchat with him to the coffee table :-)

It's a kind of "Freudian slip" by actions instead of words ...

Adelle wrote: "But he's also, isn't he, writing of what can happen in a moral/spiritual sense to the patients at the sanatorium? Possibly to Hans Castorp?"

I had a similar thought about the discussion of single cells vs. "multicelled formations"--that what we were really talking about was the residents of the sanatorium. They don't seem to "know if they should be regarded as a settlement of single-celled individuals or as a single living entity, and in providing their answer would have vacillated strangely between the use of 'I' and 'we.'"

Zeke wrote: "I find the notion both idealistic and naiv that we can create a taxonomy of suffering a..."

An Encyclopedia of Human Suffering--a project both noble and ominous, as one man's suffering may be another man's joy. In the end, it all seemed utterly preposterous to me, a satire of something (what?)...until you mentioned the DSM, Zeke! Oh, my!

Adelle wrote: "I can't get over how inappropriately unprofessional Behrens seems. ?Maybe this is typical man-to-man 1907 guy talk, but there's so much sexual suggestiveness in his conversation and his coffee-mil..."

I was very shocked at how unprofessional Behrens is. I kept thinking of how much of a "scandal" his behavior would cause in 2013 -- especially in America!! (Even in 2003 or 1993!!)

Hans drops a clue to his flavor of Protestantism during the visit to the Dr.'s lair--he says he had gooseflesh at his confirmation. Confirmation implies infant baptism; I wonder if Calvinists practice infant baptism?

Lily wrote: "Here I was aware of how far medicine, knowledge about the human body, about microscopic structures, about atomic and subatomic particles, .... have moved since 1924.."

This list of scientific achievements since MM was published made me think of one before: the Special and General Theories of Relativity, which I believe proposed time as the 4th dimension, and the notion of the warping of time and space--anyone out there who actually knows much about science please correct me if need be. Early in MM the narrator talks about the equivalence of space and time, and warping and relativity could describe some of the narrator's points about the instability of time. Einstein was born German, move to Switzerland and was working at the patent office in Bern when he first proposed Special Relativity, at about the time our story is taking place (1905.)

Thorwald wrote: "Encyclopedia:

O my god! Settembrini!! A naive liberal!!! Or even a communist!!!??? All my illusions on this person crack down, and I had so much sympathies for him ..."

While rereading MM I have been dipping into Joseph Campbell's The Masks of God: Creative Mythology which has a long section on MM. One quotation from Mann about "erotic irony" struck me:

"And this is what makes art so worth our love and worth our practice, this wonderful contradiction, that it is--or at least can be--simultaneously a refreshment and a judgment, a celebration and reward of life through its delightful imitation, and at the same time, a morally critical annihilation of life; that its effect is in equal degree an awakening of delight and of conscience. The boon of art proceeds from the circumstance...that it maintains equally good relationships to life and to pure spirit, that it is simultaneously conservative and radical; from the circumstance, that is to say, of its mediate and mediating place between spirit and life. Which is the place of the source of irony itself."

So I think we can, along with Mann, like Settembrini for his energy, his will, his concern for Hans's intellectual an moral development, and be flabbergasted by the idea of an encyclopedia of suffering and Settembrini's naivety about it.

Encyclopaedic

'I would urge it upon you: hold yourself upright, preserve your self-respect, do not give ground to the unknown. Flee from this sink of iniquity, this island of Circe, whereon you are not Odysseus enough to dwell in safety. You will be going on all fours—already you are inclining toward your forward extremities, and presently you will begin to grunt—have a care!'

By now we are getting a pretty good idea of what S. stands for. He is urging HC to go back to Hamburg, build ships, marry a healthy girl, have kids, go to church on sunday, vote for a decent party, and so on, and so forth. It makes sense, but happily it is in the nature of a young man to want more. To take greater risks, to be stupid and suffer as a consequence.

In fact the Italian's message is so simple that Mann has to employ some crude tricks to hold our attention. He makes him a more than life-size caricature (The Sociology of Suffering is just his latest grotesque antic). And he mystifies by denying him a precise historical dimension (a 19th century liberal bogeyman transplanted). No wonder that Settembrini is not a convincing personality, that he never comes alive.

Now I come to think of it, this is true for all of the inhabitants of the MM. Card board figures (the females only one degree flatter than the males), with their morality-play names written out: mrs. I.M. Narrowminded, mr. Honest Simpleton, mr. Christian Quack, mrs. Clawdia Hotcat. These people have the depth of figures from an Agatha Christie novel, without the cosy atmosphere that makes the latter attractive.

But we are still here. Personally I think it is partly Mann quality as a writer. I can almost read this sentence for sentence, as a book of quotations. But there is more. Hans is slowly coming alive as a hero, the only living being on the mountain. On his own in a haunted house. And yes, I do want to know how he will deal with these ghosts ..

Humaniora

'Hofrat Behrens rocked back and forth on his heels and the balls of his feet, his hands in this trouser pockets, as he gazed at his work in company with the cousins. “Delighted,” he said. “Delighted to find favour in the eyes of a colleague. If a man knows a bit about what goes on under the epidermis, that does no harm either. In other words, if he can paint a little below the surface, and stands in another relation to nature than just the lyrical, so to say.'

Tree men contemplating a portrait of a young woman. A painting weak in psychology, but with a certain quality in skin texture. No wonder the conversation turns towards the material in stead of lyrical aspects. 'The Greek sculptors did not trouble themselves about the head and face, their interest was more with the body, I suppose that was their humanism.—And the plasticity of the female form—so that is fat, is it?” “That is fat,” the Hofrat said concisely.'...'Did you think it was ambrosia?”

Here dr.B. plants the idea in HC's head that he can get closer to mysteries of life, to Chauchat, through the study of physiology. Although Hans seems to understand it as a part of a something larger. For him all disciplines with a human object - be it medicine, law, philology, pedagogy or theology (almost everything but engineering) are humanistic callings, based on 'the idea of form', giving it '.. a sort of disinterestedness, and feeling, too, and—and—courtliness—it makes a kind of chivalrous adventure out of it. ... '.

PS: I wonder - is dr. B a morphinist?

Research

HC continues his study of physiology on his own, displaying an uncharacteristic diligence. Mann himself must have been fascinated by the subject. I'm sure he enjoyed writing this long and lyrical recapitulation of Haeckel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Ha...) and others.

'It was the existence of the actually impossible-to-exist, of a half-sweet, half-painful balancing, or scarcely balancing, in this restricted and feverish process of decay and renewal, upon the point of existence. It was not matter and it was not spirit, but something between the two, a phenomenon conveyed by matter, like the rainbow on the waterfall, and like the flame.'

Impressive, but what does it mean? Mann may have got carried away a bit in this section. Even after a second attempt I find it difficult to say what this is all about, and I'm not sure I should invest more time. I confess that in the end I skipped most of it.

E'man @1 * Casaubon did not do so bad after all. As James Frazer he even made the shortlist of post MM reads (for an in-defence-of-Casaubon:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/t...

E'man @4 * "And he chooses something technical and practical rather than literature or poetry." But HC just discovered that engineering is not really his thing. He wants to change his field of expertise to (one of) the Humaniora.

Thorwald @6 * Settembrini represents 'the West' - and not only in his own mind. That makes it difficult to see him as just a talker. But it may be that he finds it difficult to adapt to the German context. Mann must have thought of the German liberals and their ineffectual opposition to the Bismarckian state. Here is a lot of territory that we still have to explore.

Zeke @8 * "I find the notion both idealistic and naiv that we can create a taxonomy of suffering and, by doing so, ease it." Well, Mann certainly wanted us to have a good laugh. Still, sociology was popular enough until the 1980's. Haven't heard much of it since.

Adelle @10 * "... Austria must be crushed, crushed and dismembered, first to take vengeance for the past, and second to lead in the new law of justice with truth on earth" - which goes to show that Settembrini too is human ...

Adelle @12 * Some of S's advice is good, well actually most of it makes sense. The question is, do we want to live in a sensible manner? It would also help if we knew what the Chauchat way means .. Personally I feel that society as a whole would do well to follow liberal principles, but that in our private lives there should be room for some of the wilder stuff .. like love, art, religion.

Don @29 * "I wonder if Calvinists practice infant baptism? " Yes, they do.

Wendel wrote: "Now I come to think of it, this is true for all of the inhabitants of the MM. Card board figures (the females only one degree flatter than the males), with their morality-play names written out: mrs. I.M. Narrowminded, mr. Honest Simpleton, mr. Christian Quack, mrs. Clawdia Hotcat. These people have the depth of figures from an Agatha Christie novel, without the cosy atmosphere that makes the latter attractive.
"

Agreed. I am struggling a bit to stick with this. I am not yet at the point you've reached, Wendel, where I care so much how Hans will "deal with these ghosts." But I'll depend on you all to keep pulling me along. Onward!

Don wrote: "Hans drops a clue to his flavor of Protestantism during the visit to the Dr.'s lair--he says he had gooseflesh at his confirmation. Confirmation implies infant baptism; I wonder if Calvinists prac..."

They do, at least some denominations that link themselves with Calvin. I can't speak for all, or even quote what Calvin himself says in his Institutes . If it did not occur as a child, baptism may accompany confirmation, but then the two together become considered a rite of passage to adult faith.

In "Humaniora"

The residents are outside. Hofrat Behrens comes through the garden. "He was nervous; visibly started when he saw the cousins, and seemed embarrassed over the necessity of passing them" (252).

Any thoughts as to why he was nervous?
Why he visibly started when he saw HC and Joachim?

In "Humaniora"

Hofrat Behrens to Hans Castorp. (Not actually identified, so it might have been to Joachim...but I think HC.)

"Behold, behold, Timotheus!" (252)

I've been trying to discover what Behrens meant by this. Don't know if this actually pertains.

Most seemingly relevant I have found is from Plutarch's Lives. I figure this might work, since the educated Behrens may have been familiar with it.

"The Romans and the Parthians were sometimes friends, oftener enemies.... the Parthians, the most formidable enemy that the Romans encountered in Asia, and who stopped their victorious progress in the East."

{Might Settembrini represent Rome/ Madame Chauchat the Parthians?)

"Timotheus distinguished himself during the period of decline of the power of Athens," but later, he was unsuccessful and Timotheus was brought to trial on his return home...was convicted...sentenced to pay a heavy fine....couldn't pay...withdrew...died.

--

Or, from Timothy, a Greek name, "Honoring God."

--
Or,

A Timotheus travels through Asia with Paul in Acts.

An interesting note.

Towards the close of "Honoriora," HC says, "And if one is interested in life, one must be particularly interested in death, mustn't one?" (266).

Which goes along with all the temperature taking, of course.

Finally found something on "Hibbe" (websters-online-dictionary.org)

This I find rather cool.

It says that in High German, "Hippe" means scythe.

And Death carries a scythe.

At 6 Thorwald wrote: "First I see confirmed my suspicion that Settembrini is a man who talks a lot but does effectively not very much...."

Yeah, you may right; that may well be an aspect of Settembrini. There's that disquieting statement he made:

"...writing well was almost the same as thinking well, and thinking well was the next thing to acting well" (159),

yet Joachim is the one who said, "we must act" (184).

Joachim appears to be the only one there whose goal is to leave.

At 33 Wendel wrote:


PS: I wonder - is dr. B a morphinist? ..."

I don't know. But I do wonder why only HC and HB are described repeatedly as having bloodshot eyes. And Hofrat Behrens so often with those purple cheeks. What's up with that?

Don wrote: @30 "...This list of scientific achievements since MM was published made me think of one before: the Special and General Theories of Relativity, which I believe proposed time as the 4th dimension, and the notion of the warping of time and space--anyone out there who actually knows much about science please correct me if need be. Early in MM the narrator talks about the equivalence of space and time, and warping and relativity could describe some of the narrator's points about the instability of time..."

Don -- I didn't include Relativity on the list because it would take more digging than I am willing to do to determine what might have been known by Mann at the time he was writing MM. I suspect some scholars and critics have looked at this closely.

You might also have noticed that Mann seems to refer to a solar-system like model of the atom. I've done a little further checking and verified that Neils Bohr had published three critical papers in 1913 that were apparently the ones that moved conceptualization of the atom from Thomson's 1904 "plum pudding" model to a model of energy shells and essentially of electrons orbiting a nucleus. (That an atom had a nucleus had not yet been clearly identified in 1904.) To me, a bit of evidence that Mann was making efforts to integrate up-to-date findings and concepts into his novel-making.

The timing is close enough, it wouldn't surprise me if Mann were aware of time-space theories/hypotheses from the world of physics. Many outside the world of science found those concepts too tantalizing not explore them in other ways. (Consider the decades later Lawrence Durrell's The Alexandria Quartet (1962).)

Adelle wrote: ""Behold, behold, Timotheus!" (252)

I've been trying to discover what Behrens meant by this. Don't know if this actually pertains.
."

Behrens is quoting Schiller's "Cranes of Ibycus."

http://www.has.vcu.edu/for/schiller/i...

Wendel wrote: "Research

HC continues his study of physiology on his own, displaying an uncharacteristic diligence. Mann himself must have been fascinated by the subject. I'm sure he enjoyed writing this long and..."

This is a difficult episode, but I think it might explain why HC is so fascinated with disease, and perhaps why he advocates for his own illness and is unable to leave the mountain. He concludes that life is an "infectious disease of matter," the result of the spirit turning disreputable. Biological life is a disease of the spirit.

His obsession with Chauchat has its roots in the same infectious disease that he is researching -- sexual desire, the disease of the spirit which results in physical life (and eventually death.) Love is a disease, as Krokowski lectures. And now HC has convinced himself of that with an argument from biology.

But in the final image of the section we see that HC is not afraid of this disease anymore. He invites its caress.

Thomas wrote: "Adelle wrote: ""Behold, behold, Timotheus!" (252)

I've been trying to discover what Behrens meant by this. Don't know if this actually pertains.
."

Behrens is quoting Schiller's "Cranes of Ibycu..."

Thank you, Thomas!

Thomas wrote: "Wendel wrote: "Research

HC continues his study of physiology on his own, displaying an uncharacteristic diligence. Mann himself must have been fascinated by the subject. I'm sure he enjoyed writin..."

Yes, by defining whole life as a disease he neutralizees Dr. Krokowski's view. He is in need of rationalizations to justify forbidden behaviour. Let's hope it helps! (Better would be to recognize that it simply is not forbidden ...)

By the way: The astronomical considerations contain an allusion to Plato's Timaeus: The order of the cosmos corresponds to the order of state and society.

@18Barbara wrote: "...even the way the three of them were seated and then the way they stood looking at Chauchat's portrait,..."

We have talked a number of times about Frau Chauchat's physical appearance, including suggesting she was perhaps a bit-tomboyish in figure and frame. I don't recall all the passages we have accumulated (again, I am frustrated by the lack of an ebook or searchable electronic text), but here I did note: "Where her tender, though hardly meager bosom lost itself..." (p307, Woods)

However, Lowe-Porter endows her perhaps not so generously: "The pale shimmer of this tender,though not emaciated, bosom, losing itself in the bluish shadows of the drapery, was very like life." (178, online)

Thomas wrote @45: "His obsession with Chauchat has its roots in the same infectious disease that he is researching -- sexual desire, the disease of the spirit which results in physical life (and eventually death.) ."

Thanks Thomas, I accept your reading of HC's research. Lust and illness both reside in the body, they are the same. The reasoning may have had logic for someone trying to understand homosexuality when this was unanimously seen as a disease.

While dr.K understands illness as a result of lust, HC may, like Settembrini, believe in a reversed causality. But now he is also convinced that one has to accept lust as one has to accept disease. Slam those doors! To resist, like Settembrini suggests, is futile (and unpleasant).

But it is not only negative. While the Chauchat's portrait is stripped of the lyrical, reduced to skin, skin in its turn is raised to the level of art. In the same way illness is understood as a potentially higher state of being.

That is madness. But what has Settembrini to offer instead? Strange as it may seem (now), 'the West' has no erotic dimension. Only sonnets. And silly love songs.

Adelle wrote @40: "... in High German, "Hippe" means scythe. And Death carries a scythe."

Hm, I found that it would rather be a pruning-knife (an interesting thing for a boy to own), or at best a sickle. I'm sure Thorwald can give a definitive answer.