Classics and the Western Canon discussion

There are only three sections in this week's reading, and they are so different I am going to give each its own thread.

The Danse Macabre, or Dance of Death, is a medieval allegory of Death summoning people, from popes to laborers, to dance along to the grave. It is represented in a number of musical compositions, in mystery plays, in paintings. I hope that Lily will do her magic in finding a couple of particularly interesting artistic representations!

Research, then Danse Macabre -- is Hans simply casting around for ways to occupy his time, or are these part of his progression from an ordinary, innocent young man to something more than that?

Everyman wrote: "There are only three sections in this week's reading, and they are so different I am going to give each its own thread.

The Danse Macabre, or Dance of Death, is a medieval allegory of Death summon..."

I appreciate to have a thread for each part!

A very famous and typical "Totentanz" is known from Thomas Mann's home town Lübeck:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCb...



It was destroyed in the air raid of March 29th, 1942.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_...

Thorwald wrote: A very famous and typical "Totentanz" is known from Thomas Mann's home town Lübeck:..."

Thank you, Thorwald!

I was not particularly familiar with such art as such a popular form. Here are some links that provide additional illustrations:

The Lubeck "Totentanz" was apparently a very long mural. This link gives another view of it. The thumbnails by section at the bottom of the page will enlarge by clicking on them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tot...

This is the English version of a Wiki page on the Dance Macabre (numerous thumbnails here will enlarge):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danse_Ma...

For those of you who don't bother with links, from the link above:

"A danse macabre painting may show a round dance headed by Death or a chain of alternating dead and live dancers. From the highest ranks of the mediaeval hierarchy (usually pope and emperor) descending to its lowest (beggar, peasant, and child), each mortal's hand is taken by a skeleton or an extremely decayed body. The famous Totentanz by Bernt Notke in Lübeck's Marienkirche (destroyed during the Allied Bombing of Lübeck in World War II) presented the dead dancers as very lively and agile, making the impression that they were actually dancing, whereas their living dancing partners looked clumsy and passive. The apparent class distinction in almost all of these paintings is completely neutralized by Death as the ultimate equalizer, so that a sociocritical element is subtly inherent to the whole genre. The Totentanz of Metnitz, for example, shows how a pope crowned with his mitre is being led into Hell by the dancing Death." [Bold added.]

For many of us, we are probably reminded here of Edgar Allen Poe's The Masque of the Red Death (1842):

http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/worl...

or http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/POE...

Following the trace of the destruction of the "Totentanz" by Bernt Notke in Lübeck took me to this Wiki article on the Hanseatic League:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseati...

and from there to this Holbein portrait (1535) which led me to ask if this might have been our Hans Castorp if he had lived some 400 years earlier:



A silly diversion, I know, but I just didn't resist the temptation to share this lovely Holbein portrait.
The notes here about the portrait of this seaside Hanseatic merchant seemed just a bit relevant to our story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hol...

Loved the notes on the portrait. Thanks, Lily.

Also Bergman's The Seventh Seal

What is the motivation for Hans Castorp's doing? I think it is pure actionism. He wants to do something. To react to death and love to which he has no answers. He is driven to act in some way, but does not really know, how. So he acts along well-known patterns: Charity and the like, where his awe for death is fitting well, too. (Funny how the dying persons themselves often disturb Hans Castorp's aweful view on death.)

So he started doing something, almost like he started to listen to Settembrini, not with a clear goal, but just to do something. Kind of "placet experiri".

After several fine examples of danse macabre, Thorwald begins to analyse Hans' motivation and behavior. I find myself disagreeing. Thorwald calls it "pure actionism." That is similar to Frau Gergross who suggests that, somehow, he is a bit of a "flirt."

But Mann tells us that he acted out of "medical and spiritual conviction, as a protest against the prevailing egotism of the place."

Like Thorwald, I am not prepared to take this at face value. Nor do I think Hans has suddenly developed a spiritual gravitas that wouold bring comfort to the afflicted. In fact, I wonder if the key might be in the notion of a "protest against the egotism of the place."

I hope others will shed their light on this behavior.

This is a sad chapter..poignant at the end wherein HC, J and Karen stood before a flat leveled area between two graves in the cemetery peopled primarily by the young... HC and J peering at blinking self aware Karen with her sad little smile. So much "dancing to the grave" in this chapter ...with different dance steps so to speak...but what indeed is the reason for HC sudden need to visit/care for the moribund? Yes, the protesting of the egotism of the place is mentioned ( Is the egotism evidenced by clients cavorting as if at a pleasure spa (denial) with quasi disdain of the flatlands?). Also TM states HC's actions are a protest to S. Does this mean this is, at least in part, a reaction to S's urging HC to leave the sanatorium so to lead a useful life down in the flatlands? Is HC protesting by proving he can provide usefulness right here in the sanatorium to those most in need...and not become beclouded by the sanatorium like the others? Of course, there is some inherent satisfaction in aiding others as well.

The dance macabre always brings to my mind the Saints Innocents Cemetery in Paris where a mural was painted on the back wall of the arcade below the charnel house on the south side of the cemetery between August 1424 and Lent 1425. It was destroyed in 1669 when this wall was demolished to allow the narrow road behind it to be widened (In the late 18th century, the cemetery had to be closed from over use and the bones moved to what is now the catacombs in Paris)

Sue wrote: "The dance macabre always brings to my mind the Saints Innocents Cemetery in Paris where a mural was painted on the back wall of the arcade below the charnel house on the south side of the cemetery ..."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia...



Anyone know of a better image, perhaps that recreates the mural itself?

Thanks for this, Sue. Not a location I knew about, although I believe I already mounted a picture from the catacombs somewhere in this MM discussion -- or was it another???

http://exploration.urban.free.fr/carr... -- I haven't explored this site, but appears that it might have many pathways on the undergrounds of Paris. (It can be easy and rapid to flip down through it.)

More: http://cultureandstuff.com/2011/06/08...

Conference paper available online: http://www.academia.edu/1679638/Dance...

www.medievalists.net/2011/01/08/guyot...

Clicking to read the article includes a number of reproductions of woodcuts from Guyot Marchant's publication mentioned in the previous paper as capturing images, after a fashion, from the original mural.

Zeke wrote: "But Mann tells us that he acted out of "medical and spiritual conviction, as a protest against the prevailing egotism of the place.""

He also says a number of times that he has "moral" reasons.

I think the world and life are such that people ought to dress mostly in black, with a starched ruff instead of your military collar, and deal with one another in a serious, muted, formal way, always keeping death in mind -- that's how I'd like it, that would be moral.

Why is this moral? Or rather, why does HC think that respect for "death's children" (as he calls them) is moral?

Settembrini's response to HC's new activity is interesting. He quotes scripture to him: "let the dead bury the dead." He also declares that HC is "one of life's problem children." He may have a point.

Thomas: "moral"

I thought that might go back to grandfather. Grandfather had been sick; HC was all down on S for not repecting the sick. Grandfather died.

I found it worth noting that HC is saying it's "moral"; usually he says something is " proper."

That's significant, I think. "Proper" is often for show/ or because society says one " should.". "Moral" is an internal value.

Remember HC back in The Christening Basin chapter. " the figure th old man presented"....." he held with the old ways"....those judgements, on some level, became the judgements of he boy HC..." and they persisted in later life" (24).

HC embraces his new faith in the duality of love&death. As usual among converts, he would even like to adapt his clothing: 'I think the world, and life generally, is such as to make it appropriate for us all to wear black, with a starched ruff instead of your stand-up collar; and for all our intercourse with each other to be subdued and ceremonial, and mindful of death. That would seem right and moral to me.' The severe manners of the court of the Spanish king Philips II have a special appeal - an idea he gets from Schiller's play Don Carlos (view spoiler)[http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+Spa... (hide spoiler)].

In the same spirit of death and decay - and as a protest against the egotism of the place - HC decides to take an interest in the moribund. We then meet with a touching procession of terminally ill: the young Leila Gerngross, so happy with her hortensia and her two unwilling gallants, Herr Rotbein with his lively interest in the European flower market and Madame 'Overfilled' who feels that life is one big joke. Then there is Lauro 'tous-les-dé', who wants to die 'comme heros, à l’espagnol', the Russian Anton Ferge, who knows nothing of the higher things of life, but proves to be a fascinating story teller, and finally poor Karen Karstedt, with whom the boys go looking for a grave.

Wendel wrote: "In the same spirit of death and decay - and as a protest against the egotism of the place - HC decides to take an interest in the moribund."

This protest is indeed remarkable: It is directed against what is "proper". It is a first sign that Hans Castorp values something although "the society" around him does not value it.

From the Christmas program: Ich trage meine Minne

http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/get_te...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=re...

Thorwald wrote: "What is the motivation for Hans Castorp's doing? I think it is pure actionism. He wants to do something. To react to death and love to which he has no answers. He is driven to act in some way, but ..."

I think you have a large part of it. But I would add to that a speculation, no more than that, that HC is beginning to develop his interpersonal values. I surmise, partly from the text, partly from my conception of the German personality, that he didn't have any strong interpersonal skills (the only persons we seem him interacting in any significant way with are his cousin, and there it seems a fairly remote relationship for one he lived with for some time, and the image of Hippe/Chauchat). But here he seems to be developing some degree of caring about other people as people, caring about what he can do for them. This seems to me to be a step toward becoming a more complete human.

I do agree also that it's partly a response to boredom. But there are many ways he could have responded to boredom; one he chose (and as was noted above not all that successfully) was to read about the physiology. That seemed not to do much for his personal development. But this new interest in doing something to make other people, relative strangers to him, happier, add some degree of happiness to the ends of their lives, I see as perhaps a developmental step forward.

Or maybe I'm just thinking wishfully??

Thomas wrote: "He also declares that HC is "one of life's problem children." He may have a point. "

Okay, this is as good a time as any to use this as a lead in to a question that's been bugging me.

Both Settembrini and Behrens have referred to HC as a problem child. I have no idea what they mean by this. What sort of problem? Why a child and not a problem person? Is there some special meaning in the German that gets missed in translation, or is it perhaps a reference to some German folk tale or legend?

I would love somebody (or many somebodies) to explain what they think Mann means by this phrase. Or, better yet, to explain what Settembrini means by it, and whether Behrens means the same thing or something slightly different by it.

I thought at one point maybe it was just a reflection that he comes to the sanatorium as a guest rather than a patient, which makes a problem in how to relate to him, but I rejected that because there seems to be a much more significant meaning in their using the phrase. But what that more significant meaning is has so far escaped me.

Any help?

Everyman wrote: "Thomas wrote: "He also declares that HC is "one of life's problem children." Okay, ... Both Settembrini and Behrens have referred to HC as a problem child. ... What sort of problem? Why a child and not a problem person?.."

This touches the central theme of the novel: the problem child Mann is thinking of is Germany itself. Or Germany's soul, if you like. It is a child because the problem is developmental (giving hope that everything will be all right eventually).

This child stands out from the rest because of it's many gifts, it's talents. But, being susceptible for all kinds of influences, it's also at risk. Many thought - with reason - that the unification of Germany in 1870 meant that the country had to redefine itself also spiritually. To decide its new place and its mission in Europe.

Unified Germany was asking, like a child: "Who am I, what am I going to do". And it was pulled between the rationality of the West and less definite (more emotional, organic) influences from the East. We will see in the next chapter how Mann will try to give the East a more distinct voice.

Mann would also use the expression 'problem-child' because by 1924 he was convinced that the war had shown that many Germans, himself including, had been tempted in a wrong direction. And maybe he already had some awareness of future risks.

Wendel wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Thomas wrote: "He also declares that HC is "one of life's problem children." Okay, ... Both Settembrini and Behrens have referred to HC as a problem child. ... What sort of problem...
This touches the central theme of the novel: the problem child Mann is thinking of is Germany itself. Or Germany's soul, if you like. It is a child because the problem is developmental (giving hope that everything will be all right eventually)."

That puts a very interesting slant on the novel, and on my reading of it. I will have to do some serious thinking about how, for example, HC's shifting foci, for awhile on just lying in bed, then on his temporary fascination with research, then on his concentration on service to others, then on his previously unspoken infatuation with Chauchat coming to a head in his declaration of love, work into this concept of his representing the issues Germany was working through. I wish I had a better sense of German history of the time to have a better handle on this.

Everyman wrote: "Thomas wrote: "He also declares that HC is "one of life's problem children." He may have a point. "

Okay, this is as good a time as any to use this as a lead in to a question that's been bugging m..."

The simple answer (maybe too simple) is that HC won't sit still and be a good boy. He questions Behrens and Settembrini as authority figures, he tests them, and he exhausts them. Mann tests the reader a bit as well with his extended riff on biology and metaphysics in "Research."

Thomas wrote: "The simple answer (maybe too simple) is that HC won't sit still and be a good boy. He questions Behrens and Settembrini as authority figures, he tests them, and he exhausts them. Mann tests the reader a bit as well with his extended riff on biology and metaphysics in "Research." "

If memory serves (unfortunately I don't have an electronic text to search, since the one that has been linked to elsewhere won't load for me) he was called a problem child fairly early on, before there was evidence of any serious questioning of either Behrens or Settembrini. And he hasn't really challenged or exhausted Behrens, has he? He went to bed when he was told to, he's followed the routine quite faithfully, he bought his thermometer and is regular in taking his temperature, he hasn't demanded to know when he can leave (in that respect, Joachim is much more of a problem child). I'm not sure where he has challenged Behrens as a authority figure.

And Settembrini certainly must be used to many people he talks to not automatically accepting his ideas without question, besides which, what right does he have to think that a fellow patient should consider him an authority figure in the first place? (Again, Joachim seems more of a challenger of his authority than Castorp, doesn't he?)

You may be right, but I would need some specific evidence of what you're relying on to not be a problem child about your idea. [g]

This may be just a very weird coincidence, but the only person I have ever met from Hamburg was a foreign exchange student named Axel who lived with my cousins for a year in the early 80s. His favorite song, which he used to sing to an air guitar accompaniment, was "I'm a problem child..." Which was very funny because he *was* a problem child, much wilder and crazier than my cousins ever were. I can still picture him at 16 (he's now 48!) singing it. Now I'm wondering whether that was a German song he was translating and whether "problem child" is an actual expression in German, or whether it was a song he picked up here, and this is just a very strange coincidence... :)

Ha! Never mind... It's AC/DC! Didn't remember that at all...
http://www.metrolyrics.com/problem-ch...

Everyman wrote: "I'm not sure where he has challenged Behrens as a authority figure. "

This gets a bit weird, inasmuch as HC has identified Behrens as a "paternal authority" in the Growing Anxiety/Two Grandfathers chapter, but his challenge is in regard to Claudia Chauchat. HC is certain that Behrens is in some sort of relationship with her, and I take his extensive questioning of Behrens (while he clutches his portrait of her) as a challenge. (That's in Humaniora.) The conversation wears Behrens out, and he says HC is "literally kicking over the traces," a phrase that HC later pairs with "problem child." It doesn't seem like much of a challenge, but the exchange in Changes where they discuss Chauchat leaving makes it appear that there is something more going on. That injection is a little more painful than it needs to be.

I can't find where Behrens refers to HC as a "problem child" either, but sharing an interest in the same woman is definitely a problem. Not a child's problem, but their relationship is weird that way.

As for Settembrini, what I was thinking of was Walpurgis Night, where HC insists on addressing him informally, which S. finds very offensive. HC then breaks off the conversation. S. takes this as a "farewell" and he does not see him again for some time. HC then approaches Chauchat, who S. has just called "Lilith" and warned him against.

HC is basically a good kid, and a good patient. But he pushes boundaries, which Joachim doesn't do at all. I think that's what makes HC a problem child. And it's not necessarily a bad thing!

Kathy wrote: "Ha! Never mind... It's AC/DC! Didn't remember that at all...
http://www.metrolyrics.com/problem-ch..."

Oh great. Now my image of Hans Castorp is of Angus Young in short pants and a schoolboy hat. :)

"Sorgenkind", i.e. ~ "sorrow child", simply means the one child (of several) in a family which makes sorrows to the parents, for whatever reasons, be it that it is ill, be it that it is wild, be it that is fails in school.

"Sorgenkind des Lebens" = "... of life" then means a widening of the horizon, the expression clearly brings to light that Hans Castorp is "the" Sorgenkind, not just any Sorgenkind.

Thorwald wrote: ""Sorgenkind", i.e. ~ "sorrow child", simply means the one child (of several) in a family which makes sorrows to the parents, for whatever reasons, be it that it is ill, be it that it is wild, be it..."

This kind of insight for those of us who don't know German is great. Thanks!

Thomas wrote: "Kathy wrote: "Ha! Never mind... It's AC/DC! Didn't remember that at all...
http://www.metrolyrics.com/problem-ch..."

Oh great. Now my image of Hans Castorp is of Angus Young in s..."

LOL :)

So is "sorgenkind" the word Mann used? And if so, is "problem child" really the best translation? (Though I'm not sure what other English phrase might work.) "Problem" and "sorrow" are two quite different things, it seems to me.

"one of life's probem children"/ or, "life's delicate child"

I really found Wendel's reponse at 19 interesting. (Germany)

But on the individual level I ran across something that might pertain:

Mann, in a 1921 review, wrote "Man at his highest and purist is a child of nature" (350)(thomas mann: eros and literature)

There was a boy and sex involved in the book he was reviewing, but I think it's possible to read the sentence very straight. Hans Castorp may very well have the potential to evolve to a high state. Mann has said that Hans Castorp is "simple." Intelligent, but perhaps with a child-like simpleness. And HC on MM has rigorously been studying nature.

Anyway, a possible angle on that repeated phrase.

Adelle wrote: "Man at his highest and purist is a child of nature"

This is a sentence with a meaning on which Settembrini and Naphta could argue very well. The key question is: What is nature?

Is it the wild nature of the beast in all of us? (This was Hitler's view, by the way.)

Or is human culture part of the human nature, is a human being without any culture not a "full" human being - ?