Classics and the Western Canon discussion

I have no idea what to make of this section. Up to now, the book has seemed to me to be an example of realism. Even with its unusual philosophical elements, and the mystique of the snow episode, it had a sense of realism, that one, or at least I, could imagine it all actually happening.

But this seance thing -- can anyone argue that it is to be taken realistically? Could Mann's original readership have believed it could actually have happened? If not, what on earth is it doing here? Is it a manifestation of HC's desire to see JZ again? Could a poet really spell out an entire poem of that length on an Ouija board? Could Elli Brand, her hands firmly held by HC, have used her mind alone to control the board? Or was Dr. K the controller, and he used Elli as a foil to divert attention from himself to her?

Any and all attempts to explain this section and how it fits into the work as a whole will be gratefully received. At the moment, I'm stumped.

Background information:

Spiritism was a kind of fashion or trend in that time. Maybe like today's jet set enjoys Kabbala mystics or try it with Scientology?

Wikipedia has a fairly good article on the topic under "Séance":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Séance

You find everything there:
- How it "works" (if so).
- When it was fashion.
- Criticism and psychological aspects. Very useful!
- Why some think they experienced "something", although there was nothing. Explains a lot.
- etc.

One root of the Hitler movement was "theosophy" which was an ideology founded by persons like Helena Blavatsky. They tended to have such practices, too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blavatsky
But this is IMHO only a minor aspect, Hitler himself was no spiritist as far as I know.

PS: The article on Ariosophy is helpful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariosophy
But IMHO this was not so much Hitler's cup of tea.

Interpretation

I don't think that Thomas Mann himself believed in spiritism, he rather uses this to show something: It could be the credulity of the people ... but this is IMHO not the major point.

I think the whole chapter has a climax until the moment when Hans Castorp abruptly decides to leave the Séance and not to see his cousin Joachim again. It is a decision against death, against dipping into dark memories of the past, against necrophile sentiments.

There is a whole book written by Erich Fromm on "The anatomy of human destructiveness" where necrophilia of national socialists is analyzed from a psychological point of view.

http://www.amazon.de/Anatomy-Human-De...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Fromm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrophilia

Yes, I recall reading in "Thunderstruck" (Erik Larson) (a book that regards in part Marconi and his perfection of his invention of the wireless in the early 1900s) how inventions and certain discoveries of that time (and even earlier) evidenced the "harnessing the invisible energy". Such led to the "distraction" of interest and even study in the paranormal and the possible convergence of physical law and psychical phenomena. But besides that point, I like your analysis, Thorwald, as to why such "fad" was inserted in MM...to show HC's rejection of death. It regards HC's quest to see how to regard death....whether to embrace (mysticism) or reject death or rather to have "sympathy" with death but to not dwell upon it ; in this chapter he clearly rejects mysticism. The "Snow" chapter was also quite telling of HC's sorting of the same. Daring (embracing?) death by his snowy escapade initially only to find its place and choose life.

I do know that the occult and seances and that sort of thing were very popular, at least in England and the US, and probably Europe generally though I don't know that for sure, especially in the mid-1800s -- Mary Todd Lincoln held seances in the White House to try to get in touch with the spirit of her dead son. Dorothy Sayers used a fake spiritualist in one of her detective stories. Sarah Winchester, of the Winchester arms fortune, built the Winchester Mystery House as a result of consultation with a spiritualist, and held seances there in a specially constructed room.

Modern spiritualism is alive and well, and there is even a college devoted to " the Advancement of Spiritualism and Psychic Sciences". http://www.arthurfindlaycollege.org/ I don't know whether seances are part of their curriculum, though.

So perhaps it's not surprising that Dr. K drifted into spiritualism studies. But that doesn't, for me at least, explain the very comprehensive and highly successful seance (the spirit spelling out an entire lengthy poem with apparent total accuracy) that Mann brings into the very end of HC's stay at Davos.

The founder of American psychology, William James, was also taken in by a spiritualist, a woman named Mrs. Piper.

From Wikepedia: James was the first president of the American branch of the Society for Psychical Research. The lending of his name made Leonora Piper a famous medium. He was soon convinced that Piper knew things she could only have discovered by supernatural means.[32] James expressed his belief that Piper's mediumistic abilities were genuine, saying, "If you wish to upset the law that all crows are black, it is enough if you prove that one crow is white. My white crow is Mrs. Piper."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonora_...

There did seem to be serious interest in mediums during this time.

James took up the study of mediums because he saw it as relating to psychology. He wanted to use empirical/scientific methods to study it---and was initially skeptical, indeed, he wrote that he found attending séances "a loathsome occupation" and believed the mediums to be fraudulent.

Mrs. Piper seemed to James to know such unknowable details. In one transcribed session James said, "'Can you tell me nothing more about Aunt Kate' The medium suddenly threw back her head and said in a startled way, 'Why, Aunt Kate's here. All around me I hear voice saying "Aunt Kate has come." Then followed the announcement that she had died very early that morning, and on being pressed to give the time, shortly after two was named." When William James and his wife returned home "they found a telegram to that effect" (William James: In the Maelstrom of American Modernism, page 260.)

After five+ years of studying her He wrote: "My impression after [the] first visit was, that Mrs. P was either possessed of supernormal powers or knew the members of my wife's family by sight and had by some lucky circumstances become acquainted with such a multitude of their domestic circumstances as to produce the starling impression which she did. My later knowledge of her sittings and personal acquaintance with her has led me absolutely to reject the latter explanation and to believe that she has supernatural powers." (258)

When I read Zeke's post I remembered reading of James's interest in spiritualism/ Mrs. Piper.

William James: In the Maelstrom of American Modernism

At 1 Everyman wrote: " Is it a manifestation of HC's desire to see JZ again?..."

Quite the vivid scene.

I thought perhaps it was Hans Castorp still longing for death. [I found a GradeSaver or such-like-site that also said that "Hippe" is word-play for "death."]
If Joachim were to materialize, Hans Castorp would have a very personal encounter with death. Maybe. "What was the world behind the song..." It was death" (652).

And then "Forgive me," to Joachim. I thought because, well, because HC knew Joachim to have been a decent, honorable, upstanding man. Perhaps the best man there at the sanatorium. And those who gathered for the séances were not the most admirable of those who resided at the sanatorium.

HC and Joachim had virtually never even called each other by their first names. They were private, reserved sort of people. Particularly Joachim. Recall how he would blush. And HC realizes that he has exposed the core of Joachim --- (like grandfather, dead in the coffin, being most truly "himself", so, too, Joachim, dead, is now most truly himself...a soldier and kind) ... HC has exposed the core of Joachim to these people who are there to see Joachim brought back for purely entertainment value... In effect, HC has helped bring the soul of Joachim back from where it rightly belongs to serve as a diversion for these people who are not worthy of Joachim. And what an arduous journey it must have been for Joachim...in his face was "plainly seen the stamp of suffering" ......and the time and effort it cost Elly...

Hans Castorp, recall from the beginning of the book, had always had a special affinity for music... it touched him... music, throughout the book, has been present when HC has had his transforming moments.

And here in this scene, HC most very favorite music selections have been played. The music that in the end worked to bring forth Joachim was from Faust. "Valentine's Prayer."



I found this online: "Valentine and others acknowledge in song that their weapons are useless against the powers of hell, but a cross will protect them. As they sing, they hold their swords with their points downward, so that their transverse handles give them the appearance of crosses."

"Joachim's sabre seemed to be leaning against his leg, he held the handle" (680).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlipNY...

At 1 Everyman wrote: Any and all attempts to explain this section and how it fits into the work as a whole will be gratefully received.

"Any and all" covers a wide swath. I found the following this evening. Page 107 has a take on the séance scene.

http://books.google.com/books?id=X7Rw...


I did wonder whether by calling Joachim back from the dead... I wondered whether that might not have led directly to the introductory sentence of the next chapter: "a spirit began to walk in House Berghof" (681). That maybe there is a spirit of evil which attaches itself to bodies brought back from death... such an act being an abomination.

Might the act of bringing Joachim back have led directly to the deteriorating spirits at Berghof... contributed to the atmosphere that led to the duel between S and N? And as Joachim was dressed as a WWI soldier---and WWI hadn't yet been fought---might this indicate that the very act of pulling Joachim back into this world...tipped...the world toward WWI?

In "Fullness of Harmony" Valentin's aria is described as HC's fourth favorite selection in the music library. Evidently he planned to have it available during the seance, since he deliberately misplaced it with the records that might be played. Here are the lyrics (from the Met Opera website) :

Before leaving this place,
native soil of my ancestors,
Lord and King of Heaven,
I entrust my sister to you.

Consent to protect her Always,
always from all danger, this sister, so dear,
consent to protect her from all danger!

Relieved of a sad thought,
I will go to seek glory.

Glory at the heart of the enemy,
the first, the bravest, in the heat of battle,
I will fight for my country.

And if God calls me to Him,
I will watch over you faithfully, oh Marguerite!

Before leaving this place,
native soil of my ancestors, Lord and King of Heaven,
I entrust my sister to you.

O King of heaven, turn your eyes here,
protect Marguerite, o King of heaven!

Also, let us not forget that the "villain" in the opera, the man who seduces Valentin's sister, is Faust. Although not Goethe's knowledge-seeking Faust, the allusion still resonates for me with MM.

In her grief over the death of their young son, Mary Todd Lincoln began attending, and then hosting, seances. Abraham Lincoln attended at least one. He is said to have remarked, "Seances remind me of cabinet meetings. The spirits give conflicting advice."

I finally managed to read this chapter tonight. I can't count the number of nights it has been my lullaby -- I simply couldn't seem to bring myself to get interested in this sort of pseudo-whatever.

But, having started and restarted and overlapped reading these pages, I did slowly become fascinated by Mann's writing of them. It eventually seemed like a thoughtful and rather piercing commentary on the popular interests in the paranormal that my readings elsewhere (as well as your comments here) have suggested were quite strong at the time. The sentences, their sequence, and to whom statements are attributed speak to credulity, skepticism, and curiosity. As uncomfortable as the chapter was for me to read, I became intrigued and impressed by Mann's writing of it. It must stand among the better literary descriptions of a seance and those who participated in them. (More vivid than Tolstoy, as I recall.)

Lily wrote: "I finally managed to read this chapter tonight. I can't count the number of nights it has been my lullaby -- I simply couldn't seem to bring myself to get interested in this sort of pseudo-whateve..."

I think not very many educated people today believe in seances and all that surrounds them, but at the time Mann was writing, the situation was quite different.

One of the interesting things about this episode is that the ghost of Joachim makes the same "gathering" gesture that he makes on his deathbed. I didn't understand what that gesture signified in the deathbed scene, and I don't understand it here, but it lends some credibility to the ghost. I don't read anything in the scene that says HC doesn't believe what he sees... he just wants it to stop.

Any idea what the gesture signifies?

I have read that "plucking" at sheets or the air by a person dying is sometimes seen ...not sure if that would be the same or similar to a gathering gesture...nor do I know what is signifies. I also recall reading that a person may speak or gesture to "someone" only he can "see" near/at the end.

Thomas wrote: "One of the interesting things about this episode is that the ghost of Joachim makes the same "gathering" gesture that he makes on his deathbed. I didn't understand what that gesture signified in th..."

Thomas, I'm not finding the repetition, but I recall that I, too, did not understand Joachim's gesture at his deathbed. To the extent I interpreted it, I thought of it as part of the embracing inevitability of death that I consider to pervade MM -- an inevitability that life must continually affirm itself against. Which seemed to me sort of what HC did when he turned on the light -- a "yes, death, but not now" gesture. "To you, Joachim, I regret disturbing your peace. But I resist joining you."

It seems to me that the very title of this chapter suggested the skepticism with which the occult was held, without denying the possibility of its reality. Does this apply to both Hans and his author? Well, Mann grants Hans a sensory (and emotional) experience that must certainly have been hard to deny and perhaps as troublesome to integrate into Hans' own development as selecting among the intellectual parries of N&S. But I don't believe we are given another glimpse of how Hans does so, except perhaps obliquely in "The Thunderbolt."

Excerpt from "Highly Questionable:"

(view spoiler)[ “Yes, here it is, Faust, Valentine’s Prayer.” It had been stuck by mistake in the album of light music, not in the green album of arias, where it belonged; quite by chance—or mismanagement or carelessness, in any case luckily—it had partaken of the general topsy turvyness, and here it was, needing only to be put on.

What had Hans Castorp to say to that? Nothing. It was the doctor who remarked:“So much the better,” and some of the others chimed in. The needle scraped, the lid was put down. The male voice began to choral accompaniment: “Now the parting hour has come.”

No one spoke. They listened. Elly, as the music resumed, renewed her efforts. She started up convulsively, pumped, carried the slippery hands to her brow. The record went on, came to the middle part, with skipping rhythm, the part about war and danger, gallant, god-fearing, French. After that the finale, in full volume, the orchestrally supported refrain of the beginning.

“O Lord of heaven, hear me pray. . .”

Hans Castorp had work with Elly. She raised herself, drew in a straggling breath, sighed a long, long, outward sigh, sank down and was still. He bent over her in concern, and as he did so, he heard Frau Stöhr say, in a high, whining pipe: “Ziems—sen!”

He did not look up. A bitter taste came in his mouth. He heard another voice, a deep, cold voice, saying: “I’ve seen him a long time.”

The record had run off, with a last accord of horns. But no one stopped the machine. The needle went on scratching in the silence, as the disk whirred round. Then Hans Castorp raised his head, and his eyes went, without searching, the right way.

There was one more person in the room than before. There in the background, where the red rays lost themselves in gloom, so that the eye scarcely reached thither, between writing-desk and screen, in the doctor’s consulting-chair, where in the intermission Elly had been sitting, Joachim sat. It was the Joachim of the last days, with hollow, shadowy cheeks, warrior’s beard and full, curling lips. He sat leaning back, one leg crossed over the other. On his wasted face, shaded though it was by his head-covering, was plainly seen the stamp of suffering, the expression of gravity and austerity which had beautified it. Two folds stood on his brow, between the eyes, that lay deep in their bony cavities; but there was no change in the mildness of the great dark orbs, whose quiet, friendly gaze sought out Hans Castorp, and him alone. That ancient grievance of the outstanding ears was still to be seen under the head-covering, his extraordinary head-covering, which they could not make out. Cousin Joachim was not in mufti. His sabre seemed to be leaning against his leg, he held the handle, one thought to distinguish something like a pistol-case in his belt. But that was no proper uniform he wore. No colour, no decorations; it had a collar like a litewka jacket, and side pockets. Somewhere low down on the breast was a cross. His feet looked large, his legs very thin, they seemed to be bound or wound as for the business of sport more than war. And what was it, this headgear? It seemed as though Joachim had turned an army cook-pot upside-down on his head, and fastened it under his chin with a band. Yet it looked quite properly warlike, like an old-fashioned foot-soldier, perhaps.

Hans Castorp felt Ellen Brand’s breath on his hands. And near him the Kleefeld’s rapid breathing. Other sound there was none, save the continued scraping of the needle on the run-down, rotating record, which nobody stopped. He looked at none of his company, would hear or see nothing of them; but across the hands and head on his knee leaned far forward and stared through the red darkness at the guest in the chair. It seemed one moment as though his stomach would turn over within him. His throat contracted and a four- or fivefold sob went through and through him. “Forgive me!” he whispered; then his eyes overflowed, he saw no more.

He heard breathless voices: “Speak to him!” he heard Dr. Krokowski’s baritone voice summon him, formally, cheerily, and repeat the request. Instead of complying, he drew his hands away from beneath Elly’s face, and stood up.

Again Dr. Krokowski called upon his name, this time in monitory tones. But in two strides Hans Castorp was at the step by the entrance door and with one quick movement turned on the white light.

Fräulein Brand had collapsed. She was twitching convulsively in the Kleefeld’s arms. The chair over there was empty.

Hans Castorp went up to the protesting Krokowski, close up to him. He tried to speak, but no words came. He put out his hand, with a brusque, imperative gesture. Receiving the key, he nodded several times, threateningly, close into the other’s face; turned, and went out of the room.

~ 460ff http://www.scribd.com/doc/31583019/Th...
(hide spoiler)]

Lily wrote: "Thomas, I'm not finding the repetition..."

My mistake. It's something Elly does in her trance. I'm not sure how Elly knows about JZ's deathbed gesture though...

Thomas wrote: "Lily wrote: "Thomas, I'm not finding the repetition..."
...It's something Elly does in her trance. I'm not sure how Elly knows about JZ's deathbed gesture though..."

All the more mysterious as to what Mann was doing, probably deliberately.

Lily wrote: "All the more mysterious as to what Mann was doing, probably deliberately.
"

I think more than probably; as the reading progressed, I became convinced that Mann had total control over what he was doing.

Everyman wrote: "I think more than probably; as the reading progressed, I became convinced that Mann had total control over what he was doing..."

Still, I frequently found it difficult, if not impossible, to discern his intent! ;-(

Everyman wrote: "I think more than probably; as the reading progressed, I became convinced that Mann had total control over ..."

I fully agree, Thomas Mann surely wrote again and again the passages of this book, balancing and distributing carefully all hints and symbols ... and all this without a computer! He did this on paper! Hand-written! ...

However, writers with whom I have discussed this level of control have always said to me that there ends up being more than can be controlled and a body of readers can inevitability notice things the author did not. I say this in no way to diminish Mann's accomplishment, just to put another perspective on the table and perhaps to explore again the view that a text in some sense is birthed into an existence independent of its creator.

Lily wrote: "However, writers with whom I have discussed this level of control have always said to me that there ends up being more than can be controlled and a body of readers can inevitability notice things the author did not."

I agree completely. The unconscious mind is not turned off when somebody writes.

Lily wrote: "However, writers with whom I have discussed this level of control have always said to me that there ends up being more than can be controlled and a body of readers can inevitability notice things t..."

Yes, and especially if the author created an atmosphere where every single detail can be suspected to have an important meaning.