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Now, does anyone else have any knowledge on this subject and can add or disagree here? I would love to know more.
Although my Norman ancestors most known to me are genetically NOT Viking by descent I tend to think it was innate.I have a grandfather who was born in Norwayand came to the US at a young age as a merchant sailor. The fjords which broke up most of Norway encouraged dependence on the sea, at least the North Sea.
My Norman Faunt/L'enfant family is genetically from the south of France so they were only political Normans, probably through marriage or even circumstance. This family are very military not seafaring to any great extent. Sir Walter L'Enfant was the first Justiciar of Ireland 1285-1310.
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Thanks, which? Norwegian Grandfather or the Normans?A very lucky DNA test by my Faunt first cousin precipitated the whole research..all the lines in Ireland are descended from the same male except one- at least so far.Once identified they are fairly easy to research using an Irish researcher.
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The Normans were masters of sea as well as land. William the Conqueror amassed a vast fleet to invade England. He also appears to have set sail at night which was risky. As you say, Carol, they travelled as far as the Mediterranean and eventually the Middle East, setting up Crusader kingdoms. Travelling by sea was quicker than by land. In England, the only good roads were the decaying Roman ones. William would have used these and the old trackways. But he was not averse to trekking across the worst country. He crossed the Pennines in terrible weather and the speed at which he moved was one of the keys to his success.
I think they must have been very like Vikings but with a veneer of sophistication. They certainly made a lasting impact upon the world.
Travel by sea was preferred, for all the reasons mentioned by the coastal peoples of north-west Europe: Galicians, Basques and Aquitanians, Bretons, Normans, Flemish, Angles/Saxons/Jutes, Scots, Irish and Norse.The fastest around-the-world yachtsman is currently a Breton. The Bretons had a strong navy: they famously gave Julius Caesar a hard time, and in 937 they swept the Vikings from the English Channel en route to recovering Brittany from 30 years of Viking misrule. Viking raids on Breton naval bases often failed miserably, which is why the Bretons still had toe-holds along their coastline.
Around 5000 Bretons accompanied William the Conqueror to Pevensey and Hastings, in 100 ships (the ratio, 50 per ship, is close to estimates from other expeditions). If the near-contemporary claim that William's forces had 696 ships in total, then the Breton ships must, on average, have been larger than the Norman ones.
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My understanding, not having been there, but having viewed a good documentary (by a French-speaking Basque), is that the Breton coastline is rocky but still has many good harbours.These are excellent questions. I'll hazard a guess to the first. Duke Alan II landed at Dol in 937 at the start of his successful venture to reclaim Brittany from the Loire Vikings. Dol is toward the Norman border and has an important See in the Penthievre region (as it is still called), so perhaps the ships were blessed by the Bishop of Dol and Alan embarked there?
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Carol wrote: "... [were] there not Bretons who rebelled against [William I] after Hastings? ...."Yes indeed: you're referring to the Revolt of the Earls in 1075 (see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_o...).
According to the little I've read, Ralph the Staller (a Constable for Edward the Confessor) was born in Norfolk of Breton parents. William made him Earl of East Anglia. He lived till 1068, being succeeded in his title by a son, Ralph Guader, also called Ralph de Gael (as he was Baron of Gael in Brittany).
In 1075, the younger Ralph contracted to marry Emma, a daughter of King William's most reliable Norman relative, William FitzOsbern, who had died in 1071. King William, who was out of the country at the time, was asked but refused to give royal sanction, so Ralph and Emma married anyway, in Exning, Cambridgeshire.
For some reason I don’t fathom, this quickly blew up into a revolt by the Odd Triple (Breton, Norman and Anglo-Saxon), namely Ralph de Gael, Roger of Breteuil (the younger of Emma’s brothers) who was the 2nd Earl of Hereford, and Waltheof who was the Earl of Northumberland and Huntingdon and Northampton (and was married to the King’s niece, i.e. Countess Adelaide's sister, Countess Judith of Lens).
The revolt was "plagued by disaster", and obviously Count Alan didn't support it because many of Ralph's properties were added to those Alan already held in East Anglia.
Waltheof confessed his part in the conspiracy to Archbishop Lanfranc, but the William I made an example of him and Waltheof became the only aristocrat executed by that King.
Roger was imprisoned, but "Ralph ... and his Countess Emma retired to [Brittany]. They left for the Holy Land, joining Robert [Curthose], Duke of Normandy, on the First Crusade, and died [on the road] circa 1101".
Ralph and Emma exemplify the fact that Bretons, and those they welcome into their country, have always valued freedom over unity (paradoxically, I think that's what unites them in adversity), so in late Roman times Brittany was a magnet for disaffected officials, soldiers and citizens, a role it maintained right through the Middle Ages, making it quite the melting pot.
Brian's two victories in 1068 and 1069 against the rebels in the south-west were recorded in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle; it was for this service that William the Conqueror granted Brian land in Cornwall: to judge by http://www.cornwallheritagetrust.org/..., Brian received at least 227 estates there, making him one of the great magnates.Carol wrote: "... why did Brian, Alan's brother, give up his Cornish lands? ...."
Brian was probably injured during a battle, either one of those for which he was granted Cornwall, or in fighting with or against Ralph in 1075, or in another of William's many conflicts in England or on the Continent.
So Brian became a semi-invalid and (the Cornish website above says "after 1075", but the French language source cited at http://www.geni.com/people/Robert-de-... says "after 1072") retired to Brittany to be comforted by his bride.
Brian's lands were then given to King William's younger half-brother, Robert the Count of Mortain, who thereby became the largest landowner after the King.
In Brittany, Brian still witnessed charters for a number of years; I don't know when he died.
Was Brian involved in the Revolt of the Earls? If he had rebelled, one would think that such a major lord and general would be mentioned in the accounts of the revolt.
So I think it more likely that Brian was either engaged in other duties, or fought against the rebels.
King Stephen, who was William I's grandson, accepted Brian's nephew Alan Niger II's claim to Cornwall on the basis of Brian's having held it, so Stephen mustn't have thought of Brian as a perfidious rebel. Unfortunately, Ranulf de Gernon the Earl of Chester had meantime claimed the south-west, so Ranulf went over to Empress Matilda to get it back, and later captured and tortured this Alan until he signed it over.
King William's younger half-brother, Robert, the Count of Mortain, was described as of sluggish disposition. He was not often mentioned in the records of the time, despite his vast estates (worth about 2200 pounds).But here's a Breton story about Robert, cited in http://www.geni.com/people/Robert-de-... and here translated from French:
"Relations with Brittany: Robert was active in the Duchy of Brittany after 1091.
According to the Chronicles of Vitre (a prosperous Breton border town), one day Robert and his men attempted a raid on the territory of Fougeres (in Ille-et-Vilaine), on the Breton side of the border with Normandy.
Robert was captured by Andre de Vitre, and Robert's men were killed or hanged. Robert offered his jailer [Andre] the hand of his eldest daughter [Emma], but while [Andre] was considering the proposal, Count William IV of Toulouse married her.
So, Robert then offered Andre the hand of Agnes, a younger daughter, with a dowry of six estates in Cornwall, to which Andre agreed.
The two barons then swore mutual assistance and exchanged twenty hostages as security. Agnes received everything André owned in the city of Rennes and the dower of his grandmother Ynoguen of Fougeres.
The marriage was confirmed by Robert de Torigni, and Andre de Vitre certainly held the lordship of Trigg in Cornwall in the early twelfth century.
Robert of Mortain also infeudated some of his land in England and Normandy to some Bretons from Fougeres, and certainly had significant interests in the region."
The above story is accurate as to the identities of two of Robert's sons-in-law; a third daughter, Denise, married Guido (Guy) of La Val (Laval) in Maine, a town quite near the Breton border.
Ralph the Staller shows that ethnic Bretons were established in military command positions in Edward the Confessor's England. King Harold would have dismissed Ralph from his post, which is likely what prompted him to join William's army.His son Ralph, Baron of Gael, was also Baron of Montfort-sur-Meu. From him descended the aristocratic house of Montfort-Laval.
I learnt this from the German wikipedia article on Ralph de Gael, which is replete with interesting facts about his varied and interesting career in Brittany, England, Normandy, Denmark and the Near East.
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Zoe, do you happen to know when Robert of Mortain attempted a raid on Fougeres? I hope it's not as late as 1091 as I shall have to rewrite some of my current novel.Martin
Martin wrote: "Zoe, do you happen to know when Robert of Mortain attempted a raid on Fougeres? I hope it's not as late as 1091 as I shall have to rewrite some of my current novel.Martin"
Robert, Count of Mortain, died on 8 December 1090, so your hard work is safe!
This brings to my attention that Count Alan Rufus, though he died probably in his 50s, outlasted his leading colleagues at Hastings: King William (who died trying to conquer France in 1087), Bishop Odo (who died 1097 but was neutralized, having been imprisoned in 1082 and defeated and exiled 1088) and Count Robert (beaten in 1088 but forgiven).
Before I forget, the evidence that the still youthful Count Alan was an early and important companion of King William's (and therefore was probably at Hastings) is not only the word of Wace, Gaimar and his own family, but also that he was a witness to a charter by King William in England in 1067, a year which William spent mostly in Normandy, it's said on triumphal procession.It therefore seems reasonably likely that in 1067 Alan already had either property or personal interests in England.
Katherine Keats-Rohan (I think it was) wrote that before 1066 Alan acquired some property in Rouen. I had previously read that he owned Richemont in far Upper Normandy (hence "Richmond" in Yorkshire).
Richemont is close to Aumale, where King William's sister Adelaide was Countess. During the Conquest, Adelaide obtained land in England also close by that which Alan had gained from Edeva the Fair/Rich (Edith Swannesha) and near Bourn where Alan's sister Matilda had married Walter d'Aincourt the Lord of Derby in 1065.
Perhaps Adelaide, Alan, Walter, Matilda and Edeva had formed a circle of friends? It would make a nice thread in a tale of the times, and would tie in neatly with Alan's other activities.
If it's true that Alan chose Gunnhild over Edith of Scotland at Wilton Abbey in 1093, one reason may simply have been their ages: Alan was in his fifties, whereas Edith was scarcely thirteen (13), but Gunnhild was about thirty (30). Perhaps he was not hoping for progeny, nor even to cement an alliance with Malcolm against Northumbria, but rather seeking a companion, a mature woman of enough years to make intelligent conversation with.
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While we're still in the dark as to how Alan Rufus died, I do have some ideas about when he was most likely born.His father Eozen, several brothers and he witnessed an Angevin charter believed to have been issed in the 1050s, so between 1050 and 1059. If in those days one reached one's legal majority and right to inherit at age 21, and if witnesses to property transfers were required to be old enough to acquire and dispose of property, then Alan would have had to be born no later than 1038.
Eozen was born about 999, and Alan was either the second or third son, so if the sons' births were spaced say 2 to 4 years apart, and if his wife Orguen/Agnes was born, as thought, about 1015, and if they married when she was 14, i.e. in 1029, then Alan could have been born between 1033 and 1037, making him between 29 and 33 at Hastings (but at least 28), a credible age for a vigorous young commander.
William was about 38 at Hastings, his brothers Odo and Robert of course a few years younger (at most age 35?), whereas Eustace of Boulogne was between about 46 and 51. (Maybe that's why Eustace was so cautious on the battlefield?)
By the above estimate, Alan would have been aged between about 55 and 60 when he died on 4 August 1093.
Important dates in 1093:Anselm nominated for Archbishop of Canterbury:
6 March.
En route to Gloucester, Malcolm III visits daughter Edith and sister-in-law Cristina at Wilton Abbey:
Unknown date, but in 1093 before 24 August.
Alan Rufus dies:
4 August.
Anselm lays down his conditions for accepting the position:
24 August.
Geoffrey Boterel I, i.e. Alan's eldest brother, killed:
24 August.
Malcolm arrives at Gloucester to negotiate with William II Rufus:
24 August.
William II refuses to negotiate;
Malcolm returns to Scotland:
On or soon after 24 August.
Anselm enthroned as Archbishop of Canterbury:
25 September.
Letters of Anselm to Gunhilda (http://epistolae.ccnmtl.columbia.edu/... and http://epistolae.ccnmtl.columbia.edu/...), dated:
Two occasions after 25 September 1093.
Malcolm III killed:
13 November.
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Carol wrote: "Zoe,thank you. This is so very helpful."Carol, I am always glad to contribute, when I can. Now, according to Google maps Wilton House (on the site of Wilton Abbey) is south of Gloucester, 77 miles by the A417, nearly in Salisbury. One passes through (or by?) Cirencester, Swindon and Marlborough.
Here's where I beg for evidence from more learned persons.
Depending on the terrain, the route in 1093 may have been longer, but assuming that it was of similar length, how long would it have taken Malcolm to travel the 77 miles?
Did Malcolm pass Gloucester on the way to Wilton? And did he find William II wasn't there, but discovered that William had gone to Wilton, then chased after him to protect his daughter Edith?
Or, contrary to the account in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_..., did Malcolm meet William II at Gloucester on 24 August, meet with his rebuff, then continue to Wilton for his daughter?
I'm thinking it would have been a roundabout trip to go to Wilton first, collect his daughter, then return via Gloucester. I haven't heard mention of William II and Edith meeting in Gloucester.
But why would Malcolm mention Alan Rufus as a potential suitor for Edith after 24 August, when/if Alan was already dead?
Or were Malcolm's words at Wilton that he wished that Alan were still alive to marry Edith, but with Alan dead, he feared there was no-one in England strong and wise enough to restrain William II and his bullies, and therefore he had to take Edith from Wilton for her own safety?
The Bottrill family claim descent from Alan's eldest brother Geoffrey Boterel. The following document on their website lacks the most current estimates for the dates, but is interesting in other ways - at least as a source of material for novels.http://bottrillfamilyhistory.com/file...
According to that, one of the Alans died in 1093 fighting Geoffrey! If this is so, that may explain why Alan Rufus died on 4 August 1093 and Geoffrey on 24 August 1093, for in this view, they were both fighting their most formidable competitors on the battlefield - their own family!
Why would Alan and Geoffrey battle each other? One historian I've read said that while Alan was pro-Norman, Geoffrey was anti-Norman, like their cousin Duke Conan II who had died in 1066 during a promising campaign to conquer Anjou and Normandy.
To really complicate things, Conan's grandson Alan IV "Fergant" (born about 1067, died 1119, Duke of Brittany from 1084 to 1112 when he retired to become a monk) was first married to princess Constance of Normandy (born 1057-1061, died 1090), daughter of William the Conqueror, but remarried in 1093 to Ermengarde of Anjou, daughter of Count Fulk IV of Anjou, an arch-rival of the Normans.
Alan IV was Alan Rufus's and Geoffrey's first cousin on one parent's side, and first cousin once removed on the other's, so that's genetically 3/4 of a brother. Alan IV also had red hair and was a powerful knight (as his nickname indicates), so I guess these two Alans would have looked somewhat alike.
Carol, to answer an earlier question of yours, the Bottrill document says that Alan Niger may have had an illegitimate son named "Hamo" by Gunnhilda.It also says that Alan Rufus was born in 1038, in which case the Angevin charter he witnessed was in 1059.
Dates the "Eudes de Penthievre.pdf" document asserts for Alan's brothers:
Geoffrey Boterel: Count of Penthievre 1079-1093 (died 24 August, as we know). There is a paragraph of chronologically misplaced material in this entry,
Brien/Brian: 1033?-1086, probably illegitimate, left England by 1072, so not involved in the Revolt of the Earls, just retired because of injury.
Alan Niger born 1042?
William born 1044: illegitimate.
Bodin born 1045? (illegitimate if full-brother of Bardolf as Domesday indicates).
Stephen: 1046-1138. (Died at 92 years of age? Then his mother Agnes/Orguen of Cornouaille would have been 31 when he was born, which is plausible; other sites claim he was born around 1060, making him 78 when he died, but then Agnes would have been about 45 when he was born, which is just possible but it would have made her one *strong* medieval woman - perhaps that's why her sons were so strong?)
Ribald born 1048, died 1120: illegitimate. (However, Domesday calls him "Brother of Count Alan", with no hint of illegitimacy, but then maybe Bretons were less fussed by that than some).
Bardolf born 1050? illegitimate.
Robert born 1056: illegitimate.
Geoffrey the younger: illegitimate, birth date not given.
Arnald: illegitimate, birth date not given.
Richard: born 1058, illegitimate.
Many genealogical sites state that Robert of Avranches, an (illegitimate?) son of Hugh of Avranches (born about 1047, died 27 July 1101), 2nd Earl of Chester, was actually named "Ruallon", which is Breton for Roland.If so, then the Earls of Chester, the later great rivals of the Earls of Richmond during the Anarchy, were also (at least culturally) Breton! This makes sense because Avranches was part of Brittany until illegally ceded by the French King Charles III to Rollo under the Treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte in Autumn 911 during the absence of the Breton sovereign house who were then refugees in England.
For more information, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_d%... and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_o....
Admittedly, the above relies excessively on tertiary sources, especially Wikipedia, but they provide easily accessible starting points for further exploration.
Zoe wrote: "Carol, to answer an earlier question of yours, the Bottrill document says that Alan Niger may have had an illegitimate son named "Hamo" by Gunnhilda.It also says that Alan Rufus was born in 1038,..."
Based on the Angevin charter witnessed in 1056/1060 by Eozen, Agnes and their sons Geoffrey, Alan, William, Robert and Richard, the birth dates "1056" and "1058" cited on 5 Aug 2013 for Robert and Richard must, I would think, be late by a decade at least.
Does anyone know at what age medieval men/boys were legally able to witness charters?
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Good question. I think Elizabeth will know. She is busy writing but I shall ask her to comment. She knows more than I on this subject. Can I call Eozen Eudo?
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It also says that Alan Rufus was b..."
I have written the book now and am editing. If I had not a deadline I could consider that. It is fabulous info, that.
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Carol wrote: "Zoe wrote: "Zoe wrote: "Carol, to answer an earlier question of yours, the Bottrill document says that Alan Niger may have had an illegitimate son named "Hamo" by Gunnhilda.It also says that Alan..."
Can't wait to read it Carol! Good for you..
I have redone my first chapter as I realized the scene I envisioned (passageway leading to rear entrance) would not have happened as Irish Tower houses had ONE door, sometimes with a yett..
The kitchen garden inside the defensive bawn ( castle wall) had to thus be drug around to the side so they could again walk into the one entranceway..
Carol wrote: "... Can I call Eozen Eudo?"Carol, this is my understanding of how one should name Alan's father.
Official documents and letters to and from church officials use the Latin form Eudo or Eudes.
In intimate conversation with fellow Bretons, he is Eozen.
In German and Dutch and presumably Frankish, he is Odo.
In modern French, his name is Éon.
In English might one call him Ian?
I don't know the Gallo form of his name, which is a pity as that is how he would have been privately addressed by the Normans and the people of Anjou, Maine and Eastern Brittany.
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Carol wrote: "Finally boys witnessed documents at age 14 when they had the right to do so. Before that age they might but with the adult consent. Elizabeth provided me with this info."Was there a minimum age for boys to witness documents in company with their parents? 7 years of age (the age at which it was expected they could clearly distinguish right from wrong)?
I'm trying to find the latest possible birthdate for Alan and his brothers who witnessed that 1056/1060 charter in Anjou with Eozen and Agnes.
If I go with 14, then all of those boys (Geoffrey, Alan, William, Robert and Richard, whom the charter listed in that order) must have been born by 1042/1046. Allowing 2 years on average between surviving sons, that puts their birth years as 1034/1038, 1036/1040, 1038/1042, 1040/1044 and 1042/1046, respectively, at the latest.
It would help date the charter and therefore the boys' ages, if we knew how long Eozen was in prison from 1057 when Conan captured him, i.e. when he was released. That would also clarify when Eozen and William could have been in contact.
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Carol wrote: "Oh not sure. Shall ask. Also was Richard 1 of Normandy Hawiz of Normandy's father ? It is a little hard to sort out. Were Alan and Alan Niger from the same mother? Do you know?"(1) According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_...
Richard 1 of Normandy and Gunnora his wife were the biological parents of the following children. (I've emboldened those I think to be the historically most significant.)
Richard II "the Good", Duke of Normandy
Robert, Archbishop of Rouen, Count of Evreux
Mauger, Earl of Corbeil
Emma of Normandy, wife of two kings of England
Maud of Normandy, wife of Odo II of Blois, Count of Blois, Champagne and Chartres
Hawise of Normandy, wife of Geoffrey I, Duke of Brittany
Papia of Normandy
William, Count of Eu
Richard 1 also had at least 3 children by mistresses:
Geoffrey, Count of Eu
William, Count of Eu (ca. 972-26 January 1057/58), m. Lasceline de Turqueville (d. 26 January 1057/58).
Beatrice of Normandy, Abbess of Montvilliers d.1034 m. Ebles of Turenne (d.1030 (divorced)
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Carol wrote: "... Were Alan and Alan Niger from the same mother? Do you know?"(2) Yes. The English inheritance sequence was: Alan Rufus -> Alan Niger -> Stephen. Alan Rufus and Stephen had the same mother, Agnes of Cornouaille, so she was Alan Niger's mother also.
Carol wrote: "So Hawise was Emma's sister and aunt to William of Normandy!"Hawise and Emma were William's great-aunts.
Zoe wrote: "Carol wrote: "... Were Alan and Alan Niger from the same mother? Do you know?"(2) Yes. The English inheritance sequence was: Alan Rufus -> Alan Niger -> Stephen. Alan Rufus and Stephen had the s..."
The 1056/1060 charter explicitly calls Geoffrey, Alan, William, Robert and Richard children of Eozen and Agnes. Alan Niger and Stephen were not mentioned therein, so likely they were younger than those five.
How Brian fits into the family, and what his probable birth year was, I'm still endeavouring to figure out. He didn't witness the 1056/1060 charter, so either he was too young, or he was somehow indisposed, or maybe he really was illegitimate. Whatever the case, he earned his 227-plus manors.
It's possible that Ribald was also a son of Agnes, since the Domesday Book calls him "Ribald, brother of Alan".
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Carol wrote: "Yes I see the inheritance sequence both both called Alan, always odd."Perhaps less odd in translation: their names mean Red Deer and Black Deer.
(In modern Breton idiom, which harkens back to Duke Alan II "the Fox" who comprehensively defeated the Loire Vikings, their names may be rendered as "Red Fox" and "Black Fox".)
Carol wrote: "... As for Alan's death dates I think I might also stick with 1089 but will look at Anselm's letters again before I do. ..."In 1093, Alan donated land to Abbot Baldwin of Bury St Edmunds. Even if this were Alan Niger providing a burial plot for his brother (who is recorded as having been buried "outside the south door of the abbey"), Alan Rufus would still have died in 1093.
It's even possible that both of Anselm's letters to Gunnhild may have been written after his consecration as Archbishop of Canterbury, since Anselm refers to himself as if he already has the authority that would rightly be his only then.
In that case, if I understand correctly that Anselm is referring to a living Alan Rufus in one of the letters, then Alan Rufus was still alive after 25 September 1093, at least 52 days later than Keats-Rohan believes. This would make it plausible for Alan to be at Wilton with Malcolm on 24 August.
I know the Europeans didn't have Hindu-Arabic numerals in the 11th century, but the "1089" figure looks suspiciously like an inversion of digits from "1098".
This may not be as improbable as it sounds, because I know that Plato's report of the estimate for when Atlantis (actually the island of Thera) foundered, as quoted in the middle ages, was out by a factor of 10, even though they didn't have the digit zero in those days either.
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Ask Carol McGrath
Books mentioned in this topic
Fiji (other topics)The Orphan Trilogy (other topics)
I'd like to know how the Normans found their way around the world - because they certainly got about a bit! It's a period I'm not at all familiar with, and I'm really looking forward to finding out more in reading 'The Handfasted Wife' - but could you tell me, from the research you've done in this era, how the Normans navigated? What maps and instruments did they use, and how accurate were they?