Miévillians discussion

Thread for discussion of Part IV of the novel.

Hehe, I wonder if this bit is also some reflection on Moby Dick?

In North Pittman is a particularly striking theology. There, one church memorably teaches that if all the trains were to be still, together, for one moment, if there were no wheels percussing the iron road, all human life would wink instantly out. Because such noises are the snoring, the sleep-breathing of a railsea world, & it is the rails that dream us. We do not dream the rails.

Ha. The 'metafictive' elements just get better and better... now he is comparing the narrative with rails, and he does it quite well:

Every rail demands consideration of every other, & all the branches onto which that other rail might switch. There are those who would issue orders, & would control the passage of all such narratives. They may, from time to time, even be able to assert authority. They will not, however, always be successful. One could consider history an unending brawl between such planners, & others who take vehicles down byways.
So, now. The signal demands the story stop. With diesel wheeze & wheel complaint, our train reverses. With a whack of trainhooks a story-switch is thrown, & our text proceeds again from days ago, from where it had got to.

Btw, "palimpsest" spotted - CM just couldn't resist, could he?

I think we should have a Mievillians "who can spot the most palimpsests" competition...

Traveller wrote: "Btw, "palimpsest" spotted - CM, just couldn't resist, could he?

I think we should have a Mievillians "who can spot the most palimpsests" competition..."

I was sure we'd finally found one novel where Miéville's pet word would not appear, but, sure enough, it stuck out for me right away. I don't even think it was particularly appropriate there, since the layers of rail were not so much obscured, but never mind.

I did really appreciate the qualification of Robalson as "shirty", though. Now there's a word a guy can love!

In an earlier thread, we were mentioning how fun this book is, and it is! Here is proof:

What of the decline & fall of empires? Human empires & godly ones? & what about those gods—That Apt Ohm, Mary Ann the Digger, Railhater Beeching, all that brood? What, above all, about wood?
That is the key mystery. Wood makes trees trees. Wood is also what makes ties—those bars crosswise between railsea rails—ties. A thing can have only one essence. How can this, then, be?
Of all the philosophers’ answers, three stand out as least unlikely.
—Wood & wood are, in fact, appearances notwithstanding, different things.
—Trees are creations of a devil that delights in confusing us.
—Trees are the ghosts of ties, their gnarled & twisted & dreamlike echoes born when parts of the railsea are damaged & destroyed. Transubstantiated matter.
All other suggestions are deeply eccentric. One of these three is most likely true. Which you believe is up to you. :D

I love it! The most fun philosophizing I have ever come across... XD

The TAO aspect has already been pointed out, but now I'm wondering about Mary Ann the Digger and Railhater Beeching.

I'm not reading Railsea, so not following the discussions, but in my daily digest, the word "palimpsest" leaped off the screen. I spotted it numerous times in the first Mieville I read (The Scar) and I think it was in both the others, though not as often.

Is there a theory about his very visible love for this particular word?

Traveller wrote: "Hehe, I wonder if this bit is also some reflection on Moby Dick?

In North Pittman is a particularly striking theology. There, one church memorably teaches that if all the trains were to be still, ..."

This instantly reminded me of something I heard a very long time ago (and I have probably got parts of this wrong) that in Jewish tradition there is a belief that peace will come at the moment that every single person on the face of the earth prays for it at exactly the same time.

Now I googled around and couldn't find anything, so if any of you are familiar with this, please weigh in.

And just before some more (or rather some previous) diversion into narrative, another line caught my eye:

Our minds we salvage from history's rubbish, & they are machines to make chaos into story.

Traveller wrote: "Hehe, I wonder if this bit is also some reflection on Moby Dick?

In North Pittman is a particularly striking theology. There, one church memorably teaches that if all the trains were to be still, ..."

Not particularly, I think. It's a very common theological meme. I don't know Ruth's specific reference, but it's probably true of some Jewish tradition, but it occurs in Buddhism, too, in a form closer to the Railsea myth: if all the prayer wheels are stilled, the world will end. Also Buddhist in form, see Arthur C. Clarke's The Nine Billion Names of God. Edit: I just found my note on this paragraph, in which I highlighted "would wink instantly out" because it reminded me specifically of the Nine Billion Names

Yeah, ever since somebody pointed out the use of "palimpsest" in a previous discussion (Perdido Street Station, I think), I've been unable to miss it. I find it a little distracting. However, I think he used it in an even more unusual way than usual here. Typically, I recall it being as a "blank slate", but this is "diverse layers, or aspects beneath the surface".

Cecily wrote: "the word "palimpsest" leaped off the screen. I spotted it numerous times in the first Mieville I read (The Scar) and I think it was in both the others, though not as often.

Is there a theory about his very visible love for this particular word? .."

Well, you got me wondering as well, and when I found this definition, I think I might have a clue:

pal·imp·sest
/ˈpalimpˌsest/
Noun

A manuscript or piece of writing material on which the original writing has been effaced to make room for later writing.
Something reused or altered but still bearing visible traces of its earlier form.
-----------

Well, after reading a few Mieville novels, have you noticed how Mieville seems to like taking (in typical postmodernist fashion), pieces of established literature and culture and re-kneading them into different shapes and forms with traces of the original still visible? I'm starting to think we should have called this group "Palimpsest", ha ha.

Ruth and Derek, nicely spotted, you're right, I think we are looking at the interconnectedness of things touched on by many religions. And That Apt Ohm is quite prominently named in this book too, so...

The Nine Billion Names of God! An important story in my youth, when I needed to hear an alternative to the standard religious track. Good to be reminded of it. (Digs on the SciFi shelf...should be here somewhere...)

I know where my copy is :)

Found it!! I just had to remember it was not in Asimov's Hugo Award Winners but in my absolute most favorite short story collection 'Other Worlds, Other Gods', edited by Mayo Mohs. As much I love 9,000,000,000 Names of God, I even more strongly recommend 'Vitanuls' by John Brunner, in the same book. Does anyone out there remember that one?

No, I don't. But Brunner is one of my favorite writers, and seriously under-appreciated imo. Shockwave Rider was cyberpunk way before there was cyberpunk.

I marked that phrase about salvaging our minds from history's rubbish, too. As well as a lot of other lines - moreso than in other Mieville works for some reason. Just lots of good things said, either that or I'm more of a young adult than I realized. :) It would be nice to have a thread listing one liners maybe?

Regarding the interconnectedness of all things ... I couldn't help but think of Douglas Adams' great Dirk Gently, holistic detective, creation! In one of the novels, Dirk remarks abut his zen of traveling - find a car that looks like it knows where it's going and follow it, and while you may not always get to where you want to be, you always end up where you should be going, or something like that. So I really thought about that as far as Sham's travels are concerned. He seems to end up where he should be going.

Going to look for The Nine Billion Names of God. Sounds like something I would enjoy. That's the reason I love this group!

Traveller wrote: "Ruth and Derek, nicely spotted, you're right, I think we are looking at the interconnectedness of things touched on by many religions. And That Apt Ohm is quite prominently named in this book too,..."

And "That Apt Ohm" is TAO, "the underlying natural order of the universe".

Derek wrote: "
And "That Apt Ohm" is TAO, "the underlying natural order of the universe". "
Yep, and I'm not sure if he wasn't partly influenced in that by Ursula Le Guin, who, as we know from our Le Guin read, is/was a practicing Taoist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism

That one is quite obvious of course, but I think there's still a wealth of references in this book that I for one, am not picking up simply because I have not read the works or am not familiar with the tropes and/or themes he refers to.


Allen wrote: ". Just lots of good things said, either that or I'm more of a young adult than I realized. :) It would be nice to have a thread listing one liners maybe?..."

We could, I suppose, but how about we combine that with references we picked up to other works of lit and to cultural institutions (like Taoism) in the last discussion thread? We could do a separate thread for those, I suppose, if you want (just say the word and we could do it) but there doesn't seem to be much else to say in the last thread.... http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
or would that make the quotes too mixed up with possible other spoilers- do you want a separate thread?

Sorry, been away from the net for a while. On quotes and references ... I was just curious about what the rest of you marked as well-written or influential passages. I started highlighting in my Kindle and now have this long list! Not sure if it would work too well as a thread ... I'm not committed to the idea. Maybe an overall "favorite Mieville passages" topic would be good, too. Might even call it the Mieville palimpsest :)

If the list for just Railsea from just one person is very long, I'm thinking one for all of Mieville would be totally unwieldy. This comment does not mean I am not in favor of a place for our favorite quotes, but maybe we need to break it up in some way -- book title, topic, keyword...?

We could do both. Since this specific book is absolutely thick as soup with references to other works of fiction and cultural tropes, I think this particular group discussion would be well served by adding whatever references we spotted to the thread I pointed to-- I could even re-name the thread if necessary.

A general Mieville quotes thread sounds good too - coming up...