Small and Independent Press Books discussion
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What determines if a book is self-published?
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"What determines if a book is self-published?Someone else. If you're Virginia Woolf, Lewis Carroll, etc (you know the list) it's not 'self-published', it's Art. If you're Joe Schmoe who has bypassed the mainstream publishing world, it's 'self-published'.
It really doesn't matter how you've done it, why you've done it, or if you've done it well; the fact is if you've done it at all, sooner or later someone will sneer (let's face it, in real life terms it's a slur) "self-published", in a tone as dismissive as two words could ever be.
The secret to fighting this is to do your own thing with aggression and verve. You need to cut your own niche and fight your own corner because no-one else will do it for you - that's the nature of the beast.
As soon as you start thinking of yourself as 'self-published', adopting other people's judgments, you're on the slippery slope to Hell - and you ain't never climbing out of that baby.
There's only one way to not be 'self-published' and it involves holding up one finger to the world. You're published; that's a damn sight more than any of them have done.........
"I've never been able to get a clear definition of what it is that marks a book as self-published."Okay, you're mixing some different concepts here. Self-published, for what it's worth, actually means that you are doing and/or contracting and paying for someone else to do all of the work for placing a book for sale. Under that umbrella is the idea of subsidy and/or vanity press, since you are paying them to do portions of the work for you. However, in self, the ISBN (if there is one) will show you or a company you create as the "publisher," but in subsidy/vanity, the ISBN (if there is one), will show the company you contract to bring your book out for sale with as the "publisher."
Beyond that, everything is either you doing it or you paying someone/trading services with someone to get it done. You're arranging for editing, cover art, formatting, etc.
Strangely enough, if you own a publishing company that publishes a whole stable of other authors, you are not seen as "self-published." Sounds weird, but IF your book goes through the same process as everyone else's books...someone else with the company editing you and so forth...you're not much different than another author with your company. You get the same royalties. The "company" pays the editors and cover artists in the same way. The ISBN is the company's. You get the idea. In indie press, it's not unusual for the publisher to also be an author or a former author.
Yes, you absolutely CAN have an agreement where you pay little or nothing up front and a sliding scale royalty arrangement to facilitate the "publisher" making back whatever their investment in the project is.
"Wouldn't this be a case of self-publishing too, especially if the publisher uncritically accepted everyone who applied to have them publish their book?"
As I said, yes. That would be something in the self/subsidy/vanity range, depending on how it fits together. "Traditional indie publishers" vett the books coming in and take a percentage of them...more when they are new and less, as they establish.
"And where do Print on Demand books fit in?"
They DON'T. Sorry. That is a misnomer that NY came up with, while talking to Publish America...and some others ran with. POD stands for print on demand (a method of printing books using electronic files, as opposed to printing plates, and as few as one at a time) not publish on demand (which was the misnomer and does, in fact, mean self/subsidy/vanity).
POD is used not only by the self/subsidy/vanity crowd but also by royalty-paying indie press and most recently by NY conglomerate publishing, to keep the backlist alive.
"Does an author need to receive a fat up-front pay-off to not be considered a Self-published writer?"
Of course not! Few indie presses give advances, and fewer still give big advances. They are NOT considered self/subsidy/vanity-published authors.
"Any gifted philosophers out there?"
This has little to do with philosophy and everything to do with the simple mechanics for getting the book out for sale.
Brenna
Chancery wrote: ""What determines if a book is self-published?Someone else. If you're Virginia Woolf, Lewis Carroll, etc (you know the list) it's not 'self-published', it's Art. If you're Joe Schmoe who has byp..."
Brenna wrote: ""I've never been able to get a clear definition of what it is that marks a book as self-published."
Okay, you're mixing some different concepts here. Self-published, for what it's worth, actuall..."
Brenna wrote: ""I've never been able to get a clear definition of what it is that marks a book as self-published."
Okay, you're mixing some different concepts here. Self-published, for what it's worth, actuall..."
Brenna wrote: ""I've never been able to get a clear definition of what it is that marks a book as self-published."
Okay, you're mixing some different concepts here. Self-published, for what it's worth, actuall..."
Brenna, Thanks for your thorough and insightful commentary regarding "self-published "etc.I found it very helpful and am certain others have as well.
Incidentally, my inquiry as to whether there were any philosophers out there, was an attempt(obviously feeble)at humor.
Thanks again.
I wasn't certain if you were kidding or not, Joseph. Humor doesn't always translate well online. Grinning... But this is a good discussion. I'm glad you started it.
FWIW, I'm both self-published and with traditional royalty-paying publishers. Both have up sides and both have down. Whichever way you choose to go, it's work but with rewards.
Brenna
Hi everyone, I’m new here. I noticed this discussion and thought I’d see what’s new. Brenna, you made some fantastic comments. I think there will always be a portion of people out there who raise their nose to the idea of self-publishing, but I also believe views are gradually changing for the positive. I just read a couple of interesting articles in The Writer magazine. In the June 2009 issue, Chuck Leddy wrote a piece on e-books and how the current economic state is actually not influencing e-book sales. He states there are some positive ways self-publishing writers can benefit by promoting economical books to eager readers. His article is “The e-book finally hits its stride” on page 8 of The Writer (June 09).
But the most interesting article relevant to this topic is in the July 09 issue of The Writer. Leddy again writes an interesting article with “Self-publishing grows despite hard economic times” (page 8). In this piece, he quotes many industry players who applaud professional, active moves in their career and use self-publishing to their advantage. What’s most interesting, though, is what his article suggests: the publishing industry recognizes there are talented authors out there who use self-publishing or POD services to get their books read, and that it’s a good thing since the traditional publishers are forced to cut back so much in this economic downturn.
Anyways, for what it’s worth, I just wanted to share some positive spins on the self-publishing route. I think it doesn’t matter whether or not an author takes control of their independent success or leaves it all to the big guys; what matters is writing a great book, producing a quality product and strongly marketing it so book number two (and three, and so forth) can also have a chance.
Okay, we're mixing some apples and oranges here. Self-publishing and POD are not synonymous. Nor is self-publishing and e-publishing, but...As far as I can tell, Chuck Leddy is right about the economic downturn not being reflected in e-book sales. Most of the indie/e-publishers I deal with reported 40-50% increases in e-book sales in 2008 over the preceding year. NY e-book sales increased so drastically, two have vowed to put their entire backlists in e-book by the end of 2010.
Now, e-book publishing doesn't equate to self-publishing. There are traditional royalty-paying presses that either do only e-books or both e-books and print (mass produced or POD...and we'll get back to POD). As I said, even NY houses have lines that are only e-book (like Harlequin Spice Briefs) and e-book versions of their print titles in novel-length lines.
And POD doesn't equate to self/subsidy/vanity publishing. That is a misnomer the NY Times came up with, when doing reports on Publish America...and ran with. POD does not mean publish on demand. It means print on demand.
Technically speaking, print on demand is nothing more than a manner of reproducing books from electronic files instead of printing plates, as few as a single copy at a time. Self/subsidy/vanity publishing are not the only users of this advance. In fact, in addition to the royalty-paying indies that use it, NY has discovered the benefits of it. With POD technology, they can keep the backlist alive without offset print runs and warehousing. This makes keeping books in print affordable and gets rid of much of the waste inherent in the NY system of mass print runs.
Hi,Paul Rix here,I,m an author, and a member of one of the other groups on Goodreads. I've got a couple of titles out there, both print on demand and was helped a lot by my 'publisher' Authors on Line, Thanks to them I was able to rewrite my first book to get it to a readable state, I'll be first to admit it is still not well written but together with the story it is definately readable. I have learned a lot since then and I dare put my current thriller beside any of the current crop of 'best sellers'.
As far as the industry is concerned if you are not prepared to subsidise the large retailers by massive discounts and offering sale or return then you are tagged as 'vanity published' and you hear 'oh it's not a proper book, one of those digital things'. Well, I have some news for the 'establishment' those 'digital things' are light years ahead of the mass produced paper backs printed on gloryfied toilet paper as far as product quality is concerned. Also the 'print on demand' publishers will not print any thing submitted to them, at least the good ones don't, and if the story is good enough but the writing isn't, as in the case of my first effort they will help or at least advise on what needs doing.
The great thing about POD is the economics, if you only need one copy then that is all you order, there is no need to have 500 going mouldy in your garage, still less several truck loads sitting unsold in massive wharehouses simply because a large retailer ordered 10times more than they could ever sell, simply to get a lower price per copy, safe in the knowledge they could send them back without penalty.
A really enviornmentaly friendly way to do things!
Of course being independant has it's draw backs in as much as you are virtually excluded from the larger book shops but times are a-changing, it won't be too long before the mass overproduced paper back is as modern as the '78' vinal record. The sooner the better I say, as then it will be up to the book buying public which books become best sellers on merit rather than something chosen more on the grounds of the potential returns to the big retailers . I've had my little rant, thanks for putting up with it, any of you who have managed to get published by what evermeans, I say well done and I,m sure my rant made more sense to you than to people who just talk about writing a book. And finally to the readers a huge thank you, coupled with a request, when you read a book please, please, put up an honest review, what was good and what wasn't and WHY,then authors, like me can learn to write what you want to read! As a foot note I do not write under my own name, so you won't find anything published or written by Paul Rix, if you do, it ain't mine!
I nearly forgot. I made these for a friend who likes to compare and contrast her choices but does it best with databases. It might help someone else.http://brennalyons.home.comcast.net/~...
http://brennalyons.home.comcast.net/~...
Brenna
You'd think that if you had to pay someone to publish your book, you'd be a self published author and that would be that.But what about authors who have a book published with no money paid up front, but a hefty portion taken off each sale? Wouldn't this be a case of self-publishing too, especially if the publisher uncritically accepted everyone who applied to have them publish their book?
And where do Print on Demand books fit in? The decision to print 500 copies rather than 5,000 seems a function of economics and size more than anything else.Aren't these publishers simply very small but "legitimate"publishers. The one's I've heard about are usually quite selective and chose to POD only about 3% of all books submitted. That type of POD doesn't seem at all to be a matter of SelF-publishing. Does an author need to receive a fat up-front pay-off to not be considered a Self-published writer?
I'm confused. I thought I graduated from Grad school a long time ago and was done with trying to establish how many angels could fit on the head of a pin.
Any gifted philosophers out there?
Thanks. I must be a very bored man.