Goodreads Ireland discussion

This is the spoiler for our July monthly read, TransAtlantic by Colum McCann.

I guess I will be the first to take the plunge and comment on TransAtlantic. I think I will have to wait to hear what you Irish folks, especially those who live in the North, think about the George Mitchell segment. I have to say I was very impressed. A friend of mine didn't think that section was strong enough but I disagree. Years back when I was much younger I worked with a group who put on a locally organized peace conference for Northern Ireland at the height of the Troubles in Amherst MA. The primary organizer was Padraig O'Malley who is now the Joseph Moakley Professor of Peace and Reconciliation, John W. McCormack Graduate School of Policy and Global Studies at University of Massachusetts Boston. He is also the author of Biting at the Grave: The Irish Hunger Strikes and the Politics of Despair and The Uncivil Wars: Ireland Today. This experience where I met John Hume, UDA members and others gave me an appreciation for the delicacy of Mitchell's task in guiding the 1998 peace talks. I thought McCann did a superb job of portraying the man and the event.

Allan - Thanks for your insights, as always. Being a New Englander, I am also proud of Mitchell as exemplifying the practicality people from that part of the country are so proud of (SIC - I know prepositions shouldn't be at the end of sentences). I will have to check out McKitridge's book.

I don't remember Mitchell very well when he was active in Washington though his name was familiar. I think that was around the time I moved down here. I think that TransAtlantic may highlight that this was one Clinton initiative that worked out. He tried with Israel and Palestine but that remains a conundrum.

I just finished it at the weekend. It feels to me like one of those books that I won't be quite sure what I thought of it, until I find myself thinking back on the different characters. I enjoyed most of it, and the high quality of the writing was sustained throughout.

But, I did find my interest waning a lot towards the end. Dare I say, I was getting a bit bored with the format, or the characters, I'm not sure which.

I think it was mostly during Emily and Lottie's transatlantic crossing that I was losing interest but I perked up when I got to the final story of Hannah. It might have been the switch to a first person narrative, or maybe I just warmed to the nice new characters at the end. Not sure, but I was glad to finish it on an enjoyable note. And there seemed to be an interesting bookend parallel between Douglas and the professor who opens the letter.

- -

I just had a look through the goodreads reviews and there a lot of 5 stars and then a lot of comments like this which i tend to agree with :

"I think something got lost her in the broad historical sweep. I might have been happy to read a novel focused on any one or two of these characters, but as they multiplied and failed to return, I felt frustrated and lost interest somewhat. The word that springs to mind here is disparate. I get what McCann is trying to achieve here but there's nothing to get your teeth into in terms of plot or characters, or even the prose. What I'm left with is some spare, beautiful writing and an elaborate structure that seems like less than the sum of its parts."

- -

In short, a great book, and wonderful writing, but my interest really dipped in parts

The only other book of McCann’s I’ve read is Let the Great World Spin, and it’s one of my favorites.

I have no legitimate criticism of Transatlantic. Characters come alive on the page. The settings surround the reader. McCann’s ethereal prose is a joy. I gave it a four-star rating.

However, it's becoming difficult for me to like books with so much unrelenting sadness.

At least Georgie didn’t die.

Patricia wrote: "The only other book of McCann’s I’ve read is Let the Great World Spin, and it’s one of my favorites.

I have no legitimate criticism of Transatlantic. Characters come alive on the page. The settin..."

You called this a book with "unrelenting sadness". We had a dispute recently in our book group that reads contemporary Irish literature. I am labeling it a dispute rather than a debate because it was a long rant from one of the new members who complained she was sick of reading depressing books. Well as in any book group, people are free not to read a book or to leave the group. This person however seems intent on changing the focus of the group. Who have we read that she deems so depressing? John Banville, Sean O'Reilly (this provoked the rant), John Boyne, Christine Dwyer Hickey. Perhaps contemporary Irish literature is depressing. Perhaps most contemporary literature is depressing, or any literary book that examines life is.

I didn't find the Sadness to be unrelenting, but I have to admit it was a darker version of the human experience, but still relatable and realistic, I thought.

There were times and instances of real happiness, with Lottie living what mostly appeared to be a content and happy life.

I had a problem with Emily's story. It was mostly down to her relationship with her editor and a reluctance to publish her work as an investigative journalist. The whole thing seemed very cliched, but I may have found it more credible if I was unaware of the existence of Nelly By; the first person to to travel around the world in under eighty days and one of the most admired journalists of her day, which would have slightly preceded Emily's era.

I enjoyed Hannah's story. There was something quite familiar in her. She put me in mind of the widows who lived in my area as I grew up. They all had a quiet dignity about them and a real reluctance to ask for help that went any further than asking a local kid to go to the shops.

I don't think it's productive to rant, but I think people should feel free to express their feelings, however unpopular, in a discussion group.

It's true that many literary books are depressing. The Silver Linings Playbook had many heart-clutching moments, but it also had many funny and uplifting ones, too. Some other novels in that category are Independence Day, The Corrections, A Visit from the Goon Squad, Last Night at the Lobster, Swamplandia! and Sherman Alexie's books.

I appreciate the opportunity to read contemporary literature and to continue participating in the discussions, whether I find the books depressing or not.

The reading selections are voted on, so there's little chance I could change the focus of the group to humor and whimsy, even if I wanted to.

Patricia wrote: "I don't think it's productive to rant, but I think people should feel free to express their feelings, however unpopular, in a discussion group.

It's true that many literary books are depressing. ..."

I fell I should add every Sebastian Barry book I've ever read to your list, Patricia.

It always seemed to me that people are far more interested in reading about the darker side of life as we take the everyday goodness of life granted. Even the the most uplifting books I read are nothing more than happy endings prefaced by a series of unfortunate events. We like to be reminded that everything passes and the good times will come back.

I just finished the Fredrick Douglass chapter and it's heartbreaking. I don't know how human beings do these things to others. The story about the slave girl and the barrel broke my heart. Who would even think of that as a punishment? And to make the slave roll the barrel themselves? What is the purpose of that? I have heard in the older days people would make their kids go out and cut the tree limb they were going to get hit with. Awful.
I had no idea that Ireland had plenty of food during the potato blight. It was just shipped out to other places in the Empire. I thought all the food had been destroyed. People living in underground houses. I hope I make it through this book. I will now try to sleep with these horrific images in my mind.

Stick with it, Susan. It's not a cheerful book, by any means but I think you've just read through possibly the bleakest section.

The famine was so destructive because the peasant farmers grew their own food which was predominantly potatoes, so when the blight came it was the food of the poor classes that was ruined.

That makes sense. I just don't understand the concept of sending food to other countries when your own people are starving to death. Man's inhumanity to each other takes my breath away.
I loved the first section about the pilots. It takes a special breed of person to do what they did. I just loved that they took ham sandwiches with them. I've seen the Wright Brothers plane at the Smithsonian and you wouldn't get me into it. Such bravery and courage.
It reminded me of my grandfather. In WWI he was on the airplane crew that serviced Jimmy Doolittle's planes. He lived a remarkable life. At 12 he came west in a covered wagon and then ended up working on an airplane. The changes he saw.
The whole book is so beautifully written.

I really liked the Brown/Alcock section, too, but I preferred the Douglas section, for all of its darkness. There was a reluctance to interfere in the famine by the British government as a large number of the Tories and almost the entire opposition, the Whigs, believed it would devastate free market trade, and if left alone the markets would correct themselves and prices would adjust making food more affordable. We now know how wrong that is having seen how expensive food becomes in times in dire times.

Btw, I like the sound of your grandfather. He must have been an incredibly interesting man.

He was a wonderful man and a great grandfather. He always said he was Scots Irish and that's what made him loose his temper but we never saw that.

Irish, Scots and Scots-Irish were never particularly angry. They all just happened to go to the US at time when they had things to be angry about.

Well, he decided that's what made him angry. He was probably just trying to be funny. I never saw him angry but my mom told me a few stories that made me wonder. by the way, he wasn't newly emigrated. His family traces back to the 1700's in Kentucky.

Now that's what I call 'roots.'

I haven't finished the book yet, but I have finished the section on George Mitchell. I remember glancing at some newspaper reviews, and one criticism was that section of the book. I'm not sure why the critics thought it was "weaker" than the rest. For everyone who's gotten that far or finished the book, what did you think of that section?

I was impressed by McCann's handling of the Mitchell section. He had to work in not just the intricacies of Peace Process but a lot of the background, too. It moved along nicely while giving a strong impression of Mitchell as a man.

I had no idea that that section was received badly and I can't understand why.

Declan wrote: "I was impressed by McCann's handling of the Mitchell section. He had to work in not just the intricacies of Peace Process but a lot of the background, too. It moved along nicely while giving a stro..."

I think that's one (of several) drawbacks of reading a review before one's read the book. Most of the time I avoid reading a review if I know I want to read the book (or I'll only skim it) but this time, my curiosity got the best of me. I really enjoyed the section with George Mitchell, and if anything, it only made me want to read a history of the Good Friday agreement. I knew about it when it occurred, but I don't have the detailed knowledge of how they actually got the agreement done. I was surprised at first that the actual negotiations were background in the novel, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized it would likely have been too complicated to included in the novel. I'm in agreement with you, Declan. After reading that section, I was puzzled why a critic found it weak.

George Mitchell has always been very well-respected--a rarity in politics. He's had an extraordinary career. Everything from serving as the Senate majority leader to his part in the peace process, even to overseeing a huge investigation on the use of illegal drugs in Major League Baseball. Actually...I probably misspoke. I don't think he was well-respected by everyone. If my memory serves me correctly, conservative groups didn't like him very much at all; he was seen as far too liberal :) I'm showing my bias!

I just finished the George Mitchell section and loved it. I had a greater understanding due to "The Fall" and Allan's explanation of it. They talked about the Shankill neighborhood where Jimmy Olson lived. I wouldn't have appreciated that without the other discussion. It was awful that I didn't know who Ahern was and had to look him up. My apologies.
I don't know about the names. I didn't know you could tell anything from them. I just thought they were names. Were they Protestant and Catholic? Northern and Southern? English and Irish? Please explain, Allan.
It really brought home how delicate the process was when they visited Gerald's sister and he was relieved that her husband was killed in the oil fields and not in the conflicts.
It goes to show you why I am not a politician. I would go crazy worrying about commas and periods. I would be going, "Are you serious? That's what you're worried about?" I don't have a diplomatic bone in my body. It used to worry my parents a great deal.
As to your question about Mitchell being the number 2 important man in Washington in the Clinton administration, I just don't know. He was not in the front and I barely heard of him. He must have been one of the important backroom guys and not the flashy kind. That's what I got out of the book too. He didn't seem to like the limelight. Besides Clinton was flashy enough for everybody.

Susan wrote: "I just finished the George Mitchell section and loved it. I had a greater understanding due to "The Fall" and Allan's explanation of it. They talked about the Shankill neighborhood where Jimmy Olso..."

I loved the little details McCann included, such as Mitchell's fondness for McVitie's digestives, and his craving for a shower when they were spending hours negotiating.

I loved the shower scene too. He just couldn't shake the idea there was a shower and someone had to track it down. I know how he felt. Sometimes nothing else seems as good as a shower.
BTW, thanks for reminding me that he chaired the investigation into the baseball drug problem. I had forgotten.

Mitchell oversaw the baseball drugs investigation. I didn't know that. I'm doubly impressed. I'd say he fell afoul of some die-hard sports fans, never mind conservatives.

@Cathleen. If you want to know more about the lead-up to the Good Friday Agreement there is an excellent book called Endgame In Ireland. I think you might like it too, Susan.

It was based on a TV documentary of the same name. I know it was aired in the US by PBS, so you guys might be able to find it. I found one whole episode on YouTube but it was only episode four. Not a good place to start. If you guys can't find it maybe Allan can? He's quite good at that.

I've mostly been avoiding this thread, since I'm only halfway through the book. Both the book and the series sound excellent though! What other books would people recommend about Irish history?

Thank you for explaining the names. I never would have caught the significance of that nor did I know the names had two spellings like Liam/Billy. Liam is very popular right now and i bet no one knows its Irish for Billy. I think it's because everyone likes Liam Neeson.
It's hard for me to really understand the religious division. All of churches in town get together every 3 months for a big picnic or a community sing. The only religions you really talk about are weird ones like Scientology where they believe aliens landed, etc. John Travolta made a horrible movie about his church's beliefs. At my Bible class, we've had a Jewish rabbi, a Suffi priest and a pagan priest speak. We have a Wiccan coming up.
I did go back and read the passage with the whiskey mention and it did explain it if you knew the situation. I just didn't get it the first time through. About the schools, are they all parochial or do you have public schools everyone goes to?

So it's 1 am and I am trying to watch Craig Ferguson but thanks to Allan, I am just thinking about this darn book. I sounded so insufferable about religion that I mentally slapped myself. It's not like America doesn't have real troubles with race and gun control. I was thinking about the names thing and we have a similar situation here. Hispanic names are often apparent. If you hear names like LaWanda or Tyrese, you think black. If you hear John or Susan, you think white. If you hear North West or Blue Ivy, you think stupid celebrity names. We may not do it consciously but you do make assumptions. Like if I hear Declan or Liam, I think Irish. We all do those things. The thing I like best about you and it irritates me is that you make me think. Damn you. It's hot. I should be sitting in an air conditioned room with a icebag on my neck (thanks for the idea, Declan) and reading trash. :)
On a different thread (I have no idea where) you were discussing "The Sons" for our next read. I would just like to suggest we postpone it for a couple of months. With recently released books, they are generally in hardback and difficult to get at the libraries. I noticed someone said they were number 78 on the waiting list for "Transatlantic." I just think we should try to keep it accessible for everyone and that includes thinking about budgets. That's my two cents. Take it or leave it.

Allan wrote: "Susan. Names are a big thing in NI-tell someone your christian name and it'll not take someone who wants to know long to work out the community from which you come.

To elaborate, 'Protestant' name..."

Allan, thanks for that explanation. I never would have picked up on McCann's choice of first names. I didn't think we categorized names so specifically, but then I remembered a funny incident that happened to me when I was just starting as a university student. A group of us were introducing ourselves. As part of the conversation, we were sharing if we had siblings, etc. I mentioned that I had four (Mary, Johnny, Billy, and Patrick) and one kid looked at me and said, "Are you sure you don't have a brother named 'Jesus,' in there, too?"

Allan wrote: "Declan-thanks for the input-I'd never heard of that book, but I've just bought it for a penny on Amazon! Both journalists who wrote it are very well respected-indeed it was another of David McKitte..."

Thanks, Declan and Allan, for the book and dvd recommendations. I'll look for them.

Declan wrote: "Patricia wrote: "I don't think it's productive to rant, but I think people should feel free to express their feelings, however unpopular, in a discussion group.

It's true that many literary books..."

I am a big fan of Sebastian Barry, especially after seeing him in person. His books are all linked in that they are about the same family. But they are not cheerful, at all.
I do think there is contemporary Irish fiction that is at times mind blowingly funny - Roddy Doyle's series The Barrytown Trilogy. A lesser known writer Julian Gough, who lives in Berlin because it's cheaper than Dublin, is nuts! He came to Washington DC when won us over. I haven't finished Paul Murray's Skippy Dies - but it is another crazy book. These are a different kind of literary writing.

Allan wrote: "One extra link with abridged films about the troubles might be an easier way to understand the conflict-again I'll be watching these I think!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/fro......"

I just ordered the book The Endgame in Ireland as well. I'll order Making Sense of the Troubles next time I do a Kenny's order. I just made one this week so I am waiting:)

Speaking of names reminds me of one of my favorite scenes in the film about The Troubles titled An Everlasting Piece - a comedy about two toupee salesmen is Belfast - one Catholic and one Protestant. The first day at his new job as a barber in a mental hospital, Colm meets several men working in the office. One by one they are introduced and one and all are named Billy. I especially love the (East?) Belfast pronunciation of the name which sounds like "Belly" to American ears. The popularity of this name (thanks to King Billy, William of Orange) explains why many in the Protestant community were over the moon when Charles and Diana's first son was named William.

Allan, thank you for the explanation of the school system. I hate to continue to show my ignornace but I don't know what RE and RI is. What kind of religion is taught in school? Is it the history or the basic tenets? Are you allowed to pray in school? Is creatism taught? So sorry to be so nosy but it's interesting to me. In one of our local colleges, a woman wore a cross necklace to an event and an administrator asked her to remove it so no one would be uncomfortable. Well, there was a big outcry about this and the dministrator was fired. A lawsuit (America's favorite pasttime) is being filed.

It wasn't entirely off topic, Allan. It would explain the tepid approach of the widowers who tried to court Emily which warmed considerably when they found out she was in fact a protestant.

Allan wrote: "I've seen you mention that film a few times, Barbara, so I've bitten the bullet and ordered it there from Amazon-I'll look forward to watching it next week!

If you do get the 'Making Sense' book, ..."

I definitely plan to get the 2012 update of the Making Sense. Although there are several excellent films about the Troubles, I show my students An Everlasting Piece because it is a comedy. Who can resist Billy Connolly as an evangelical preacher? Also the scene of George, the Protestant half of the duo, reading his poems at a gathering. The film is the exception to the rule in my course, as I insist on showing Irish made films with Irish actors. So no Ryan's Daughter or even Michael Collins (mostly because the story is so complicated and Julia Roberts is in it).
This discussion may be a bit off topic, but readers of TransAtlantic may want to learn more about Northern Ireland and the Troubles.

There were a lot of factual errors in Michael Collins, too. Ned Broy wasn't killed by The Cairo Gang. He went on reach his eighties and he was a senior officer in the newly formed Gardai.

Allan wrote: "I do think, Cathleen, that maybe some people possibly found the detail re the peace process too comprehensive in the context of the rest of the narrative-there's a lot of names / info in there for..."

Allan- I just had to comment on the Jamieson's/Bushmills distinction. I wonder if it's an "American" thing that McCann picked up over here. I recall for years that people I knew made this distinction and some avoided Bushmills. But after visiting the Bushmill's distillery which was a terrific tour (and why I was so disappointed in the Guinness tour which is a lot of money for nothing) and have developed a taste for the whiskey.

Allan wrote: "Susan. Names are a big thing in NI-tell someone your christian name and it'll not take someone who wants to know long to work out the community from which you come.

To elaborate, 'Protestant' name..."

I just finished Transatlantic. I'm going to miss that book. I went to the library today--to escape the 101 degree heat, and they had David Park's The Truth Commissioner, so I checked that out. Even though I have several books "on deck," I have a month before I have to return the book. I remember you writing/speaking about how much you liked that novel, Allan.

I love that story of your great uncle and his wife, Allan. It's heart warming to see that they stayed together throughout the entire troubles.

Allan, I am so happy you are going to Bushmills. I love when you take field trips for us. I really think you and Declan should be doing more traveling and posting lovely pictures of Ireland for those of us roasting in the heat. Cathleen's at 101 and I'm at 103.
I did the Guiness tour in Dublin, Barbara, and found it to be a huge money trap. I did go to the Foynes Aircraft Museum where Irish coffee started and loved that. It was just so cosy and cute.

I want to do more travelling, Susan, and when I do I'll be sure to post some pics and recommendations to the group.

So, I read the Emily and Lottie chapter and it was lovely. I mean just lovely. It just tied so many things. The thing is reading this with you guys have added so much dimension. The question the groom's father asked about Lily's religion would have just slid right by me without your guys' background. I am curious about one thing. I know. I am always asking questions. In the next chapter Lottie and her grandson are stopped by the police. She wonders how likely it would be that they were down at the Falls or Shankill? Is the TV show we watched "The Falls" named after a neighborhood?

Another book for my "to-read" pile - The Truth Commissioner. I see this is by the author of The Light of Amsterdam so I'll read that first. This is great as I now have another author that our book group can consider reading as he is a contemporary Irish writer.

Declan wrote: "There were a lot of factual errors in Michael Collins, too. Ned Broy wasn't killed by The Cairo Gang. He went on reach his eighties and he was a senior officer in the newly formed Gardai."

Our knowledge of history is scant enough, and then films change it to suit the story. Although this is directed by Neil Jordan and stars Liam Neeson, the story of Collins is contentious to this day, at least in some quarters. And I really object to the "need" to cast big name American actors to bring in people, like Julia Roberts.
sorry for going off on a tangent, but I restrained my desire to rant.

Rant away, Barabara. I think you earned it.

Allan wrote: "Susan-I hope you managed to get to sleep eventually last night, what with the heat and the book in your head!

Re names-Liam and Billy are both derivatives of William-the whole twelfth day celebrat..."


Allan - this is definitely a tangent, but you mentioned names in NI, for example Billy and Liam. It reminds me of one of my favorite scenes in the film Good Will Hunting (the one that won Matt Damen and Ben Afflick an Oscar for best screenplay). Matt Damon (Will) tells Minnie Driver (Skylar) he has 12 brothers named Marky, Ricky, Danny, Terry, Mikey, Davey, Timmy, Tommy, Joey, Robby, Johnny, and Brian. my link text
In South Boston, and other working class neighborhoods in the city, most men's names have a -y added, whether the guy wants it or not. Once a friend's husband was stopped by the cops in Boston for a traffic violation. He's from San Francisco, and goes by Bob. The cop kept calling him "Bobby" emphatically, to remind Bob that in Boston he was Bobby. A few names like Kevin, and Brian (in the list) don't have a -y added. Though you often hear Kev and Bri. I am sure somewhere some linguist has figured out the naming rules in Boston neighborhoods and written a treatise on the topic.

Susan wrote: "Allan, I am so happy you are going to Bushmills. I love when you take field trips for us. I really think you and Declan should be doing more traveling and posting lovely pictures of Ireland for tho..."

Susan - I love the term "money trap" - that's very accurate. When I went on the tour in 1998, I was taken in by the store and all the Guinness merchandise. There weren't other outlets at the time though now you find them everywhere in Dublin even in the airport.
Speaking of great museums and the like, one of my favorites is The Tower Museum in Derry. It is an absolute gem of a place and has won awards. When I was there, I was amazed at the absolute dedication of the staff and their apparent love of the place. When something on one of the exhibits stopped working, 2 guys immediately got to work on it and fixed it. The docents didn't just parrot memorized scripts either. Their history of the Troubles in Derry is balanced but poignant. The history is till very raw there. I amazed at how tiny Derry is. I was there once fleetingly in the 70's, passing through and we were encouraged not to linger.
At the Smithsonian Folklife Festival in 2007, and for 4 months leading up to it, there were scores of events - readings, plays, visiting writers, lectures - all focused on Northern Ireland. One group at the Folklife Festival were The Bogside Artists my link text . I visited their gallery and saw the murals in 2009.
Smithsonian magazine published a good article that looks at NI ten years after the Good Friday Agreements. Be sure to check out the photo gallerys with the article including the one of Belfast.

my link text
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-...#

Allan wrote: "Barbara-since you had mentioned the film a couple of times, we watched Good Will Hunting last night on DVD-it's been so long since I've watched it, and it's amazing to see how much Matt Damon and B..."

The "r" is not always missing - that's a mistake actors make when trying to imitate it. In fact, Boston and New England accents seem to be among the most difficult to imitate. But they also vary from neighborhood to neighborhood, very subtly. And most people, including people in the city, are unaware that there is an African American Boston accent - actually a "Roxbury" accent. Yes, Boston and NY accents can sound similar, but the Boston accent has softer edges. It's probably why Donny Walberg, from Boston, "passes" in the NY drama "Blue Bloods". Another interesting feature is that words sometimes gain extra syllables and I think that this may come from some Irish pronunciations. For example, the word 'basement' which is normally 2 syllables, is pronounced bas-e-ment (as in the now gone Filene's Basement).
Some of the better actor's accents are Leonardo DiCaprio in'The Departed', Sean Penn in "Mystic River'. Some of the worse are Laura Linney's in Mystic River and Robin Williams in Good Will Hunting.
Finally, in my 20's I knew quite a few guys like the characters in Good Will Hunting.

I can only assume that the extra syllables in the Boston accent are a result of the Irish influence on it.

There are two types of people in Ireland: Those who pronounce the U in film, and those who don't.

Personally, I love a good fillum.

There are some incredible photos in the mural link, Barbara. I must make it my business to visit Derry and do the mural tour. If I do, I'll post pics.