Heathens, Pagans and Witches discussion

I've been doing a bit of roaming lately and have been reading about the Christian concept of the Rapture. Besides the fact that I have many issues with the psychology behind the idea, and its effect on morale in a time of increasing world problems, I am also very interested in whether other religions and faiths have such doomsday scenarios.

Does it exist in Hinduism? Buddhism? Other world mythologies? Do the North American Indians speak of it? I know that Edgar Cayce claimed psychic predictions of such an event but I believe his strong Christian views and standing, predisposed him to such ideas. It seems to me to be a predominately Judaic Christian concept?

Ragnarok...aye, OK it's not exactly the same...but the whole twilight of the gods end of the world thing is fairly epic.

Holy crap that's a cheery tale, isn't it? Gotterdammerung, the end of the cosmos as well as Earth. I'm putting a link in here in case others are interested too.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/r/ra...

One of the books I'm reading now states that the Norse, Indian, Greek and Roman Pantheons all originated in Sumer. So too the myths. I'm off to investigate further, to see if I can find the equivalent scenarios...

More links and a book by "an associate professor of English and director of the folklore program, who is also a eschatologist—a person who studies “the last things” and beliefs about the end times."

Daniel Wojcik The End of the World as We Know It: Faith, Fatalism, and Apocalypse in America

“There is a relationship between apocalyptic speculation and times when people feel societal traditions are being abandoned or destroyed, or when there is an increased sense of suffering or threat in the world,” he said. “From a believer’s perspective, an apocalypse offers the promise of a better world and the end of something terrible.” http://cascade.uoregon.edu/fall2012/f...


"The Abrahamic faiths maintain a linear cosmology, with end time scenarios containing themes of transformation and redemption. In Judaism, the term "end of days" is a reference to the Messianic Age, and includes an in-gathering of the exiled diaspora, the coming of the mashiach, olam haba, and resurrection of the Tsadikim. In Christianity, end time is depicted as a time of tribulation that precedes the second coming of Christ, who will face the emergence of the Antichrist and usher in the Kingdom of God. In Islam, the Yawm al-Qiyāmah or Yawm ad-Din, the Day of Judgement, is preceded by the appearance of the Mahdi atop a white stallion. With the help of Isa, Mahdi will then triumph over Masih ad-Dajjal.

The non-Abrahamic faiths have more cyclical eschatologies regarding end time, characterized by decay, redemption and rebirth. In Hinduism, end time is foretold as when Kalki, the final incarnation of Vishnu, descends atop a white horse and bring an end to the current Kali Yuga. In Buddhism, the Buddha predicted that his teachings would be forgotten after 5,000 years, followed by turmoil. A bodhisattva named Maitreya will appear and rediscover the teaching of dharma. The ultimate destruction of the world will then come through seven suns." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist...
"In other traditions, such as Zen, a somewhat utilitarian view is taken. The notion often exists that within each moment in time, both birth and death are manifest. As the individual "dies" from moment to moment, they are equally "reborn" in each successive moment, in what one perceives as an ongoing cycle. Thus the practitioner's focus is shifted from considerations regarding an imagined future endpoint, to mindfulness in the present moment. In this case, the worldview is taken as a functional tool for awakening the practitioner to reality as it exists, right now."

And Eschatology in general: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschatology

Still searching, but I have to wade through unimaginable realms of doomsday websites, all sprouting their own version of 'Beam me up, Scotty.'

Another book: When Prophecy Fails

Apocalypticism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyp...

A superstitious Isaac Newton: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Ne...

Also, as a bit of humour is in order: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCpjgl...

Now I'm off to read the first book I linked: The End of the World as We know it. Hopefully we'll all still be here when I get back. :)

Yep. You're right O.B.

More books. More links.
Millennarianism:
In general: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millenar...
In colonial societies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millenna...
Cargo cults: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult
Ghost Dance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Dance

Books:
The Ghost-Dance Religion and Wounded Knee

Pursuit of the Millennium: Revolutionary Millenarians and Mystical Anarchists of the Middle Ages

And The End of the World as We Know It: Faith, Fatalism, and Apocalypse in America is fascinating. Hard to put down.

You have been busy Gina - thanks for the links!

Anyone else now got the REM song stuck in their head?

Interesting discussion, Gina. Ragnarok was the first thing that came to my mind, though I don't know all that much about it. Out of my pantheon so to speak. :-)

The ancient Egyptians have something similar, though the best way I could describe it is more cyclical in nature. Their religion much focuses on the dynamic between order and chaos--essentially where Ra goes each night, to fight the forces of chaos. However there is a big distinction between chaos and the end of the world. There's a passage I need to seek out to get this exactly right, however there is a part of the Osiris myth that sorta kinda has him and Amun folding in upon themselves and imploding, and then the whole cycle starts all over again, with the cosmic egg. Complicated stuff, and what we understand of it keeps changing. I'll see if I can dig out more material on this. They're references that aren't made often, as many prefer to focus on the nightly triumph of order over chaos. Or as some prefer, good over evil. The ancient ones were not as simplistic as the latter.

Nell wrote: "You have been busy Gina - thanks for the links!"

I get bees in my bonnet and just have to get them out. Myth busting bees. Hence the flurry of searching. :)

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Anyone else now got the REM song stuck in their head?"

Yep. Been humming it since the bees flew in. :)

Sara wrote: "Interesting discussion, Gina. Ragnarok was the first thing that came to my mind, though I don't know all that much about it. Out of my pantheon so to speak. :-)
The ancient Egyptians have som..."

I'd be really interested to find out more! The Osiris/Amun imploding sounds like the Big Crunch. It is funny how the ideas became more simplistic over time. I suppose it's the Chinese whispers part to myths and religions.

I'm finding the history of our fatalistic views to be amazing. Quite uplifting too, as it's a rational look at irrational ideas. The figures--in terms of how many people today believe in a Rapture like event-- are shocking. I feel for the younger ones most as it's very undermining. Very divisive too. I'm stopping to take notes along the way. I really recommend this book!

Two more books to add to the thread:
Apocalypse: On the Psychology of Fundamentalism in America and The Fundamentalist Mindset: Psychological Perspectives on Religion, Violence, and History by Charles B. Strozier.
Also, did you know that bleached hair and hoop earrings were a sign of End Times? Fascinating. Going out to buy a pair tomorrow.

Little wrote: "Nell wrote: "You have been busy Gina - thanks for the links!"

I get bees in my bonnet and just have to get them out. Myth busting bees. Hence the flurry of searching. :)

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "An..."

Hi Gina,

I'm not sure I have the right book up here in Maine, however I'll see what I can come up with. Yes, it always sounded a little like the Big Bang theory to me. I've personally always loved the "cosmic egg" idea.

Little wrote: "Two more books to add to the thread:
Apocalypse: On the Psychology of Fundamentalism in America and The Fundamentalist Mindset: Psychological Perspectives on Religion, Violence, and History by Cha..."

LOL, how bleached? This isn't the thread for this, better suited to the Green group, however, to me, it is the apocalyptic mindset of the fundamentalists of all stripes that allows for the pillaging of Gaia's resources. Haven't we had enough end of the world predictions that, um, haven't come true for humans to realize that this planet is insofar as we know, the only place there is where we can live?

My thoughts exactly Sara! I have recently raised this in the Green group.

"Human efforts to improve the world are considered not only useless but possibly satanic, and believers are freed from moral obligations to save it from annihilation because the world's problems and ultimate destruction are part of the divine plan."

'The End of the World as We Know It'. Wojcik.

Two more books. Both by Paul S. Boyer
When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture
and By the Bomb's Early Light. The second is about secular fatalism.

Little wrote: "My thoughts exactly Sara! I have recently raised this in the Green group.

"Human efforts to improve the world are considered not only useless but possibly satanic, and believers are freed from mo..."

I added a comment in the Green group as well, Gina. This brand of craziness terrifies me. I spend a great deal of my time working to counter it from an environmental point of view.

Yes, the more I read about it, the more I realise that this is of major concern. The US is still a big player on the world stage. This isn't just recalcitrance, but an active longing for destruction, (and through it, the subsequent new world). Such religious beliefs are built into the very history, and therefore social and political structure of the US.

We have a few Doomsday lovers here too, but they tend to stick out, and there's nothing Australians love more than having a laugh at crackpots. That said, my interest in this issue was sparked because I recently encountered someone who believes this apocalyptic scenario is upon us, and I was assured that me and mine, were going to be Raptured too. (Despite the fact that I am a sin filled Pagan :D).

That the idea didn't delight me is an understatement. Exclusivity and a willingness to see countless suffering, lies at the heart of this belief. It's believe or die a gruesome death, while we higher beings watch from the heavens/spaceship/hollow moon/hollow earth...

Also they didn't know me very well as their description of 'The Kingdom', with it's gyms and cafeterias and no partying until late into the night, sounded like hell to me. I'll stand on the stricken Earth, with a cocktail in one hand, a final cigarette in the other, surrounded by my ducks, dogs and chooks, awaiting my incineration, while I wave goodbye to the poor sods being beamed up. :D

:-). I'm reminded that Australia (yes, I know it isn't New Zealand) was the last remaining refuge in the post nuclear apocalytic landscape of "On The Beach" which is one of my all time favourite movies.

We have far too many of these sorts here in the States. It's why I stay in the Northeast, which is mostly sane. I've got to get the name of it--a friend of mine recently read a book that talked about the US eventually breaking apart a la the Soviet Union because of such radical differences in perspective. I don't know if that would help or hurt.

Sara wrote: ":-). I'm reminded that Australia (yes, I know it isn't New Zealand) was the last remaining refuge in the post nuclear apocalytic landscape of "On The Beach" which is one of my all time favourite m..."

In Tasmania there is sometimes talk of sinking the ferry that links us to the mainland. :) It feels a world apart from the great northern island.

I have noticed that the southern states of the US tend to harbour more extreme religious groups. I'm not sure whether a divided US would be worse, or possibly better. I do think its days as a super power are numbered. China will be one of the new forces to be reckoned with, possibly India too?

Indeed, the South and the West are home to more extreme religious groups than the rest of the country. The book to which I was referring is called "American Nations", written by Colin Woodard. It identifies the different regions of the US, and their predominant traits, and advances the thesis that the more the regions pull apart religiously and politically, the more likely it is that the US faces the same fate as the old Soviet Union. I haven't read it, however my friend who did speaks very highly of it.

If only there were a way to sink a ferry linking me to the South. . . . Every time the governor of Texas, that great crackpot Rick Perry, talks about seceding because of the Affordable Health Care Act or some other federal program he dislikes, I say, let him go, let them all go. LOL, who says I don't have an opinionated bone in my body?

Sara wrote: "Indeed, the South and the West are home to more extreme religious groups than the rest of the country. The book to which I was referring is called "American Nations", written by Colin Woodard. It..."

Found it. Now if GR would just stop being over capacity I might be able to add it...

I feel for you! We have Pauline Hanson, of the 'Please explain?', whites only nation, anti immigration, pro fish and chips and all things ignorant. Oh, we also have Fred Nile--such a lovely fellow! Wish they'd beam him up! In fact they can beam them all up and we'd be better off for it.

Jaq wrote: "Lots of book recommendations already so I have little to add, but I did a lot of study of comparative religion as a teenager. Basically the Rapture is a fairly modern idea based on American Fundame..."

I think you are right Jaq, there is some core of truth in geological events that feature in various myths and faiths. I'm reading a couple of books on apocalyptic thinking at the moment, and one, rather out there book on Sumer and its pantheon. The 12th Planet by Zecharia Sitchin. He states that all the other world pantheons and myths are based on the Sumerian ones. That's why the flood myth is across the board. However, I'm pretty sure Egypt has now been 'proven' to be the earlier civilzation? And the author also thinks the first 'Gods' were actually aliens...

I'm no expert on Sumer, that's for sure, though I do know a thing or two about Ancient Egypt. The early dynastic period began approximately 3050 BC, and is considered to be contemporary to Sumerian culture. There is pre-dynastic Egyptian history that goes back about another 2500 years. The best-known culture of that period is referred to as the Naqada period, and a number of museums, including the Louvre and the British Museum artifacts. It's divided into Naqada I, II, and III, and the earliest hieroglyphic writing dates to III.

Oh, I'll take any opportunity to talk about Ancient Egypt, LOL.

And perhaps the author is a fan of Stargate? ;-)

Sara wrote: "I'm no expert on Sumer, that's for sure, though I do know a thing or two about Ancient Egypt. The early dynastic period began approximately 3050 BC, and is considered to be contemporary to Sumeria..."

:D Stargate was based on his ideas. I think he wrote his series in the seventies.

It's an interesting book, Sara, although it's bogged down in trying to establish the existence of the 12th planet at the moment. The dating of the civilzation is crucial to his claims, so I'd love to get to the bottom of it. I always found the Sumerian gods to be more rigid and dull than the others, but the author has changed my mind on that score. I do have major issues with his hypothesis so far though. His idea of the gods' technology is very seventies based.

Re apocalyptic thinking, I see aspects to the current belief structure that were also present in the Witchcraft Trials. It is the superstitious belief that all is fated and controlled by a higher being, and that Earth is prey to demons and devils. There is much talk of Satanic uprisings. One GR author/user I know stated in a comment section of a review, that it was lead by celebrities and George W Bush. I kid you not.

The thinking hasn't really changed much in the three hundred years since the mania of the Trials died out. I have encountered, first hand, aspects to such beliefs that really scare me.

I have also started wearing a Pagan symbol, displayed prominently, in order to avoid Rapturists inviting me along again! I'm thinking I may need to get my forehead tattooed. :D

Little wrote: "Sara wrote: "I'm no expert on Sumer, that's for sure, though I do know a thing or two about Ancient Egypt. The early dynastic period began approximately 3050 BC, and is considered to be contempora..."

Wow, I had no idea when I made that Stargate comment. Sometimes intuition is all!

I just read a piece in The Science News a few weeks ago that was talking about the theory that posits another planet in the solar system, with some credibility. I wish I could remember the specifics. It had to do with orbits, distances, and asteroids, I believe, or maybe moons. Dang, another thing for me to go off an try to find.

Demons hold some interest for me. Many cultures have them, and in Ancient Egypt, seeking protection from them is a significant part of the cosmology. There are petitions to the gods and goddesses for this protection that have survived, along with some protection spells. It informs a piece of Heka.

Sara wrote: "Little wrote: "Sara wrote: "I'm no expert on Sumer, that's for sure, though I do know a thing or two about Ancient Egypt. The early dynastic period began approximately 3050 BC, and is considered t..."

:D:D Absolutely.

Now I've gone and offended the person who said I was going to be Raptured, by saying I wasn't into it, thought the concept damaging, and didn't care for a god who would instigate such wholesale suffering and destruction. Not my intention, but what do you say? There is no being diplomatic. I'm sad all the same.

If someone bases their present actions, possibly preparing such an occurrence, how do they react when their belief structure is said to be found wanting? What a challenge, for such individuals, and also for the world in general.

Also, must give a basic outline for the Sumerian gods as the
original pantheon:

Through Sumer, the pantheon radiated out from the fertile crescent, alterations in names, little more.

The Aryans were influenced by the Hittites (think he said the Hittites, close enough) who in turn got it from the Sumerians.

The Aryans took it to India and then of course to the Nordic countries.

The pantheon also travelled up (not literally here of course) to Crete, then into Greece, Rome, blah de blah. You get the picture.

So...the Sumerians started the doomsday--end of the world bit, then it grew to infect the world.

I also think fatalism originated from when we were wee little hominids, hurrying around, trying not to be eaten. A time when the world seemed an impossibly awe inspiring place, full of sudden, unexplainable change. Time to evolve folks.

“It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out.”
― Carl Sagan

A few more links that pertain to this particular brand of crazy:

Hollow Earth:
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=hol...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_E...
http://www.hollowearthnetwork.com/
http://paranormal.about.com/od/hollow...
http://www.ourhollowearth.com/TheLivi...

Hollow Moon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_Moon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaceshi...

Also, you cannot reason with people who believe in this stuff as they cannot alter their beliefs without admitting that they were temporarily lost in the Land of La La. My advice from my recent experience: avoid at all costs. It is not pleasant. Especially if you call them out.

Now I'm back to finishing the books I'm reading on the subject of fatalism, and I think I will have done this topic to death.

LOL, I had the Jehovah's Witnesses find my little place on Maine the other day. Not precisely the same...I just sent them on their way with a relatively calm "not interested". I figured it was best to stay away from the animist shamanic thing.

Thanks for all the links.

Wish I'd nipped it in the bud! So unpleasant. The person radiated an air of wise knowing. I was in a bad place: a lovely friend struck with cancer, several of my farm animals sick, me feeling lost and anxious. We started off talking about the environment, climate change, peak oil, the general state of the world. I didn't see the direction it was going until it was too late. And then what do you say? I'm sorry, but I think you are as mad as a cut snake?

Then they sent me info to back up their claims. Unbelievably ridiculous, contradictory, pseudoscience at it's worst, interwoven with Christian fatalism.

I've offended the person. I've been told they are disappointed and can't see how I can be included with my attitude, blah de blah. It's messed with my head as I really don't like hurting people.

I need a good dose of sunshine and rational thought now.

:) The links are very out there. This sort of thinking must frustrate scientists and geologists no end.

The Jehovah's don't pay us visits anymore. I phoned their head branch and said I'd charge them with trespass if they came onto my land, preaching their doom and gloom again. Haven't seen one since. :D

It happens that way sometimes. They come at you tangentially when you're not at peak, and before you know it, Wham! Perhaps if you look at it tangentially, it will be OK.

I've found that at times I've had to be firm with certain points of view, even in the family. It sounds as if this person would be "offended" by anyone who disagreed with him or her, no matter how pleasantly or calmly presented. And in fact, their perspective has offended you. Don't know if it helps, though this is how I see it.

One of my witch friends routinely hauls out the pentangles, kind of like flashing a cross at a vampire, and flings herbs and worse at them when they come calling. I've got to see if I can find his canned speech, which he did share with me. Priceless, though perhaps a bit uppity American, LOL.

Sara wrote: "It happens that way sometimes. They come at you tangentially when you're not at peak, and before you know it, Wham! Perhaps if you look at it tangentially, it will be OK.

I've found that at ti..."

Love it. A great strategy!

Unfortunately this person doesn't see themselves as a Christian, nor that this is in fact, the Rapture. The info was full of Christian concepts. The terminology too. It was just mixed with New Age ideas as well. Apparently their 'guide' or 'angel' spoke through them. Now I have this 'angel' pissed off with me as well.

I'm going to start a thread on channeling 'spirit guides' or 'angels'. I think there are real dangers to listening too literally to the voices in your head. I have met real psychics in my time. I've been knocked for six by their insights. But there is a fine line, and in this case it has been well and truly crossed.

I seem to have read about millenarian movements in a few odd books lately. They include:

The Art of Not Being Governed: An Anarchist History of Upland Southeast Asia

Society Against the State: Essays in Political Anthropology

and an old one The Ghost Dance: Origins Of Religion

Bryn wrote: "I seem to have read about millenarian movements in a few odd books lately. They include:

The Art of Not Being Governed: An Anarchist History of Upland Southeast Asia

Society Against the State: Es..."

Great Bryn. Thanks for adding them. :):)

I've also made the thread on spirit channeling:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Actually I'm in a difficult predicament at the moment and need advice. I would have messaged you all privately, but quite frankly, I feel it's not a bad thing to raise it here and now.

Right down to it. The friend of a friend I met, who seemed a wise soul--I would say she definitely has psychic ability--who pulled the Rapture thing on me. The one who channels her 'angel'. I'm a bit dense. Takes me a while to catch up. I'm starting to realise the full extent of the possible damage to those around her.

She says her 'angel' tells her these things. I read the articles 'he' wrote. It was one big mind f#@k. Absurd to anyone who knows anything about world history, mythology, and above all science. Hey, I may be a Pagan, oft times mislabeled a witch, who loves weird spiritual ideas, but my suspension of disbelief can only stretch so far.

Now here's the difficult part. This 'angel' has told her to get ready for the Rapture. She's moved vast distances on 'his' advice, has lost friends, children, she's raising flocks for an ark like scenario. Can't keep up with it. Is over run. Broke her arm. Is exhausted. Has had a hysterectomy, despite her doctors saying there was no need to have one at all! Has put her entire life into suspended animation.

I'm concerned. I'm not sure who is talking to her, but sure as bloody hell it's no 'angel' or 'spirit guide'! What the hell do I do? She has a good heart. That is obvious. I have said I think the message of her channeling is damaging. But I am worried: about her life; my friend...

Do I warn her that I think 'something', either her own insanity, or some other thing that she has inadvertently channeled, is messing with her head and screwing up her life?

I'm no use with this sort of thing and yet I say yes. A warning -- a view from you -- cannot go astray and may not fall on deaf ears. You never know. Once I made a limp comment (limp, lame) to a friend about a severe situation, and heard years later that limp expression of protest was the only 'alternative' she ever got and was listened to, was even a big thing.

Bryn wrote: "I'm no use with this sort of thing and yet I say yes. A warning -- a view from you -- cannot go astray and may not fall on deaf ears. You never know. Once I made a limp comment (limp, lame) to a fr..."

I'm thinking the same thing Bryn. I think everyone but her housemate (my friend) has distanced themselves, saying she's mad. I have met genuine psychics. It's a fine line. She's psychic, but I really feel that she is being led astray. Either her own mind or something else is messing with her. This prophesied scenario has a used by date, but as is the nature with this kind of thing, no doubt there will be 'reasons' as to why it doesn't eventuate. Meanwhile, it's not good. Trying to figure out how to put it. Might just go with an honest, heartfelt cry of worry. All the current friendships are effectively spoilt anyway. I won't have my son staying or visiting there anymore. Not happy with that vibe at all.

'Honest, heartfelt cry of worry' can't be the wrong way to go, I must think.

Yep. I think/hope so too. My husband wants me to have no contact. He hates seeing me upset. My head goes into a spin. People short circuit me very quickly. Part of my many reasons for being a recluse. But l think I owe her that much. A very brief cry, nothing more. I have an acute sense of self preservation and avoid drama like the plague. Even now I'm hating the thought of contacting her. I am SO more comfortable relating to my animals! I'm going to hurt her, no matter what. She has invested everything in the words of this 'angel'. But all my warnings signs are flashing. :(

Jaq wrote: "Why am I thinking of the film, Evan Almighty...

I'm afraid it does sound like your friend has gone off the rails. Does she have any family?

There is a limit to how much you can do for people who ..."

She does have family Jaq, but they have already distanced themselves. Apparently she has lost her friends over this too. I didn't get the precise date, in a year and a half? Further times were to be given...:0

I haven't suggested to her that she is being mislead yet, only that I disagree and dislike the messages her 'angel' has told her.

Then I received the 'disappointed in you' email, which was as angry as someone trying hard not to appear angry, could make it. She doesn't believe that 'evil' or as I'd prefer to name it: dodgyness, exists outside of humans. So she is unwilling to contemplate that she has channeled something that is messing with her. And of course, if it's just her own head, then she is well and truly off the rails. Evan Almighty to a T.

My husband wants me to stay well clear. I think you are right I need to for my own sake too. I think I will talk to my friend one more time about it, carefully.

The trouble is they will have to do massive adjustments to face reality again, and already this 'angel' is saying that my reaction is part of my adjustment to the message. Apparently my 'angel' is hanging out with him now. Clearly my 'angel' is miffed with me too. To which I reply with my very best middle finger salute. It's all very weird and creepy. :(

What a difficult situation you find yourself in. I'm so sorry, as there is, IMO, no good path to take. My initial instinct is like Jaq's--to speak with someone in her family who may be able to take more direct, concrete action. It is very difficult to talk, let alone reason with, someone who is following a "voice" directing her actions. That they are detrimental certainly indicates a psychological disturbance of some sort. Are you suspecting that it's no voice insider head but the voice of another real person? That's a different set up all together.

It seems to me that you will feel as if you have done what you could if you mention your reservations to her with what you describe as a "heartfelt cry of worry". I suspect she will dismiss your concerns out of hand.

I understand completely your wish to protect your child in this circumstance. You might consider ways in which he can still spend time with his friend. The other child and your original friend (this woman's housemate?)could still be a part of your life.

I honestly don't know what else to say. This is a difficult choice, especially where you don't know the person all that well. Follow your intuition, and you can't go wrong.

Separately, I am troubled by a doctor who would perform an unnecessary operation at her request. And that's another problem altogether.

Addendum: I was typing this as your last message was posted to the thread. I didn't realize that your friend was also channeling these "angel" messages. That is a bit of a different situation then. IDK, perhaps one more "go" is called for, and then I would back away. I'm not sure I would even try again.

Sara wrote: "What a difficult situation you find yourself in. I'm so sorry, as there is, IMO, no good path to take. My initial instinct is like Jaq's--to speak with someone in her family who may be able to tak..."

I don't know which it is Sara. Her own madness or something she has channeled. Something like the Buddhists concept of the Hungry Ghost. I don't know. She started off by channeling, said he tested her with different personas and voices, now she hears him in her head. Could just be out and out madness. I don't know what to think anymore, but it's put me off the concept of channeling for ever!

Yes, apparently the doctor was horrified and tried to talk her out of it but the 'angel' said it needed to come out (she had a few very minor issues).

I may be able to raise the subject of misleading information being acquired through channeling, in a round about way...Will think further on it. Very very unpleasant.

I hope this has a positive outcome. You are a good friend to even try.

Thanks Sara. I hate hurting people. She is a good person at heart, you can feel it. In a way I wish I hadn't even met her, but then I think it's important that this is raised too.

I just emailed her. Feeling sick in the stomach. What a horrible drama! I'm off to harvest vegetables now and commune with nature. Thank you Bryn, Jaq and Sara for your help! This group is a lifeline for me!

Jaq wrote: "I'm afraid that the bit about your angel hanging out with hers convinces me 100% that it's mental disturbance rather than dodgy channelling. I've known people who do genuine channelling and a few n..."

Yes, I do worry about what else is being said to the child, Jaq.

I sent an email yesterday but have received no reply. I worded it as such to stress that I am sending love and am very worried that she is being mislead. I said that the things this 'being' (or her own head) is saying and counseling her to do, are harmful and fear inducing. That it is NO angel. I also said it was a final heartfelt cry of worry as I'm walking away and will not bother her again.

I see your point about it being pure craziness rather than channeling something dodgy.

I also still have the letter her 'angel' sent me and the articles. I could only stomach a couple of them but did not delete them. Apparently her 'angel' is going to set up a website later in the year. Therefore adding to the mass of craziness already on the internet.

Received a return email. Feeling pretty freaked out. Doesn't help that I'm also reading a book on spirit channeling gone wrong. It sounds all too bloody real. I don't know what to do. She wasn't mad. It all went downhill when she started channeling. I think she's been channeling this dude (I refuse to call anyone an angel from hereon in) for a good twenty years. Now he is always in her head. I'm confused by her email. I don't know if it's a cry for help. It has passages that make me feel just that. But I don't think she poses a risk to anyone but herself.

Going outside now to sit in the sunshine and drink beer. You know this whole situation is really ironic. I'm a total recluse. I haven't visited anyone for donkeys years. Then, when I finally do, I'm thrown into the weirdest possible drama. Not venturing out for a while, except under duress.

I'm seeking professional help in this situation now.

I think this is a wise choice, Gina. It sounds well beyond the ability of you and I to work with this, especially where there is a child involved. I wish you all the best with this situation.

Thanks Sara. I'm really very unnerved now. This is well beyond me.